The Gang of Five

Beyond the Mysterious Beyond => Hobbies and Recreation => Computer and Electronics => Topic started by: F-14 Ace on February 12, 2016, 04:11:15 AM

Title: Blocking ads
Post by: F-14 Ace on February 12, 2016, 04:11:15 AM
I was wondering what everyone's views on blocking ads are.  I used to not block ads, but after getting several malware infections from websites I once trusted, I finally decided to install Adblock Plus and all my malware-containing ad problems vanished into thin air.  Now, however, it seems like more and more sites are trying to bully/guilt trip people with adblock into not blocking their crappy ads.

People block ads for a number of reasons.  They slow down your browser, eat up your bandwidth, install malware, and they're annoying.  I mean, a small ad off to the side somewhere would be plenty sufficient enough to get the point across but no, the unscrupulous sleeze balls running these ad companies feel the need to create ads that have obnoxious video/audio, drop down and obscure your screen, close your browser if you click the "close" button on the ad, redirect you to pages infested with malware, and are just a pain in the backside in general.  As long as ad companies use those despicable tactics, I will continue to block their garbage.

But again, websites that generate money from ads are using increasingly aggressive tactics to combat ab blockers.  One of the worst offenders I've come across if Forbes.  As if their "welcome" screen wasn't obnoxious enough already, now, if it detects that your using an ad blocker, it displays a smart alecky message verbally waving a finger at you and demanding that you disable your ad blocking software.

While searching for a way to bypass it (because let's be honest, no matter what they do, there's always a way), I came across several articles discussing all the ad companies Forbes sells your data to and all the malware their ads have been distributing.  So ya know what?  Screw sites like Forbes!  First they sell your data to scammers and then they try to guilt trip users into not blocking their ads when people get fed up with the malware.  Sites like that can go bankrupt for all I care.  I'm gonna keep blocking their garbage ags.  And yes, I did find a way to bypass anti-ad blocker scripts.  :D  

Title: Blocking ads
Post by: pokeplayer984 on February 12, 2016, 10:27:30 AM
^^You have pretty much listed all of the reasons I have my Adblock on by default.  I'm sorry ad-companies, but until all those places stop with this nonsense, I'm not removing mine.

Now, if your content is good enough that I want to support you, I will disable it.  However, if then your ads prove to be all the bothersome things listed, I turn it right back on.

I consider my ad-blocker an extra layer of protection.  Bottom line!
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: landbeforetimelover on February 12, 2016, 10:59:02 AM
AdBlock Plus sucks.  It was the first ad blocking plugin I tried, but I quickly got tired of it.  Did you know that AdBlock actually uses more resources trying to block the ads then the ads do?  And it's not 100% effective.  What a pain.  Also, there are some sites that load more slowly with AdBlock enabled because it blocks things it shouldn't.

I switched over to Ublock Origin and it's been the best ad blocker I've used BY FAR.

As for blocking ads, the reason is simple.  I'm not stupid enough to click on them anyway.  I buy things based on what I want, not because some company tries to shove a product down my throat.  When I want to go buy something, I go looking for it, not the other way around.  I have NEVER intentionally clicked on an ad and I never will.  

Research suggests that most people are like me and don't pay attention to ads and would never click on them anyway.  Back when I used to run websites with ads on them, my CTR (Click Through Rate) was anywhere between 0.29% and 2.67% unless I used shady tactics to disguise my ads as regular site content.  I imagine CTR is even lower nowadays seeing as everyone knows what an internet ad is and they try to avoid them.

Add to this the fact that 99% of malware and viruses are spread through malicious ads and there's absolutely NO reason why anyone shouldn't be blocking ads nowadays.  Ads had a good run, but it's time to find a better way for sites to make money.  It's not the 1990's and early 2000's anymore.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: vonboy on February 12, 2016, 11:42:17 AM
The problem with a lot of websites nowadays, is they are trying to sell subscription or premium services, in which one of the main advertised feature is no ads. This is a horrible feature, as a lot of people now use ad blockers.

The irony here is that these websites TRAINED their viewers to use ad blockers. These sites showed their viewers that they better find a way around these ads, as they're just getting more obnoxious, and virus ridden by the day.

They've milked ads for just about everything they're worth by now, and now they have to pay the price for it. Just removing the ads isn't enough for a lot of people. Now they have to try to come up with other features or content for people to pay.

Kinda went on a tangent here, but just something I've noticed. :)
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: F-14 Ace on February 12, 2016, 12:18:39 PM
I really love the smartasses who say "well if you don't like the ads then just don't visit those websites!  You're stealing their content!"  If you perscribed to that advice then you'd pretty much have to avoid the internet altogether.  And they're also assuming that those sites contain contend that's actually worth payin for.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: landbeforetimelover on February 12, 2016, 06:14:54 PM
Quote from: F-14 Ace,Feb 12 2016 on  10:18 AM
I really love the smartasses who say "well if you don't like the ads then just don't visit those websites!  You're stealing their content!"  If you perscribed to that advice then you'd pretty much have to avoid the internet altogether.  And they're also assuming that those sites contain contend that's actually worth payin for.
There's no such thing as a website that doesn't have ads except for local websites and Wikipedia (though Wikipedia is CONSTANTLY harassing its visitors about donating).  Local websites don't have ads because it actually hurts them.  For example, I run a computer repair business and have a website.  If I put ads on my site, I'd probably earn around $250/month in advertising revenue.  However those ads would belong to my competitors!  I'd lose WAY more business trying to make that $250/month then it's worth.  I don't think I'd even do it for $5,000/month.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: Ducky123 on February 12, 2016, 08:26:33 PM
I've never used them and currently I don't see any need to install them. Most sites I use regularly don't have a lot of ads (kind of like here on the GoF) so it's not really bothering me much.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: Animeboye on February 12, 2016, 08:47:59 PM
One thing I love to do in my free time is browse various Wikis for franchises I'm a fan of. Before my friends helped me install Adblock, I was always bombarded by really disgusting ads (those weight loss ones I mentioned a few times years ago) or those video ads that were so loud they scared me half to death whenever they'd start playing. I'm very grateful to my friends for helping to put Adblock on my computer. Thanks to them, my Internet browsing has never been better. I don't have to worry about visiting Wikis, Deviantart, etc. and seeing gross ads or having loud, obnoxious ads take me by surprise and scare the crap out of me.

Ads just need to disappear period. Nobody likes them. They're intrusive, annoying, and for the most part, outdated. If certain sites don't like Adblock, then either make the ads more appealing or find a different way to make money because Adblock ain't goin' away anytime soon.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: WeirdRaptor on February 12, 2016, 10:09:56 PM
The alternative is for sites to change you money to look at them.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: pokeplayer984 on February 13, 2016, 01:34:42 AM
One alternative I have come to enjoy are those whom reward those that donate to them.  Let's say you go to a site that have video reviews of movies and they say they'll review a movie of your request if you donate to them.  So, you go and donate to them and put in a note what you want them to review.  They then make that review in their spare time while still working on the ones they are currently doing.

Patreon has become a favorite of creators and reviewers whom want to do something like this.  Heck, Linkara has jumped on the bandwagon and plans to do Big Bad Bettleborgs if he reaches a certain amount.  I seriously hope he makes his goal as I LOVED his analysis of the entirety of Power Rangers.  I really do want to see more of his work on those types of shows.

I might be donating a few bucks to a few people myself to see if they'll do what I want them to.  Tell you how it goes when it happens. :)
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: landbeforetimelover on February 13, 2016, 09:21:36 PM
Quote from: WeirdRaptor,Feb 12 2016 on  08:09 PM
The alternative is for sites to change you money to look at them.
There are plenty of other ways to monetize the website without having annoying ads everywhere.  Create a product or service related to the theme of your website and sell it for a few bucks.  Host a contest or endorse a product.  Ask for donations.  Hire experts in the field and have your users pay to ask them questions directly.  Paid membership article based websites were never popular, even in the 1990's.  Everyone was thankful when they were (mostly) eliminated.  Some websites are trying this crap again today, but it doesn't work.  No one wants to pay to read an article.  Information is plentiful and it's everywhere.  If you can't get the information from one website, you'll find it on another.  

But honestly, even if there was NO financial compensation of any kind, there are plenty of websites out there that are run by volunteers.  There are plenty of people willing to create content and work for free, because they really enjoy what they do and don't consider it work.  Just look at all the free YouTube videos out there.  Sure, they can choose to get compensated by Google for advertising, but no one who's popular on YouTube created all those videos and offered all their help for the sole purpose of being financially compensated.  

My point is, the internet would go on if not another dollar was made by advertisements.  It would be an internet for the people and not the corporations.  If you ask me, that's a good thing.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: action9000 on February 14, 2016, 04:46:14 AM
I love this topic and my friends always give me crap for my opinions on it. :lol

I'm completely with landbeforetimelover on this one.

The fact that AdBlock exists at all is basically saying to the Internet that "The people have spoken!" and that we won't tolerate that form of monetization anymore.

This presents an interesting challenge to internet content creators: Internet content is an interesting case because there isn't any traditional "transaction" going on; there is no "I want your X. I'll pay you Y money to get your X" scenario here.

Instead, the content consumer is LITERALLY required to pay in INCONVENIENCE. In TIME.

This brings up another interesting point:

If I were to skirt around Steam's shop system somehow and download a game for free to my account, that would be considered THEFT and am legally responsible for this as theft - I'm taking a digital product without paying for it by circumventing the monetization system in place.

In the case of AdBlock, however, if I visit a streaming video with AdBlock on a website, I'm STILL circumventing the monitization system in place to get a product for zero cost. The only difference is, rather than getting it free of money, I'm getting it free of inconvenience. At this time, this is NOT considered theft in any legal sense and the only difference is what is being given up by the consumer.

--------------

I completely agree that we need to somehow evolve beyond ad revenue driving free internet content. Consumers are no longer tolerating it and there are completely legal, simple ways to circumvent this entire system. Imagine if our ECONOMY was this easy to circumvent! The world would collapse!! Guess what! The internet has become a big part of the world economy!

It's only a matter of time before either

1) Ad blocking becomes illegal for the same reason that theft is illegal (which seems unlikely as hell and near-impossible to police without wicked amounts of privacy intrusion)

or

2) Content creators need to find another way to monetize because ad revenue will be considered an archaic, primitive, disrespectful-to-the-consumer way to earn their money. It will be shunned and be a way to instantly lose your entire audience, similar to how pay-to-win has become an instant stigma for online games in recent years.

I really don't think ad revenue-driven content is the future. Consumers won't stand for it. The very fact that adblockers exist and are some of the most popular browser addons is proof of this.

Why don't consumers stand for it? Honestly, I think it's simple: There's no need to! Consumers don't like paying more than they have to for anything - it's unwise to do so! Consumers feel cheated and taken-advantage of if they pay more than that. We have words for that: "Screwed"; "getting ripped off" etc. It's something consumers actively AVOID.

I've never gone to wal-mart and given then a little extra money "just because I want to support them". It's ludicrous to most people to do that and makes no economic sense.

In a similar vein, it makes no sense to use the internet without adblock installed. A minority will disable adblock for the sake of "supporting the content creator" but I really feel like this is just making the problem worse and slowing down the evolution of monetization by encouraging the behaviour. To me that's the equivalent of saying "no, you don't have to give me a discount just because it's on sale. I support you so I'll pay full price." Ludicrous!

The system as a whole has evolved to no longer support ad revenue as a monetization scheme. Everyone has an unlimited supply of "get this free!" coupons that they can choose to use on any ad-driven online service. Morality is the only thing preventing people from not exploiting this. It's baffling because, as said before, it makes absolutely NO economic sense NOT to use your coupons when they just magically appear in your wallet and you have an infinite number of them!

At the end of the day, economics will overrule "morality".

---------

As for a solution?

Make money the old fashioned way: Sell people stuff!
If people think your material is worth spending money on it, they will! We've seen this time-and-time again with arguments such as "supporting the content creator". We see sales of blu-rays of their content. We see CD and digital music downloads. We see custom artwork.

There are ways to market your product directly without relying on plugging in some generic ad-revenue system. Rather than making money off traffic, make money by making something that people actually want to BUY.


------------


Content creators:

People aren't assholes (generally). You can give them a fair deal and they're fine with it! People WILL support you if you make it worth their while. Right now, it's NOT worth my while to turn off adblock. Yeah I could disable it for certain sites, blah blah blah...that's a pain. This also does something very interesting:
It puts control...a CHOICE of whether or not you get paid for your product...in MY hands. That's not how economics works. Economics expects there to be a TRANSACTION:

I give you X. You give me Y.

With adblock, the consumer can LITERALLY turn off the "I give you X" part of the equation. This completely breaks economics as we know it. Putting that much power on one side is really a powder keg waiting to blow. It's the most unhealthy thing that could exist in an economy. I'll say it again: The consumer CAN CHOOSE whether or not the producer actually gets paid, regardless of how much product is consumed! That's so mind-blowing! That effectively turns your entire business model into "donation only".


 As a consumer, I don't want to have to bother doing all that. Don't force me to think about morality and whether or not I want you to get credit for your work on my visit here. That's not why I'm here! I just want to enjoy your content! Let me enjoy your content and GIVE ME SOMETHING THAT I WANT TO BUY FROM YOU and I'll buy it from you! If you offer your best content for free and expect me to pay for stuff I don't want, I'm sorry but I'm not giving you any money. If you offer cool stuff for money and I like the stuff I HAVE seen from you, sure, I just might buy it!

Here'a an example: Many online shows offer blu-rays of their online content with some extras. I may really enjoy the online show, which I can watch for free with adblock on. This means you're getting zero revenue from me. Will I buy your blu-ray? Honestly...probably not. A few of us will but a lot of of won't. Why? We've already seen 95% of your content and the only stuff on the blu-ray will probably be stuff that didn't make the cut.

What does this example tell me? Maybe making an online show really isn't that profitable once you take away the ad-revenue. You need to expand out your business and use the online show as a way to grow your audience. Accept that the online show may actually have to run at a loss in order to drive the rest of your business. Just because you have the online show doesn't mean that show is your direct primary source of income. Sell me something cool outside of the show and I'll check it out!
At the end of the day though, maybe online shows just aren't that profitable on their own without ad revenue. Now for my point? THAT ISN'T MY PROBLEM AS A CONSUMER. If what you're trying to sell me can't be monetized, that's your problem. If you depend on ad revenue for your income and we can just adblock it, that's your problem for not diversifying enough in a world where you KNOW adblock exists. Don't blame me for running adblock.

Stop exploiting "clickbait" techniques to drive traffic and view numbers. Start actually marketing the thing you're offering to your audience.

In this world, SERVICES have also become very valuable! Offer TIME with your customers! If they buy or donate, spend time with them in a skype chat or something! Give them a little one-of-a-kind extra something. Making the audience feel special is a great way to improve your image and make money without resorting to ad revenue. A tip of the hat goes a long way!

I hate to say it, but if you can't make money and you're getting ad-blocked to death....so be it! Your product didn't make the cut. Don't blame ad-block. You just didn't evolve. You become too reliant on an outdated monetization scheme.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: F-14 Ace on February 14, 2016, 12:59:32 PM
I completely agree with LBTL and Action here.  These people who try to guilt trip and shame everyine who uses adblock are hypocrites.  If you wanna bring up morals and ethics, these people are just as bad as they claim people who block their ads are.  They're turning a profit at the expense of my time, security, and privacy so screw em.  Wanna make money?  Offer something I think is worth paying for.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: WeirdRaptor on February 14, 2016, 11:46:03 PM
That's all fine and good if your web show is entirely original, but in the case of reviewers, all their content is based on critiquing someone else's product. Not a lot of room for legally creating secondary content.

Also, action, your little rant made you come off as a completely selfish and uncaring individual. So, LBTL and action, for all your talk about "evolving monetization", you offered no real suggestions as to what additional services content creators can supply that you would be willing to pay for. Why is that? I believe the answer is simple: they couldn't do enough to impress you enough to pay them. You've already made up your mind not give them any kind of compensation regardless of what they come up with and they can just go to hell.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: landbeforetimelover on February 15, 2016, 02:55:51 PM
Quote from: WeirdRaptor,Feb 14 2016 on  09:46 PM
That's all fine and good if your web show is entirely original, but in the case of reviewers, all their content is based on critiquing someone else's product. Not a lot of room for legally creating secondary content.

Also, action, your little rant made you come off as a completely selfish and uncaring individual. So, LBTL and action, for all your talk about "evolving monetization", you offered no real suggestions as to what additional services content creators can supply that you would be willing to pay for. Why is that? I believe the answer is simple: they couldn't do enough to impress you enough to pay them. You've already made up your mind not give them any kind of compensation regardless of what they come up with and they can just go to hell.
For your information, I donate to websites all the time.  But they have to provide something valuable.  Bleepingcomputer is a great example.  They provide REAL assistance for malware removal and other computer related problems, completely free.  I can guarantee you, the owner of that website didn't make it so he could become rich off of ads or donations.  He really likes what he does, and I support him for it.  I also just donated to this guy:

http://exirion.net/ssdfanctrl/ (http://exirion.net/ssdfanctrl/)

He created a great little program that will control the HDD fan speed in an iMac where the fan speed controller cable is no longer working or connected (like when you upgrade the HDD to an SSD).  He didn't pollute his website with fake download buttons and ads.  He didn't charge $20 per computer for his program.  It's absolutely FREE on as many computers as you want.  All he asks for is an optional donation (which I gave him).  I've decided to donate $20 per computer that I load with his software.  

I've also donated to half a dozen other websites.  I don't think you understand how little these website owners get from ad clicks.  A few pennies on the dollar, and the click through rate is usually less than 1%.  They would actually make MORE money by offering something valuable for free and asking for donations than screwing everyone that goes to their site and serving them potentially malware infested ads just to POTENTIALLY get a few cents if you click on an ad.  

The problem is, the vast majority of people out there DO NOT offer anything worth donating to or buying.  They want something for nothing, and until now ads have allowed them to do that.  They've literally screwed all their visitors, all for the slim chance of getting a few bucks.

It all comes down to personal preference.  I don't care one iota about news, so I would never donate to the Wall Street Journal.  But I'm sure there are others that would if they were asked to.  Better yet, if they offered additional products and services, they'd make even more.  Instead, they've stuck to the old annoying ad model that screws their visitors.  

Ads aren't good for anyone.  Not the publisher, or the content consumer.  They're good for companies that are promoting crappy products.  If you have a good product, you shouldn't need much advertising.  If you have a crappy product or service, you'll constantly need to be getting new customers to replace the ones that leave or are unsatisfied with your product and demand a refund.  It's that simple.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: pokeplayer984 on February 15, 2016, 03:38:08 PM
Let me show you just how yesterday's news making 6 figures a month with ads is.  I actually got paid to learn this.  I only got ten bucks, but I still got to learn how it's done.

Step 1. Create a Wordpress Blog and make an article.

Step 2. Pay $4.97 a month to run it.

Step 3. Get accepted by Google Ads. (Not as hard as you might think, but still tough.)

Step 4. Set up an e-mail subscription. (Which will have it's own Ads.)

Step 5. Create a Facebook Account.

Step 6. Friend Request as much as possible.

Step 7. Create an article about the site that paid you to find out how to do it with an affiliate link to said site. (Whom have ads themselves so they can pay everyone.)

Step 8. Pay Facebook $5 a day to advertise said article in Step 7.

Even those who make money off of ads know it's yesterday's news and add a step at the end that completely makes it bull-crap.

Oh, and here's a lovely thing I found out.  If you cancel a payment to Facebook, you have to prove it was you just so you can get the option to have them advertise it and the method to get it back is pure bull-crap and was specifically made in case someone hacked your account and not to prove you cancelled a payment.

I have yet to get the privilege back.  I'm better off creating a second Facebook Account just for advertising purposes.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: WeirdRaptor on February 15, 2016, 04:15:36 PM
Quote
If you have a good product, you shouldn't need much advertising.
In a fair world, yes, but the situation is never cut-and-dry. I was beginning to agree with you until you said this, LBTL. Actually, the sad truth is that there are many good products out there that DO need more attention, a lot more, but get overlooked despite the best efforts of their creators. The fact is this world is not fair and despite what action said, people generally are assholes (our history is 90% war, abuse, and discrimination for a reason, you know). While I believe that virus-inducing ads should be gotten rid of, I think the option of ads should be left open at least for people just getting off the ground.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: landbeforetimelover on February 15, 2016, 04:55:16 PM
Quote from: WeirdRaptor,Feb 15 2016 on  02:15 PM
Quote
If you have a good product, you shouldn't need much advertising.
In a fair world, yes, but the situation is never cut-and-dry. I was beginning to agree with you until you said this, LBTL. Actually, the sad truth is that there are many good products out there that DO need more attention, a lot more, but get overlooked despite the best efforts of their creators. The fact is this world is not fair and despite what action said, people generally are assholes (our history is 90% war, abuse, and discrimination for a reason, you know). While I believe that virus-inducing ads should be gotten rid of, I think the option of ads should be left open at least for people just getting off the ground.
There are plenty of places to "advertise" your new product or service without paying for pop up ads and sidebar image ads.  Social media is huge, but so are forums, communities, and articles on popular websites.  If your product or service is GOOD, then people will share it.  If it's not good, it will require a TON of advertising just to get off the ground and will require constant advertising to keep a profit because of all the people that would never use the product or service again and would never recommend it to others (because it just wasn't good).  

There are exceptions.  I believe in local ads on Google and other search engines.  If a person is actually LOOKING for something, displaying them relative ads is absolutely fine because that's what they're actually looking for.  

The point is, there are tons of crappy products and services out there that only exist because of ads.  If the opportunity to mass advertise didn't exist, they would have died in their infancy because not many people actually like the product/service.

And ads aren't worth it unless you already have TONS of traffic.  With 1,000 visitors a day, you'd be lucky to make $10 a day in ads.  That means to make $10,000/month (not a lot when you consider the costs of running some of these larger websites), you have to have 1 MILLION visitors per month!
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: WeirdRaptor on February 15, 2016, 06:00:47 PM
Quote
There are plenty of places to "advertise" your new product or service without paying for pop up ads and sidebar image ads. Social media is huge, but so are forums, communities, and articles on popular websites. If your product or service is GOOD, then people will share it. If it's not good, it will require a TON of advertising just to get off the ground and will require constant advertising to keep a profit because of all the people that would never use the product or service again and would never recommend it to others (because it just wasn't good).
In a fair world, yes. Everything you just said is an example of how things go in ideal conditions and under the assumption that nothing good EVER gets overlooked or that the competition doesn't play dirty. Good products and services DO get overlooked, everyday, and the businesses that spawn them DO unfairly go under. Its not a matter of their being exceptions to this, its a matter of it being an everyday thing, because this is an unfair world in which solid talent and know-how guarantees nothing. Luck is a big part of it, too. There are a million reasons a business can go under, and the answer is not always "because the product/advertising sucked". There are many factors that can go into it and you can't act like failed business/product was a failure due to lack of quality. There are many cases where that is true, but there many where it wasn't, too.

Quote
The point is, there are tons of crappy products and services out there that only exist because of ads. If the opportunity to mass advertise didn't exist, they would have died in their infancy because not many people actually like the product/service.
Or people just didn't pay any attention or overlooked it, which is just as likely. You do not hold all the answers as to why and how something succeeds and fails and you need to stop acting like you do.

Quote
And ads aren't worth it unless you already have TONS of traffic. With 1,000 visitors a day, you'd be lucky to make $10 a day in ads. That means to make $10,000/month (not a lot when you consider the costs of running some of these larger websites), you have to have 1 MILLION visitors per month!
At least its something, though. I said it should be an option.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: landbeforetimelover on February 15, 2016, 08:43:14 PM
Quote from: WeirdRaptor,Feb 15 2016 on  04:00 PM
In a fair world, yes. Everything you just said is an example of how things go in ideal conditions and under the assumption that nothing good EVER gets overlooked or that the competition doesn't play dirty. Good products and services DO get overlooked, everyday, and the businesses that spawn them DO unfairly go under. Its not a matter of their being exceptions to this, its a matter of it being an everyday thing, because this is an unfair world in which solid talent and know-how guarantees nothing. Luck is a big part of it, too. There are a million reasons a business can go under, and the answer is not always "because the product/advertising sucked". There are many factors that can go into it and you can't act like failed business/product was a failure due to lack of quality. There are many cases where that is true, but there many where it wasn't, too.
You have to work VERY hard to get a product or service off the ground.  What I don't like is some company with millions of dollars launching a crappy product or service and pumping millions into advertising to turn a tidy profit.  Hard work is required.  If you're not willing to do the hard work and just want to throw money at the problem, then you shouldn't be in business.  

The point in all of this is that without ads, everything would be fine.  Website owners would either provide real value for their visitors or go under.  Companies would either put a lot of work and effort into their products and they would be very good, or they'll fade into oblivion.  I'm not saying to eliminate ads completely overnight.  That would be disastrous.  But ads will be pretty much eliminated eventually by a large percentage of internet users using ad blockers.  Those websites will either adapt or die.  If they're smart they've started to do this already and provide real value so they can keep their audience and stay afloat during the transition.  If not, they're going to sink and no one is going to miss them.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: action9000 on February 15, 2016, 09:50:29 PM
Quote
What I don't like is some company with millions of dollars launching a crappy product or service and pumping millions into advertising to turn a tidy profit.
*Cough* Playstation Move and Microsoft Kinect *Cough*

Excuse me.  :p


Quote
. So, LBTL and action, for all your talk about "evolving monetization", you offered no real suggestions as to what additional services content creators can supply that you would be willing to pay for. Why is that? I believe the answer is simple: they couldn't do enough to impress you enough to pay them.
You're right. In their current state, they don't make anything cool that I would be interested in purchasing from them. That doesn't mean they're incapable of producing something that I may be interested in purchasing. I simply mean that, at this moment, they don't offer anything I'm personally interested in purchasing.

Let's take the Angry Video Game Nerd and his website, Cinemassacre, as an example. I've been watching their material for countless years now, many of those years with adblock. I generally love the work they've done with AVGN, James and Mike Mondays, Board James, etc.

Do they offer anything for sale that I'd be willing to drop money on? No, I'm sorry but they don't. Since you asked me to come up with some ideas for stuff they could produce that I'd actually be interested in paying for, how about:

1) Custom, high quality, AVGN or Cimemassacre-themed controllers for retro and modern consoles, ideally also with USB connections. That'd be cool and I'd pay a premium for an AVGN N64 controller, for example. N64 controllers are tough to find as it is and an AVGN one would be awesome! I'd even be willing to pay a premium for it over a new controller on Amazon or something, especially if it was custom-built. Imagine, a custom line of higher-than-official-quality controllers. That's cool!
These are the guys who have connections to people who can build Nintoasters and get Famicom systems with A/V outputs and longer controller wiring. I'm sure they can build custom controllers.

2) How about, pay a small donation to put a James and Mike Mondays game request higher up on a queue? The amounts and "power" of this queue pushing could be limited to prevent it from becoming a clusterfuck but it would allow people to effectively pay for the content they want.

3) AVGN-themed video game cases, especially for cartridge-based consoles. Again, for people with large NES, SNES or N64 collections could get AVGN-themed storage units, briefcases, etc for their games. Cool!

4) A CD with various remixes of the AVGN theme music...or a DVD or blu-ray with music VIDEOS to go along with them.

Is this hard work? Sure but it doesn't rely on ad revenue to pay the bills.

Let's face it - I'm not a marketing major. I don't have all the answers. But that's also called being an "entrepreneur". As an entrepreneur, it's your job to make something that people are willing to spend money on. If I had the answer to this problem I'd be doing it and already being the next big thing on the internet.

Now let's list some stuff they they HAVE released which is actually pretty cool:

- An AVGN Movie. This has sold reasonably well. I haven't picked it up, however, because I basically got the gist of it from Nostalgia Critic's review of it. It didn't look all that great to me so I didn't buy the movie.

- An AVGN video game. This is even available on steam! That's an awesome idea!

- Typical merchandise: T-Shirts, etc. Nothing wrong with going that direction!

---------

Something else I don't know is how much money they get paid for showing up to conventions. The AVGN is often at various game conventions and I'm positive he isn't doing that for free.
Why do I bring this up? Basically, I'm extremely convinced that Cinemassacre isn't hurting for cash. I don't have much incentive to turn off my extremely convenient ad block in an effort to support what is essentially the "microsoft" of gaming videos. They don't exactly need my 3 cents a month to get by. I'm sorry but my sanity is more valuable to me than you getting my 3 cents of ad revenue.
The AVGN has basically reached "celebrity" status at this point. I don't feel like he's exactly hurting for cash. I have no reason to worry about his well-being and lack of ability to continue to produce content. Yes, this is me being selfish but again, it's time and effort for me as a consumer to go out of my way to make sure he gets his 3 cents a month from me. When I know he's raking in big bucks and that 3 cents a month is insignificant, I'm just not going to make a big deal out of it.

Again, because that control is in my hands, the hands of the consumer, that's why ad revenue systems are inherently broken.

----------

Now there are some things I'd "pay" them for right now if they were more practical. For example, I've become a "Fan" of sorts of Cinemassacre over the years and I think it would be great to see them at a convention.

Problem: I live in Calgary, Alberta. Video game conventions don't really come here and I can't afford the trip to PAX or wherever. Yeah, if the AVGN came to a show in Calgary (or Edmonton or Banff or somewhere close-ish) I'd be psyched and I'd go!

Now suddenly all that free video watching I got all these years is paying off for HIM! He hooked me as a fan and now I'm part of the fanbase that makes it worth the convention paying HIM to have him there. The videos acted as an investment to build the fanbase.

The videos are acting as a support for his other ways to make money. That's what I'm getting at! What the "other ways" are is a case-by-case basis for each content creator. They need to find their own direction for how to do this and this is what makes the true marketing geniuses and business people of the world.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: WeirdRaptor on February 15, 2016, 11:38:09 PM
Now those are some good suggestions! There'd be a few copyright loops to get through, but if they could get Nintendo to agree to something like that, that would be cool, as you said. Thank you for giving such a thoughtful answer instead of raging against independent content creators like LBTL seems to want to.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: action9000 on February 17, 2016, 09:07:33 PM
Alright, so I have a new beef with www.wired.com

I followed a link to a wired.com article from Facebook. When I got to the page, I was greeted with THIS full-screen overlay:

(http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h141/action9000/adblock_zps3eezi08w.png)

Notice: No "Close" button. No X. No "Got it, thanks. Let me continue."
They obnoxiously obscured the ENTIRE page because I had an adblocker installed...and there was no way to get rid of the overlay! :blink:

I actually had to reload the page in another tab in the same browser session in order to get rid of it. I was literally STUCK on that overlay making that browser tab entirely useless.

[EDIT] Oh wait, guess what! Even in the reloaded page, as soon as I started scrolling down again, the overlay came back in the new tab! You literally cannot access this content with an adblocker enabled.

[EDIT] Alright, I found a workaround. If I right-click and download the HTML page, I can view it offline to get around the overlay popup. That's what you've resorted me to, Wired!  :p  I win:

(http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h141/action9000/offline%20mode_zps9vlpdfrt.png)
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: DarkHououmon on February 17, 2016, 09:41:34 PM
That is strange. I just went to wired.com myself and I was able to access the page as well as one of the articles without anything popping up. I have Adblock Plus enabled; I checked to make sure that it was turned on. And wired.come does work just fine for me.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: F-14 Ace on February 17, 2016, 09:45:17 PM
Action, here's a solution that may help.  http://technewsreporter.blogspot.com/2015/...t-block-ad.html (http://technewsreporter.blogspot.com/2015/12/how-to-bypass-websites-that-block-ad.html)

It works for Forbes so it might work in your situation as well.  There is nothing I hate more right now than websites that display smartass messages like the one in your screencap so I'm gonna try this just to flip these idiots the middle finger.

EDIT: Someone else said they got around the problem in Wired.com by just disabling Javascript on the page.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: DarkHououmon on February 18, 2016, 01:33:23 AM
I kept on enabling Javascript on that page to see if anything would happen. But even with JS fully enabled as well as Adblock Plus, the sight still works just fine for me. I'm not really sure why I have no issues with wired.com but other people do.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: action9000 on February 18, 2016, 02:22:54 AM
Quote
It works for Forbes so it might work in your situation as well. There is nothing I hate more right now than websites that display smartass messages like the one in your screencap so I'm gonna try this just to flip these idiots the middle finger.

EDIT: Someone else said they got around the problem in Wired.com by just disabling Javascript on the page.

I tried the Referer Control extension and sadly it didn't help in this case. I"ll keep it anyway though. It's a nice one. Thanks for sharing! :)

Quote
   I kept on enabling Javascript on that page to see if anything would happen. But even with JS fully enabled as well as Adblock Plus, the sight still works just fine for me. I'm not really sure why I have no issues with wired.com but other people do.
That's odd. I'd say enjoy it.  :lol
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: landbeforetimelover on February 19, 2016, 01:10:56 AM
These websites just don't get it.  I will NEVER click on an ad!  I don't care what it says.  It's not the 1990's anymore.  Most people are smart enough not to click on ads.  I'm sure the majority of ad clicks come from seniors that are new to computers, or mistaken clicks.  Whether you block my ability to view your website with an ad blocker or not, I never would have clicked on the ad anyway!  You're not losing money because people have ad blockers.  You're losing money because people no longer click on ads!
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: action9000 on February 19, 2016, 05:53:00 PM
Just to add to my wired.com argument:

Hey, Wired, did you notice that by complaining about my Adblocker, you wasted both of our bandwidth?  :bang  :p

I reloaded the page 2-3 times to see if I could get rid of the overlay. There's a few MB of data transfer each time.

I also downloaded the HTML page to my hard drive.

I also came back and loaded it again because I needed to screenshot it for the GoF post.

In other words, your anti-adblocker campaign increased your bandwidth cost to serve me by about 400-500%? Not to mention the anti-adblock javascript code that gets sent to EVERY SINGLE user who connects to your pages (whether they have adblock or not) which is inflating how much bandwidth your pages use.

Well done guys. That bandwidth probably costs you more than I'd be worth when I don't click your ads anyway (right LBTLover?) :lol

If I was using adblockers to conserve bandwidth on a low-data-cap connection, I'd be unhappy with wasting bandwidth like that. Luckily I don't have a low cap so I don't care. The only one who suffers is Wired.  :p
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: F-14 Ace on March 04, 2016, 04:22:10 AM
So, I heard where Yahoo has actually started locking people out of their email accounts for using adblock.  The more these companies try to pull this garbage, the more people are gonna resent them for it.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: Ducky123 on March 05, 2016, 09:24:24 AM
Yeah, as long as not all service providers punish people for using adblock, there'll always be a service, who tolerates people using it, that people will switch to.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: pokeplayer984 on March 05, 2016, 11:08:45 AM
Well, more reason for me to stick to Google and their e-mail service.  At least they make so much that they know blocking those who use Adblock will only hurt you.  I mean, their company CREATED ads and even they know better.  How ironic.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: pokeplayer984 on April 04, 2016, 12:02:57 AM
I've run into a simple dilemma.  I want to support someone by disabling my adblock.  However, he has chosen one of the worst places to have his videos on that gives revenue with ads.  For all that I go through to bring you all episodes of MLP, I still don't understand why EqD goes with Dailymotion.

I run into the problem of the videos restarting at times and to top it off, take a look at this.  My adblock version shows just how many ads it blocks.  Here's the final count from a 28-minute episode.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1575/26131914872_70d7bcde18_o.png) (https://flic.kr/p/FPbTSq)

I want to support him, but I don't want to be interrupted so many times.  Yeah!  Suggestions?
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: F-14 Ace on April 04, 2016, 12:39:54 AM
Perhaps he should start a donation pool.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: pokeplayer984 on April 09, 2016, 12:40:51 PM
I found that the guy does have a Patreon Account.  I'll donate to him once my dentist appointment is out of the way. (If things go well.) I need an idea of how much I can give, but I can't be sure until I have my teeth checked.  Trust me, with my track record, I have reason to wait until then.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: F-14 Ace on April 22, 2016, 12:05:34 PM
I came across another online debate where sites that use advertising are trying to guilt tip people into not blocking their crap. One particularly disgusting example was a website that was an actual vendor website!  This website (I'm not gonna say the name) is an online catalogue website that sells products to people, and the owner actually had the gall to complain about people blocking 3rd party ads, which they claim helps support their site.  Again, this is a website that already makes a profit by selling products, and then they're greedy enough to try and make MORE money by using intrusive 3rd party ads.  They claim they block people who block the 3rd party ads.  So not only are they greedy, but they're also stupid for limiting their customer base, not to mention rude.  That's literally like saying that I can't come into your store unless I pay you money upfront before I'm allowed to even see what you're selling. I have no pity for them and I hope they go bankrupt!  They're probably a scam anyway.

As I have already stated, ads compromise the security of your computer, eat up your memory and bandwidth, slow down your browser, whore your information out to all sorts of unscrupulous people, track you across the internet trying to sell you garbage that you don't want, infect your computer with malware, obscure your screen with obnoxious flashing animations and drop down windows that block your screen, and generally just ruin your online experience.  Then they have the gall to claim that blocking those ads is somehow morally wrong.  What's morally wrong is making a profit at the expense of my time, security, and privacy.

I have no sympathy for advertisers.  They are completely unregulated and have gotten way out of hand.  Ad blockers are basically the consumer's way of putting their foot down and saying that enough is enough.  Clean up your act or become irrelevant.

As for snotty online publishers whining about their loss of revenue, I'm gonna be brutally honest here.  99.9999999% of the time, your content isn't worth paying for, especially when literally any human being who is literate and has access to a computer can create content.  These people who think they can earn a paycheck by sitting on their butts all day and posting blogs are living in a fantasy world.  Very few people turn a profit and even fewer make any serious money.  Publishing content is a hobby, not a career.   Stop treating it like a career and get a real job!  You wanna publish for a living?  Become a journalist or an author.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: action9000 on April 22, 2016, 04:02:32 PM
Quote
What's morally wrong is making a profit at the expense of my time, security, and privacy.
^ This! You summed up the issue right there in that one sentence.  :exactly

Perhaps, and it's disappointing I'm sure for many content creators, some things just...aren't sellable. This is why hobbies exist.

I fully understand the concept of being a professional entertainer and I highly respect those who do it well and can make a living at it. The concept of basically monetizing everything anyone does is relatively new and we primarily have advertising, reality shows and the Internet to "thank" for it. I'm not convinced this is necessarily a good thing. Fun needs to be fun for its own sake sometimes. Putting an ad plug in front of everything just sucks all the purity out of it because now it just looks like they're doing it for the money, not because they're actually having fun and sharing a good experience with the world.

I get it; people (myself included) want ways to make money outside their shitty jobs.  I truly feel like there's a point where someone crosses the line between making something that has great production value and needs the funding versus someone who's just whoring themselves out because they can. There's no sense of restraint and there's no reason NOT to run ads on everything you post up.

This is the fundamental problem; because it's so easy to monetize everything, that's what the entertainment (and online content in general) world has become, to the point where it's almost sickening. As a result people are starting to ad-block which is forcing this business model out of favour. How will the world respond? I don't know yet but I do agree with the logic that I shouldn't be held accountable for adblocking your stuff just because your revenue system wasn't sustainable.

Quote
As for snotty online publishers whining about their loss of revenue, I'm gonna be brutally honest here. 99.9999999% of the time, your content isn't worth paying for, especially when literally any human being who is literate and has access to a computer can create content
Exactly. If you want to actually earn a living producing interesting content, that is real, hard work like anything else. If you stand out, you will make a living. For 99.99% of content creators, what you're producing isn't worth anything. I'm sorry; it's not. With the sheer volume of content out there, if all of it earned creators enough to make a living wage the economy would inflate to the point of being useless.


Quote
Publishing content is a hobby, not a career. Stop treating it like a career and get a real job! You wanna publish for a living? Become a journalist or an author.
I'm just starting my new career path as a game composer / music producer. The point where it progressed beyond "hobby" was the point I started sinking countless hours of real work into it. Yes I work from home on my own hours (hence why I'm here at 2 PM on a Friday) but I have deadlines to meet, quality control, expectations, like any normal job. It's incredible the sheer number of hours that goes into it. There's no shortcut or easy money - if you want to make it as a content creator of any type, you just have to do the grunt work.

Sounds like we're in agreement here, F-14  :angel
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: F-14 Ace on April 22, 2016, 07:50:43 PM
There are actually companies suing ad block companies and trying to have them outlawed.  Some even go so far as to toss people who block ads into the same bandwagon as people who pirate music and videos.  I wonder how long it will be before blocking ads gets you a several hundred thousand dollar fine and sever years in the slammer.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: ADFan185 on April 22, 2016, 07:51:13 PM
Well yes adds can be annoying but sites need ads to pay for it.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: action9000 on April 22, 2016, 08:54:03 PM
Quote from: ADFan185,Apr 22 2016 on  04:51 PM
Well yes adds can be annoying but sites need ads to pay for it.
In the immediate I agree but I really feel like this is a sign that the monetization system needs to somehow evolve. Basically one of three things can happen:

1) Status quo: Some people adblock and are shamed for it. These people justify adblocking in their own way but others tend to frown on adblocking. Business as usual.

2) Adblocking becomes so common that ad revenue is no longer viable for many content providers. A new "web...what are we on? Web 4.0" may need to evolve out of this.

3) Adblocking becomes illegal like you pointed out and this opens a RIDICULOUS can of worms in terms of human/ constitutional rights and per-country laws. As a Canadian, we're still pretty relaxed on anti-piracy laws (don't seed excessively and nobody cares). I can't imagine the Canadian government passing an anti-adblock law in the foreseeable future.

This is by far the scariest option to me because it suggests that ad producers have more rights than consumers. It basically puts ads in a magic bubble where they're protected moreso than any other content. I can't see how this is justifyable: If I produce a product and nobody wants it, I go bankrupt. I can't just go get a law passed that says people need to magically be interested in my product. No! My monetization scheme isn't working! Tough for me, I need to find another way!

Making adblock illegal is spitting in the face of that logic. Making adblock illegal is basically saying, "Yes, ads are the perfect solution to this problem and free of any further evolution. You'll be bombarded by ads for the rest of your life and we love everything about that! MUAHAHA". Making adblock illegal is preventing the evolution of our content monetization system!
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: F-14 Ace on April 22, 2016, 08:58:13 PM
Quote from: action9000,Apr 22 2016 on  07:54 PM
Quote from: ADFan185,Apr 22 2016 on  04:51 PM
Well yes adds can be annoying but sites need ads to pay for it.
In the immediate I agree but I really feel like this is a sign that the monetization system needs to somehow evolve. Basically one of three things can happen:

1) Status quo: Some people adblock and are shamed for it. These people justify adblocking in their own way but others tend to frown on adblocking. Business as usual.

2) Adblocking becomes so common that ad revenue is no longer viable for many content providers. A new "web...what are we on? Web 4.0" may need to evolve out of this.

3) Adblocking becomes illegal like you pointed out and this opens a RIDICULOUS can of worms in terms of human/ constitutional rights and per-country laws. As a Canadian, we're still pretty relaxed on anti-piracy laws (don't seed excessively and nobody cares). I can't imagine the Canadian government passing an anti-adblock law in the foreseeable future. This is by far the scariest option to me because it suggests that ad producers have more rights than consumers.
Canada is sounding better and better all the time.  If only I didn't hate cold weather so much...
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: action9000 on June 15, 2016, 06:41:28 PM
I recently learned about a Chrome browser extension called Ghostery.

It's an extension specifically designed to let you use websites that don't function properly with adblockers turned on (like my Wired example earlier in this thread). Basically, if you use the extension, the website you're on doesn't know you have an adblocker so it functions normally. You, however, can continue blocking ads as normal.

It does a lot of privacy stuff as well, for those of your interested in protecting online privacy a little more.

I don't know if it's 100% effective but it's worked on every site I've tried it on so far.

Check it out!

[EDIT] Cool! With Ghostery running and configured to block "All Advertisers", I can completely disable my other adblocker extension. Ghostery is doing a much better job of working invisibly than my old ad blocker.
If you're having any problem with your adblocker being detected, check out Ghostery. When you tell it to block all ads, it seems to have zero problems with site compatibility so far. :) Note that you'll probably still need a good old-fashioned adblocker for Youtube videos and similar stuff like that.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: ADFan185 on June 15, 2016, 09:56:02 PM
Okay I'll give this a chance tomorrow and see if I like it.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: action9000 on June 16, 2016, 04:31:23 PM
The latest trend I'm seeing of Youtube content creators to get ad revenue from people who adblock is a clever, sneaky workaround:

They simply mention their sponser/ad in their video directly, rather than use a separate, automated system. Here are two examples that are doing this:

Extra Credits, sponsored by Audible. You can hear the ad near the beginning of the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H97gCCJFXA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H97gCCJFXA)


Linus Tech Tips, sponsored by a number of companies. This example is for Crunchyroll. Their ads are always at the end of their videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkiZdSBux9E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkiZdSBux9E)

The nice thing about how Linus does it: Once you get used to the fact that all of their videos are nothing but ads at the end, you can simply stop watching at that point. For just sitting back and letting autoplay do its thing though, this is a bit of a pain. For the most part, I can live with this because it's very simply to get around.

Title: Blocking ads
Post by: ddmkm122 on June 16, 2016, 09:54:54 PM
I try not to, but, my dad apparently has ad-blocking software on his Kindle Fire HD, which I sometimes use!
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: ADFan185 on June 17, 2016, 02:03:35 PM
Well some YouTube partners need the ad revenue to make a living off of.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: action9000 on June 17, 2016, 05:05:18 PM
Quote from: ADFan185,Jun 17 2016 on  12:03 PM
Well some YouTube partners need the ad revenue to make a living off of.
The previous 2 pages of this thread address both sides of this issue. :)

At this moment, yes, I agree, but I'm not convinced that's a sustainable revenue model. See my earlier posts for details.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: DarkHououmon on June 17, 2016, 06:06:40 PM
Vimeo has an alternative to ads called Tip Jar. Instead of having ads playing in the video and the content creator getting money that way, instead people can decide if they want to tip the video or not.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: action9000 on June 17, 2016, 09:13:48 PM
Quote from: DarkHououmon,Jun 17 2016 on  04:06 PM
Vimeo has an alternative to ads called Tip Jar. Instead of having ads playing in the video and the content creator getting money that way, instead people can decide if they want to tip the video or not.
That method of revenue generation makes a lot of sense to me. It seems consistent with the nature of the content being provided.
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: F-14 Ace on June 18, 2016, 09:50:17 PM
Deviantart seems to have jumped on the anti-adblock bandwagon now with an annoying banner that pops up demanding that users disable adblock and allow their malware-infested ads to load.  The hilarious irony is that you can just block the banner with your ad blocker.  This seems to have triggered a backlash from the community. (http://www.deviantart.com/browse/all/?order=5&q=adblock)
Title: Blocking ads
Post by: pokeplayer984 on June 19, 2016, 11:59:16 PM
Why wording your ads correctly is very important.  Here's one someone got on YouTube.

Quote
For some reason youtube is advertising to me electric devices of a personal nature. I didn't think such adds where on youtube.

What it was.

Quote
I clicked the link out of morbid curiosity, turns out they were curling irons, but the add suggested something else and I have never seen hair irons shaped like that.

Man, what a way to mess up.