Should the JEDI END?

[Chomper98]

After watching the trailer for the Last Jedi, I want to hear your guy's opinions on the potential game changer this might bring.

[Gentle Sharptooth]

I frankly are weary of how Disney darkens franchises. Instead of Sleeping Beauty, Maleficent, the evil witch is good and Sleepy Beauty a brat. This is entirely out of Luke Skywalker's character, "You have failed your highness, I am a Jedi like my father before me," (Luke Skywalker, Return of Jedi) to which the Emperor responds, "So be it Jedi" and uses Force Lightning on Luke. Luke was willing to die at hands of Emperor than turn to Dark Side, and it is because Luke believed in good, the Jedi still in Darth Vader, that Vader became Anakin again and destroyed the Dark Lord of the Sith. Contrast that with this new line in The Last of Jedi, "The Jedi must end." Wait what? It is because of Jedi that Vader became Anakin again, that he was redeemed and became a Force Ghost. This is an entire departure from Luke's character. What made Luke unique was that he resisted the allure of Bogan (The Dark Side), in contrast to Darth Vader who gave in.

Frankly, I had hoped Disney was going to make Luke the Master of Yavin IV Temple of the Jedi, but instead they seem to be doing a knock off of the horrible story "Dark Empire (Darkhorse Comics" where Luke turns to the Dark Side. Ugh.

[Dracorider19]

I saw the trailer and I gotta say, there are some seriously epic moments which I will await to see by the time The Last Jedi comes out. As for who is the "last Jedi", I'm certain it is Luke, and we'll see how the title plays out in the film.
I'm also eager to see more of Supreme Leader Snoke, and I hear he will be made with practical effects, in contrast to the motion-capture CGI effects in The Force Awakens. Can't wait to see what Snoke will do and learn his motives.

[Nick22]

Luke is almost certainly the last of the Jedi,  and his daughter represents the new order whatever that may be. there is no council anymore, nor in the new order will there be, the old Council was too tied to politics and trying to  represent its own interests. Luke has become Obi wan, in a way, and is stepping out of his 30 years a hermit phase. i just hope they dont kill off luke as they did obi wan.

[Gentle Sharptooth]

Luke is almost certainly the last of the Jedi,  and his daughter represents the new order whatever that may be. there is no council anymore, nor in the new order will there be, the old Council was too tied to politics and trying to  represent its own interests. Luke has become Obi wan, in a way, and is stepping out of his 30 years a hermit phase. i just hope they dont kill off luke as they did obi wan.

According to EU/Legends Luke was suppose to create a New Jedi Order, which even allows marriage. However, it seems instead that he is reduced to Kenobi hermit status. I am not sure yet if Rey is his daughter, she might just be powerful Force User with no relation to Skywalkers or Solos.

[Highsoar]

No, they shouldn't.  What GS just mentioned is is the way it should have stayed. Grand Master Luke is way better and hooray for Luke/Mara.

[WeirdRaptor]

I think the scene where he says that will be early on in the film. The thing we all need to remember is that Luke probably isn't in his right state of mind. His beloved nephew murdered his other students and he doubtlessly felt the moment Han died through the Force. Luke will doubtlessly begin the next film bitter and jaded, but will probably get his vigor back over the course of it.

[F-14 Ace]

And people are already screaming about how it'll rip off Empire Strikes Back, Ray is a Mary Sue, feminism, affirmative action, "real fans" shouldn't watch it, blaw blaw blaw.  I'll reserve judgment for when the movie comes out but from the looks of things it looks awesome.  The haters can just go pound sand and stick to watching the prequel since they think those were better.

[Sovereign]

I fear that this film is beyond redemption for me because of the characters. Granted, Rogue One was a very good film but I don't think it's possible to save this "main" trilogy anymore. I must say, Rey is one of the biggest Mary Sues I've seen and it's hard not to think that feminist ideals shaped the character. I'm not going to say I'm a SW fan, most of the films are rather fun to watch but that's about it. Additionally, KOTR and Battlefronts are great games but the main plot of the films isn't that great IMO. Bioware had far better ideas about how to handle the potential of SW than Lucas or Disney. They can probably still save Luke's and the Jedis' face but if they don't the Jedi might as well end for me. Most likely Rey will end up as some kind of deity of the Force at this pace.

And to comment on the greatest dispute, Force Awakens vs Prequels, I'd go with the latter.   The reason is, the prequels music is close to the best in the entire franchise + the memes are overflowing!   Force Awakens wasn't even fun whereas in the prequels we could always follow Hayden Christensen's hilarious performance with great interest.  

[Dracorider19]

Well, Rey may come across as a Mary Sue at times, but we must remember that she didn't display any strong Force-related abilities in the beginning, and she couldn't immediately defend herself against Kylo Ren when he kidnapped her and it took a considerable time for Rey to resist his attempt to get the map to Luke from her mind.

Sure, she is strong with the Force, but she had to learn the basics of it, even for someone as Force-sensitive as her. And the events in the film she experienced led to her Force abilities "awaken" (yes, possible connection to the title) such as the battle scenes and the visions she got when she touched Luke's old lightsaber.
 All those events helped her learn at the end to defeat Kylo Ren, though keep in mind that Kylo brought her down at first and Finn had to fight Kylo himself before she recovered enough to fight Kylo.
So in short, if you consider Rey's experiences before her actual Force-ability dispays, she really isn't a Mary Sue, but a decent portrayal of a heroine whose abilities gradually develop over the course of the film, and more so in the next film.

[Sovereign]

Well, if we compare the pace of learning between Rey and Luke, the latter wasn't really that strong at the end of the New Hope. He was strong enough to fight off the stormtroopers but even with a proper trainer, he was nowhere strong enough to take on Vader. Even at the end of the whole trilogy that wasn't the case whereas Rey beats everyone by the end of the first film without training! Kylo is weaker than Vader but he does little to improve the film. Sure, it could have been boring to see all this training again but that's the problem with remaking old storylines. If the only explanation here is that the force merely "awakens" inside Rey, she's a Mary Sue. Also, some flashbacks from a lightsaber don't help. After all, even if one is strong with the force, they should have some serious training to control it. And we're not talking about the Phantom Menace because it is written so realistically.

[Dracorider19]

Well if anyone thinks Rey learned too fast and became too good, The Last Jedi hopefully will show more of her abilities developing. And we could learn just why Rey seemed so skilled in Episode 7 when Episode 8 is released. She may just learn the Force differently, but won't probably be as powerful as Luke.
See, I believe someone attuned to the Force like Rey, but not quite as powerful as figures like Luke or Darth Vader, can learn quicker and if they are emotionally stable and confident, they can draw the Force better. It is easy to see that Kylo took longer to develop in his Force abilities than Rey because he is emotionally unstable.

[Sovereign]

Well, I'm not that familiar with the SW lore so you might well be right about the qualities of the Force. However, Rey and the other protagonists were also extremely annoying as characters and even if there were a lore explanation to the Force, I'd still dislike Rey, Finn and Kylo because of their (IMO) terrible personalities. I just cannot see how the Last Jedi could change that.

[WeirdRaptor]

Well if anyone thinks Rey learned too fast and became too good, The Last Jedi hopefully will show more of her abilities developing. And we could learn just why Rey seemed so skilled in Episode 7 when Episode 8 is released. She may just learn the Force differently, but won't probably be as powerful as Luke.
See, I believe someone attuned to the Force like Rey, but not quite as powerful as figures like Luke or Darth Vader, can learn quicker and if they are emotionally stable and confident, they can draw the Force better. It is easy to see that Kylo took longer to develop in his Force abilities than Rey because he is emotionally unstable.

Luke also learned way too fast. A couple of weeks of training with Yoda and then a year of tracking Han down and suddenly he can take Vader in a fight? Not realistic, and Star Wars isn't MEANT to be grounded in realism, anyway. People need to stop expecting realism from Heroic Fantasy.

[WeirdRaptor]

Well, I'm not that familiar with the SW lore so you might well be right about the qualities of the Force. However, Rey and the other protagonists were also extremely annoying as characters and even if there were a lore explanation to the Force, I'd still dislike Rey, Finn and Kylo because of their (IMO) terrible personalities. I just cannot see how the Last Jedi could change that.

Anakin, Padme, and Jar Jar Binks had terrible personalities. I'll take Rey, Finn, and Kylo over them any day. The prequels sucked.

[F-14 Ace]

Well if anyone thinks Rey learned too fast and became too good, The Last Jedi hopefully will show more of her abilities developing. And we could learn just why Rey seemed so skilled in Episode 7 when Episode 8 is released. She may just learn the Force differently, but won't probably be as powerful as Luke.
See, I believe someone attuned to the Force like Rey, but not quite as powerful as figures like Luke or Darth Vader, can learn quicker and if they are emotionally stable and confident, they can draw the Force better. It is easy to see that Kylo took longer to develop in his Force abilities than Rey because he is emotionally unstable.

Luke also learned way too fast. A couple of weeks of training with Yoda and then a year of tracking Han down and suddenly he can take Vader in a fight? Not realistic, and Star Wars isn't MEANT to be grounded in realism, anyway. People need to stop expecting realism from Heroic Fantasy.

"But but but...  Ray managed to outrun 2 TIE fighters in a spaceship she had never flown before!"

Yeah?  And?  Luke, a farm boy, blew up the Death Star despite having never flown a real spaceship before (the T-16 he mentioned was just a glorified airplane) and Anakin, a slave who's only experience piloting a vehicle consisted of pod racing, flew into a space battle and blew up the enemy command ship.  People who whine about the lack of realism in fantasy annoy me for the same reason as people who whine about realism in video games.  IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE REALISTIC.

[WeirdRaptor]

"But but but...  Ray managed to outrun 2 TIE fighters in a spaceship she had never flown before!"

Yeah?  And?  Luke, a farm boy, blew up the Death Star despite having never flown a real spaceship before (the T-16 he mentioned was just a glorified airplane) and Anakin, a slave who's only experience piloting a vehicle consisted of pod racing, flew into a space battle and blew up the enemy command ship.  People who whine about the lack of realism in fantasy annoy me for the same reason as people who whine about realism in video games.  IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE REALISTIC.

THANK YOU! Gah, getting someone on the internet to admit it has been liking pulling tonsils from a live victim who hasn't been numbed or restrained in any way! So I very much appreciate your reply, F-14.

[F-14 Ace]

For people complaining about how Ray beat Kylo Ren too easily, I want to point a few things out.  It's worth noting that Ray is experienced at melee combat as shown earlier in the film and has the fast reflexes that come with being force sensitive.  Finn, a guy who is more experienced with blasters and has no force powers (that we know of) got trounced by Kylo Ren with little effort.  Ray was a far better match for him.  Also, Kylo Ren had just been gut-shot with a wookie bowcaster, a weapon shown to send stormtroopers flying 20 feet through the air.  And he was wounded while fighting Finn.  He was shown to toy with his opponents and was overconfident.  He clearly wasn't at the top of his game.  Also, if you watch the scene, Ray is visibly pissed off while fighting Kylo and is quite aggressive in her attacks.  It's entirely possible that Ray was tapping into the Dark Side, having never been properly disciplined and not knowing any better.  This is something that Kylo Ren probably wouldn't have anticipated.    

As for Ray's technical knowhow and piloting abilities, she's a scavenger.  She tinkers with machinery for a living.  Also, a comic showed her fixing up a spaceship and using it for a bit before giving it to a friend so they could leave the planet.  As for how her flying skills are so good, she's Force-sensitive.  If that was a good enough excuse for the other movies then it's acceptable here too.  We don't need any more double standards.

Being competent doesn't make someone a Mary Sue, and there's nothing wrong with having competent heroes.

[Sovereign]

To be honest, trying to explain some fight in a film shouldn't be that difficult. Either she was too powerful or the film failed tremendously in explaining the situation. You're right F-14, fantasy doesn't have to be realistic but it should be logical and consistent with itself. Also, the escape scene wasn't the problem. Rey also acts like a Mary Sue, ever-confident, ever-funny, ever-likable and just wins everyone whoever they are. Luke's character was just completely neutral while Anakin had comedic value. I don't think I hold sexist double standards considering that I was completely fine with Jyn. She acted most of the times realistically and she couldn't do everything right away.

As for the prequels, I'll never say they are good. And yes, they suck. However, I'll just say it: I hated Force Awakens. As for the characters, Jar Jar was a bad joke, Padme was just a dead character and Anakin...   Still, Obi-wan is a far better character than anyone in FA and Palpatine was a bit more interesting than Snoke. Also, Anakin's Betrayal and Duel of the Fates alone decide this issue for me. Music is one of the things I value most in a film.

[WeirdRaptor]

To be honest, trying to explain some fight in a film shouldn't be that difficult. Either she was too powerful or the film failed tremendously in explaining the situation. You're right F-14, fantasy doesn't have to be realistic but it should be logical and consistent with itself. Also, the escape scene wasn't the problem. Rey also acts like a Mary Sue, ever-confident, ever-funny, ever-likable and just wins everyone whoever they are. Luke's character was just completely neutral while Anakin had comedic value. I don't think I hold sexist double standards considering that I was completely fine with Jyn. She acted most of the times realistically and she couldn't do everything right away.

As for the prequels, I'll never say they are good. And yes, they suck. However, I'll just say it: I hated Force Awakens. As for the characters, Jar Jar was a bad joke, Padme was just a dead character and Anakin...   Still, Obi-wan is a far better character than anyone in FA and Palpatine was a bit more interesting than Snoke. Also, Anakin's Betrayal and Duel of the Fates alone decide this issue for me. Music is one of the things I value most in a film.

Actually, it's not difficult to explain how Rey won at all. Chewie shot Kylo with his bowcaster, wounding him greatly, and if you'll recall, that's the same gun that had been sending every Stormtrooper it hit flying throughout the whole movie. So its frankly a miracle Kylo was even still alive afterwards. Plus, he wasn't in his right state of mind right after killing Han, plus Finn wore him down a little bit, plus Rey just gave herself to the Force and let instinct take over.
Rey is only a Mary Sue if Luke is, too. Again, this is Heroic Fantasy. Get a clue.

No one cares if you hated The Force Awakens. It made two billion world wide, and so will its sequel. You are an ant shouting into a void.