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T-rex vs. Spinosaurus dispute

Chomper98

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One of the most annoying, if not outright outrageous, is the ongoing dispute between T-rex and Spinosaurus fans over what would win in a fight, generated by Jurassic Park III. I respect people's opinions and all, but personally, I can't stand to hear someone say 'Spino would whip T-rex, or T-rex would be torn apart by Spino'. It just is annoying, and whille I like both dinosaurs, I know for a fact T-rex would win. If there is anything in this world I know almost everything currently known to science, its dinosaurs, I can identify any dinosaur, from the tinyest Compsognathus, to the enourmous Brachiosaurus. Back on topic, the way a T-rex would win is this,

Jaw strength, T-rex has the most powerful jaw of any land animal ever known, and can easily break the neck of any dinosaur, Spinosaurus would get its neck or head crushed by the T-rex's powerful jaws.

Skull design, designed to take huge amounts of pressure, blunt, stocky, and strong, perfect to absorb the shock of a massive bite.

Tooth design, designedy for smashing and crushing, to crush anything caught in the mouth, while Spino's teeth are designed for gripping, and are very weak.

Intelligence, one of the most important factors, Tyrannosaurus Rex had, by dinosaur standards, a very powerful brain, it could outsmart the Spino.

Senses, it had extremely good sight, smell, and hearing, could use these to sense Spino from a distance, and ambush it.

I have nothing against those who like the Spino the best, but for them to say T-rex would get murdered by the Spino, that is pure wrong, no scientific facts there, plus the arms of the Spino are again designed for gripping, and they would have to get in very close to deal any damage, and if they did they would get destroyed by the strength of the T-rex's jaws.

These are scientific fact, and I have been studying dinosaurs since I was a kid, and know what I'm talking about. Again, I don't have anything against Spino fans, just wish they'd accept fact over fiction. What do you thin?


Fyn16

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I agree one hundred percent. In fact, my best friend swears this could happen.

Really?

Okay, first off, Spino is already at a massive weight disadvantage. It may be slightly bigger, but it's also lighter. I found the scene where it snaps the T-Rex's neck to be completely ridiculous, and it pretty much blew the whole movie for me. T-Rex would have won hands down.


Chomper98

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Quote from: Fyn16,Aug 22 2012 on  09:50 PM
I agree one hundred percent. In fact, my best friend swears this could happen.

Really?

Okay, first off, Spino is already at a massive weight disadvantage. It may be slightly bigger, but it's also lighter. I found the scene where it snaps the T-Rex's neck to be completely ridiculous, and it pretty much blew the whole movie for me. T-Rex would have won hands down.
You don't know how long I tried to get someone to see facts, even though I made my OC a near-invincible Spinosaurus, that was just creative license.


DarkHououmon

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Here's a stamp I made a while back.

http://bluedramon.deviantart.com/art/No-mo...ights-303822628

A couple things to add before I forget:

1. From what I heard, the spinosaurus had a much slender, less muscular neck compared to tyrannosaurus. If it were to try to break the tyrannosaurus's neck the way it had in the movie, well, it would be breaking its own neck well before that. Its jaws were also more slender, and I think more "empty" compared to tyrannosaurus. Tyrannosaurus had a bite force close to 3 times that of an alligator. I don't think spinosaurus's bite was measured, but considering the smaller room for muscle, it might not even be half the strength. Tyrannosaurus's jaws were so strong that an adolescent tyrannosaurus could outbite a fully grown giganotosaurus, from what I heard.

2. And it would break its own arms even before that. A theropod's palms always face each other unless spread straight outward because their ulnus and radius are fused together, preventing rotation. The spinosaurus would need to break its arms in order to get them in the position they are in JP3. On top of that, its arms could not reach out that far. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the JP3 spinosaurus had its arms stretched unrealistically too far. When you look at the skeleton, it should not be able to do this.

So basically this means that if a real spinosaurus were to try to do what the JP3 spinosaurus did to a fully grown tyrannosaurus, it would be laying on the ground with a broken neck, broken arms, possibly a broken jaw, while the tyrannosaurus just shrugs it off like nothing happened. At worst it might have some puncture wounds in the neck, but nothing too serious.


Blais_13

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Yeah,that's true,spino was designed to kill smaller animals anf fish,while T-rex is after the big prey,so face to face a T-rex had much bigger chances to win than the spino.

However the reason they made the spino win is that they tought people was bored of watching always the T-rex as the biggest largest killing machine.They wanted something new.It's unrealistic,but I think we all agree that the spino sail in the water scene was much cooler than another T-rex chasing after the humans scene.


Chomper98

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Quote from: Blais_13,Aug 23 2012 on  04:17 AM
Yeah,that's true,spino was designed to kill smaller animals anf fish,while T-rex is after the big prey,so face to face a T-rex had much bigger chances to win than the spino.

However the reason they made the spino win is that they tought people was bored of watching always the T-rex as the biggest largest killing machine.They wanted something new.It's unrealistic,but I think we all agree that the spino sail in the water scene was much cooler than another T-rex chasing after the humans scene.
Yeah, even though I like the Spino, I still wish they'd kept the T-rex alive, and for them to kill t-rex was a pretty bad move on their part. Their director should have thought first.


Pangaea

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Personally, I am sick to death of the issues people have with the "Spinosaurus beats T. rex" scene in Jurassic Park III. :bang It's a movie, with fictionalized portrayals of both species, hardly meant to be realistic. (Though JPIII was one of the first movies to correctly depict Spinosaurus with an elongated crocodilian snout, anatomically their model doesn't have much in common with many scientific reconstructions of the species.) And it's worth noting that that Spinosaurus had had a small airplane collide with it just minutes before, and had little or no discernible injury to its sail (the area where it as hit) the next time it was seen. I think it's safe to say that Jurassic Park's version of Spinosaurus is considerably more durable than the real thing.

I for one found it refreshing to see Tyrannosaurus upstaged by another theropod for once. Don't get me wrong, I love T. rex, but with a history of almost a century of media appearances and glorification as the "king of the theropods", it's nice to see another dinosaur steal the show for once. On a similar note, I saw a piece of artwork online recently (which I sadly can't find now) that really struck a chord with me regarding my feelings about the criticism of that JPIII scene. It shows a Spinosaurus (which might have depicted ordering a drink at a bar, if my memory is not mixing with my imagination) saying something along the lines of: "I don't get it; when a giant ape (King Kong) beats T. rex in a fight, everybody cheers. When I beat T. rex in a fight, everybody boos." :rolleyes

My tirade so far may be a little off-tangent from the subject of this thread; my point is that most of the complaints surrounding the JPIII fight scene are just stupid (no offense to anyone here who might have shared those complaints), because the combatants had virtually nothing in common with their real-life counterparts and were operating under Hollywood physics. A hypothetical confrontation between a real Tyrannosaurus and a real Spinosaurus is a whole other kettle of fish (stop drooling, Spino, it’s just an expression :p). It's true; in real life, a Tyrannosaurus would have had some significant advantages over Spinosaurus in a fight, most namely its jaw strength. And real-life Spinosaurus was more lightly built than T. rex, despite having a greater overall length. So realistically speaking, if the real-life dinosaurs were to fight to the death, the T. rex would probably come out on top. But I can’t help but address what I feel to be one of the most ridiculous things about these “who would win if _____ challenged _____” arguments, and that’s that they seem to assume that one side will always win, and that the outcome will always be the same. Honestly, anyone who knows a thing or two about competitive sports or anything involving a clash between two sides (whether sports, fistfights, or animal predators and prey) should know that this is bunk. The way I see it, the Spinosaurus vs. T. rex scenario is like bringing a knife to a gunfight (if anyone has seen the MythBusters episode where the hosts test the validity of this phrase, you’ll know where I’m going with this): the T. rex has the gun and a better chance of winning the fight, while the Spinosaurus has the knife and is at a disadvantage, but is still armed and not without a chance of winning the fight. Sure, I think that in a realistic version of the JPIII battle scenario, the T. rex would win most of the time. But I also think it’s possible that the Spinosaurus could rip the T. rex’s throat out with its claws before the latter managed to land a fatal bite, or that the T. rex  could beat the Spinosaurus, but suffer some wounds in the process that would ultimately prove fatal. This sort of thing happens plenty of times in nature between living animals: polar bears hunt walruses, but sometimes the walrus kills the polar bear; aggressive elephants sometimes kill rhinos, but occasionally the rhino is the one who impales the elephant; lions and hyenas regularly kill each other. Even if one animal in a fight has an advantage, that doesn’t mean that that animal is guaranteed to win every time.

There’s one more twist in this hypothetical conflict that I want to bring up. I’m sure that most of us here are already aware that real-life Spinosaurus was separated by tens of millions of years and thousands of miles from Tyrannosaurus, but it did live alongside another predator as largeóor even slightly larger thanóT. rex (though not as formidably armed): Carcharodontosaurus. One theory regarding Spinosaurus's sail is that, like the raised hackles of a cat, the puffed-up feathers of an owl, or the spread frill of a frilled lizard, the appendage made Spinosaurus look bigger and more intimidating, which would deter other large predators like Carcharodontosaurus from getting into a fight with it, or even allowing it to scare other large predators away from a carcass. (Though Spinosaurus is widely hypothesized to have primarily eaten fish, the presence of Iguanodon bones in the stomach of its close relative Baryonyx suggests that dinosaur meat might not have been exempt from its menu.)

In my opinion, the most realistic portrayal of an encounter between T. rex would proceed as follows: Rex and Spino meet from opposite sides of a clearing, just like in JPIII; Spino roars (or hisses, or bellows, etc.), gapes jaws and raises forearms to bare teeth and colossal meat-hook thumb claws, and turns sideways, showing off sail; T. rex decides that Spino is way too big and scary to risk a fight with, and backs off; both dinosaurs go about their business, Spino returning to the river to catch some fish, Rex going off in search of wayward human tourists or motley band of baby herbivores or what have you. End of story. -_-



Pronounced "pan-JEE-uh". Spelled with three A's. Represented by a Lystrosaurus.


Malte279

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Not only because of the time these two species lived in is the entrie debate an entirely hypothetical matter, but also because of the sheer unlikelihood of two large and dangerous carnivores attacking each other just for the heck of it :rolleyes
It is an invention for the screen because we, the audience, like big gladiator style fights between two fierce well armed beasts more than the "go for the easy and nutritious prey that doesn't pose much of a threat" kind of attitute that is predominant in nature.
It is a very hypothetical debate based on entertainment cinema more than anything else and I reckon people should not get worked up about it too much. I know too little (and admittedly don't care enough) to make a good estimation about which dinosaur would win in so highly hypothetical a scenario. But because of the hypothetical nature of the entire scenario I must ask, which are the "scientific facts" and "scientific reconstructions" which are refered to but which remain unnamed? Any titles and authors of scientific books, articles or essays anyone?


Ghostfishe

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The question isn't how plausible it is for them to attack each other, or whether it could have happened in real life. One could argue the same about superheroes duking it out. I'm freely disregarding the specifics of what happened in JPIII, just because it's obvious the specific way it happened in the movie is unrealistic. (And not the only inconsistency--the raptors' legs dislocated when they walked, the Pteranodons had teeth...)

I find it annoying just because it seems like most people who prefer Spinosaurus, do so because Jack Horner says it would happen that way. I mean c'mon... really? But the number of other paleontologists who disagree with him apparently means nothing. I've yet to see him address many of the points brought up in Tyrannosaurus's favor, which frankly smacks of personal bias.

* One of Horner's favorite arguments seems to be that T. rex was just a wimpy scavenger, and so couldn't possibly win. Hunting behavior does not matter in this kind of scenario to begin with, but for the sake of the argument let's think about this for a moment. It almost seems like Horner has made the mistake of assuming that an inclination to scavenge == devoted scavenging behavior == weakness. Even animals that are normally considered scavengers tend to be opportunists... even turkey vultures will snatch squirrels out of trees. The really ironic part is that Spinosaurus is probably *more* suited to scavenging than T. rex. That long, low snout with the nostrils set back on the face would be excellent for digging around in dead dinos' guts, as some paleontologists (eg. Darren Naish) have suggested in the past.

* Ecology and basic logistics support this. T. rex was the only really big carnivore in its environment, so for all intents and purposes it should be the apex predator. The German Shepherd-sized raptors that lived alongside it certainly weren't taking on elephant-sized hadrosaurs and ceratopsians on a regular basis, but something had to be keeping their numbers in check. T. rex was the only animal that really fit the bill.

* In contrast, Spinosaurus lived alongside other large predators, eg. Carcharodontosaurus and various abelisaurs. How do you fit multiple very large predators in the same environment? You stick them in different niches so they won't compete for the same resources. So which seems like the more likely all-around apex predator out of this bunch? It must be either Carcharodontosaurus, which is a dead ringer for South America's own apex predator Giganotosaurus, and uses the same body plan as the stegosaur-slaying Allosaurus. Or it would be Spinosaurus, with the crazy long snout and other peculiarly specific adaptations, whose best-known relative was found with half-digested fish scales and juvenile dino bones in its gut.

* Then there's just basic morphology. Spinosaurus's neck--if it was anything like its close relative Baryonyx--was long, slim, and not very flexible. Its jaws had inferior leverage given their length and thinness, and its jaw muscles just wouldn't have had the same amount of crushing power. T. rex's feet were about twice as big as those of same-sized Acrocanthosaurus (another relative of Carchar). It was the bulldog of theropods. Its smaller dimensions only mean that it had a lower center of gravity, which would actually have been an advantage. Its worst weakness would probably be its tiny arms. Maybe a Spinosaurus could win if it managed to pin the T. rex down. That WAS one advantage Spinosaurus had, was that it had pretty hefty forelimbs. It certainly couldn't have used them the way it did in JPIII, but it would have been able to pick itself up off the ground if it tripped, or break a fall. Tyrannosaurus, not so much. But of course, Spinosaurus would have to be able to get Tyrannosaurus on the ground in the first place.  :rolleyes:


DarkHououmon

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Probably the biggest insult I've seen regarding spinosaurus is this program:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu8Ve-3N2Ho

If you think JP3 got spinosaurus wrong, this program goes even further. The spinosaurus is portrayed as even larger, even more powerful than before. One of the breaking points for me was when spinosaurus is depicted as large enough to pick up a rugops (or something similar) with one arm. I'm not kidding.


Chomper98

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Quote from: DarkHououmon,Aug 23 2012 on  01:32 PM
Probably the biggest insult I've seen regarding spinosaurus is this program:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu8Ve-3N2Ho

If you think JP3 got spinosaurus wrong, this program goes even further. The spinosaurus is portrayed as even larger, even more powerful than before. One of the breaking points for me was when spinosaurus is depicted as large enough to pick up a rugops (or something similar) with one arm. I'm not kidding.
I saw that..."Documentary" a while ago, and I hated it. How dare they make something like that and label it as a documentary? Now Spino fan-boys use it as sources.


DarkHououmon

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I watched it when it came out, thinking it would be good. By the time it was over, I knew it got so much wrong. So much stuff regarding spinosaurus was exaggerated. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if some stuff is exaggerated to make it dramatic, but the inaccuracy I usually see is either based on old data, or it's more "minor". What this program did goes far beyond that. I have not watched any other program they did.


Ghostfishe

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"Monsters Resurrected"... that sounds familiar. That isn't the series that claimed that lambeosaurs' crests let them generate infrasound calls they used as "sonic weapons", by any chance?  <_<

Really though, it doesn't surprise me at all. "Documentaries" are getting crappier and crappier every year. We started out with Walking with Dinosaurs, which at least tried to stick to valid hypotheses but still made some stupid decisions, like making up scientific names for hypothetical plants (seriously, WTF? Anyone who understands why we use these names can tell you that's seriously screwed up.)

Now we have things like lambeosaurs with "super screams", dromaeosaurs that "communicate with hand signals", and interviews with real experts that were so quote-mined that they look like they're saying the exact opposite of what they were actually saying. There was a lot of ranting a few years ago because the "Clash of the Dinosaurs" production crew interviewed a sauropod expert on what sauropod biology was like, and then made it look like he was supporting that old notion that sauropods had an extra brain in their butt.  <_<  Which is kind of like quoting a math genius and then editing their reply so it sounds like they're saying 2 + 2 = 5.

So yeah, "documentaries" have no sense of decency anymore. It's all just hype now, and any pretense of accuracy has pretty much gone out the window. I don't even watch the Discovery Channel, History Channel etc. because between the ancient astronauts and the dinosaurs it basically gives me the dry heaves.  ;)


DarkHououmon

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My favorite dinosaur documentary that was recent (last year I think) is Dinosaur Revolution. I think it was really well done. I highly recommend it. I'm sure some things are exaggerated, but in my opinion, it's much better than anything Monsters Resurrected could come up with.

I don't know about the lambeosaurus bit. I only watched the spinosaurus episode and never watched anything else from them.


Chomper98

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Quote from: DarkHououmon,Aug 24 2012 on  11:36 AM
My favorite dinosaur documentary that was recent (last year I think) is Dinosaur Revolution. I think it was really well done. I highly recommend it. I'm sure some things are exaggerated, but in my opinion, it's much better than anything Monsters Resurrected could come up with.

I don't know about the lambeosaurus bit. I only watched the spinosaurus episode and never watched anything else from them.
I have seen it, and it was very good, my favorite scene was where this Torvosaurus stole an Allosaur's territory and tried to kill a Denirosaurus(that how you spell it)'s baby. Then the two work together to kill it, while it seems unrealistic, perhaps something like that could happen. I've seen alot of Paleo-Documentaries, the Walking With Series, When Dinosaurs roamed America, Mammals vs. Dinosaurs, Dinosaur Planet, Dinosaur Revolution, and so on and so on. Most of those are atleast acceptably realistic, others are not as good. Honestly, if they're trying to make a documentary, make it realistic!


DarkHououmon

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What I like about Dinosaur Revolution is that they give the dinosaurs personalities, but didn't make them too human. They're still animal-like, but they seem to show more personality compared to other programs of dinosaurs I see.

One dinosaur program I did not enjoy was...I forget the name but it was one talking about feathered dinosaurs. What I didn't like was how they said how "poor T-Rex" may have been feathered and birdlike, as if it was dishonorable for T-Rex to be anything but scaly and reptile-like. I was annoyed with that program.


Ghostfishe

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Artistic license aside, CG animals don't usually move or sound the way live animals are supposed to... I almost wouldn't mind seeing them anthropomorphized, a la Raptor Red, if only they moved naturally. You see a lot of dinosaurs walking around with their jaws gaping open like they got stuck that way, roaring and growling seemingly just for the heck of it... or just standing there kind of staring off into space like they're daydreaming.

I'll admit that I'm definitely not the best animator, but I do know that animals tend to keep an eye on their environment, and don't just stand stationary for long periods of time unless they're dozing. Predators don't typically "babble" to themselves, because prey IRL won't stand there staring off into space if it realizes there's danger around. But then you see a big predator in a CG documentary bearing down on some small prey animal, jaws agape and roaring its head off. It breaks suspension of disbelief for me because all I see is an attempt at being theatrical. :p