The Gang of Five

The Land Before Time => LBT Projects => Topic started by: Ducky123 on November 13, 2015, 05:43:54 PM

Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on November 13, 2015, 05:43:54 PM
Hey guys, I've had this idea in my mind for an eternity but never actually suggested this so here we go.

I have listened to the songs that some GoF members recorded way back in 2006-2007 (I think) and I would absolutely love to do this myself. I know we have quite a few passionate singers among our community and certainly more members than back in 2006-2007 (although the general activity may be somewhat lower :p) so goes my question: Who would participate in a new attempt on the GoF Singing Project?

also... 5000th post  :wow
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Malte279 on November 13, 2015, 05:46:27 PM
I would be in :yes
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: somerandomfangirl on November 13, 2015, 05:49:19 PM
Honestly, I have no idea if I can. I'd like to, but the last time I tried to sing my voice really messed up on me and wouldn't stop cracking. :oops However, I will give it a shot!
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: bestariana1girl on November 13, 2015, 06:10:24 PM
What would we do?
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on November 13, 2015, 07:45:55 PM
Quote
I would be in in-yes.gif
I expected no less ;)

Quote
Honestly, I have no idea if I can. I'd like to, but the last time I tried to sing my voice really messed up on me and wouldn't stop cracking. dino_oops.gif However, I will give it a shot!
Hey, have you ever listened to some of the songs they made back then? Most participants didn't sing all too great  :lol But it's not about creating a masterpiece but about having fun and doing things together here :yes

Quote
What would we do?
Basically, record ourselves singing LBT songs and then somebody puts our entries together, adds background music and ready is our song. Well, of course it's not that easy but that's what we'll do.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: vonboy on November 13, 2015, 08:18:42 PM
My voice would be pretty deep, if that's something that you could get to work in a song.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Nimrod on November 13, 2015, 08:54:42 PM
I would love to :)
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: DarkWolf91 on November 14, 2015, 12:37:02 AM
I would love to! The one that I participated in was never finished :cry
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: bestariana1girl on November 14, 2015, 05:20:23 PM
Would we all be singing the same song but different parts? Or different songs?
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: LBTDiclonius on November 14, 2015, 06:02:38 PM
I'd be down! If I can get something good, anyway.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: The Anonymous Person on November 14, 2015, 06:15:48 PM
I'd love to partake in this project, depending on my time as well as what songs we'll actually be singing.  :yes
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on November 14, 2015, 06:36:20 PM
Well, that's certainly enough people already to make this happen  :exactly

Quote
Would we all be singing the same song but different parts? Or different songs?
If we're going to stick to the way it was done in the first singing project, then we'd split up our singing into different parts. Like... one or two sing a verse, then all sing the refrain, and then somebody else sings the second verse. Or something like that :p Sometimes it could also work to sing only one phrase but... we'll think about that once we know what song to sing and who's going to sing it and who's not.
We'll vote on what songs to sing I suppose. Not everybody has to participate in singing all songs of course ;)

Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: action9000 on November 14, 2015, 11:18:31 PM
Quote from: DarkWolf91,Nov 13 2015 on  10:37 PM
I would love to! The one that I participated in was never finished :cry
Hey Darkwolf.

You're absolutely right and I sincerely apologize for that being the case.

After reading your message, I dug through some of my old backups just now and guess what - Sure enough, I still had a few vocal recordings (read: ALL of them because I'm a packrat like that :lol)  laying around.

I put this version of Beyond the Mysterious Beyond together this evening, featuring vocals from Darkwolf91 and Adam (Petrie).

All vocals were recorded back in 2009. I wrote the background music in 2009 as well. The mixing and mastering of this final release of the song was done....today.  :p

I posted it up on my Google Drive here:
The Gang of Five - Beyond the Mysterious Beyond (2009-2015) (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B96eLzW5--vYdXpJUGdocGdiUzA)

(if anyone's nerdy enough to want the uncompressed .wav master, let me know).

It's the least I could do and I'm curious to see what you guys are going to come up with for your next singing project! :D

I won't be doing any more personally but I will wish you the best of luck. If anyone has any technical questions about producing these songs, feel free to ask away!
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on November 15, 2015, 09:56:11 AM
Hey Tim,

since you've been the one doing all the technical work back then, it would be cool if you told me what has to be done in order to put a song together and, if necessary, what programs are needed to do that. I suppose, since I'm the one iniciating this whole project again, I'll also be the one who has to do all of this stuff - or at least most of it. I'm not too familiar with doing such things however so your advice would be really appreciated here (or your help if you can spare some freetime :))
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Nimrod on November 15, 2015, 01:09:29 PM
A good Program I like to use is audacity. Its free and pretty simple. Dont know if theres something new out there that is better yet
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: action9000 on November 15, 2015, 04:38:55 PM
Quote from: Ducky123,Nov 15 2015 on  07:56 AM
Hey Tim,

since you've been the one doing all the technical work back then, it would be cool if you told me what has to be done in order to put a song together and, if necessary, what programs are needed to do that. I suppose, since I'm the one iniciating this whole project again, I'll also be the one who has to do all of this stuff - or at least most of it. I'm not too familiar with doing such things however so your advice would be really appreciated here (or your help if you can spare some freetime :))
Hey Ducky123,

I'd personally recommend doing the project in this order:

1) Create or determine the background music track
You basically have two choices here and it all comes down to what you want out of the song:

- Simply use the song from the movie. If you do this, remember that you won't be able to completely remove the original vocals so we'll basically end up singing on top of them.

- Write your own background music track from scratch. I often took this approach but it is significantly more time-consuming. This approach can involve either reproducing the original music by ear as accurately as possible or by writing a custom arrangement of the song. This can be done using completely free software (MuseScore is a free, modern MIDI sequencer with a sheet music view) if you're willing to write a MIDI file and export it to mp3, or you can get as professional as you want and produce something that sounds like a complete piece.

If you want more information on this approach, let me know, otherwise I'll shut up. :p

2) Send the background music track to all of your singers.
It's vital that everyone sings along to the same background music track for two reasons:

- Tuning. Some versions of some songs, even from official sources, may be in a different key (the Songs from the LBT CD and the songs on the DVD from LBT 2-4 are notorious for this problem).

- Synchronization. You're going to want to make sure that everyone is singing a song that's the same tempo (speed) as the one you'll be using to put them all together. If they're not exactly the same tempo, you'll have a very bad time.  :lol

3) When you get the singers to record, make sure they ONLY record the vocals! You don't want any background music in the vocal recordings
This one is straightforward but following it gives you much better results in the end. Otherwise you'll end up with the final song sounding like a mushy mess and you'll have no way to remove the additional instances of the background music. Get your singers to wear headphones while recording. They simply press PLAY on the background music, hit RECORD on their mic, sing along with the music and BAM! You have a recording that's in sync and on-key without any background music. :)

Make sure that everyone sends you good-quality audio of their recordings. 96 kbps MP3 won't cut it. Get AT LEAST 192 kbps MP3. 320 kbps, or better, uncompressed .wav, is ideally what you want. Mono is fine since I doubt most people have a stereo mic setup. ;)

4) Mixing the vocals together is more of an art than a science
Supposedly Audacity is multi-track mixing software as well as recording software. I'd suggest looking into it. If you don't already have a favorite music production program, start there and Google around for "free audio mixing software" or something along those lines. There has to be something out there. :) I personally used FL Studio (for most songs) and Sonar (for Things Change). Beyond the Mysterious Beyond, that I posted up a few posts, was written and mixed in FL Studio. FL Studio has come a LONG way and is a very good tool for everything related to this project as a whole, including writing the background music...but it's also $200 so it may not be an option. There is a free version but you can't load save files in the free version.

I don't really know what's out there for free multi-track mixing software. You'll have to browse around. If you want to get all pro and fancy, I'd recommend FL Studio, Sonar, Pro Tools or Cubase.

As for the mixing itself, subtle use of effects can vastly improve the results. Your best friends will be:

Reverb - An effect that places the source audio into a virtual space so it doesn't just sound like a recording of someone on a webcam mic.

Compression - An effect that controls the dynamics (volumes) of the track over time and lets you control pops and quiet parts, while helping you emphasize accents and attacks. Basically it makes loud parts quieter and quiet parts louder. This is fantastic when not dealing with professional singers because things like distance from the mic and voice control just aren't consistent.

Stereo Separation - An effect, when applied after the source vocal and a reverb effect, really livens up a sound and kills the "mono" sound that comes from just using a mono recording on its own.

Typically you'd probably want to chain the effects in this order:

Source vocal audio -> Compression -> Reverb -> Stereo Separation -> Equalizer if you want to use it.

Go ahead and play around though! My notes on effects are simply rough guidelines, not rules. :)
It's important to note that these (and other) effects aren't simply "plug and play"; they have a large number of properties and settings that can be changed in order to get exactly the result you want. Reverb and stereo separation are fairly intuitive on their own, whereas compression really has a bit of a learning curve.

Oh, a tip? Don't go toooo crazy with the reverb. I know it's tempting because at first more will sound "better". Listen to that little voice in your head that's telling you "hmm, this might be too much..." because it probably is. ;)


Outside of effects, remember to use volume envelopes (changing volumes-per-recording over time). This will let you fade tracks in and out, as well as control the relative levels of each singer at any given time. If your mixing software doesn't have this, try to find one that does. Without this feature, you'll have an extremely hard time.
Basically, you need some way to change the volume of a vocalist throughout the song, to help you keep everything nice and balanced, as well as give you a way to fade singers in and out, allowing solos, specific combinations of singers, etc.



The biggest challenge I always had when doing these, and part of why I stopped doing them honestly, was because of the massive discrepancy between the sound of each vocalist. I don't mean the voices themselves but the recording styles:

Some singers had the mics close to their mouths; some had them further away. Many of them had some level of background noise that needed to be filtered out using noise reduction effects. Everyone has a different kind of microphone. Some mics, like headset mics, pick up a voice very closely and intimately. Others, like webcam mics, pick up the space that the voice is in and add distance to the vocalist's voice. Trying to mix the two is basically impossible. You just have to do what you can.
Stuff like that REALLY starts to become noticeable when you're doing the mixing.

My recommendation? If you can, try to get everyone to use their headset mics if they have them. They tend to work MUCH better than webcam mics or mics that pick up an entire space, rather than JUST a person's voice. If someone has an actual vocal mic, even better.

Understand that, because nobody is really using professional-quality equipment in a proper recording environment, you will be limited on how good your mixing can be. Just do your best. :)
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: bestariana1girl on November 15, 2015, 08:39:32 PM
I would love to participate!
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Nimrod on November 16, 2015, 01:39:27 AM
Just bought myself an external soundcard with several inputs for mics and other instruments. It was the first time i could really use audio monitoring and it really helps.

Cant wait to use it for the project here :D
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: The Anonymous Person on November 16, 2015, 01:32:58 PM
If I get involved in this project, I actually wouldn't mind doing some mixing. I've done several multi-tracks by myself already, so I don't think this would be too much of a problem.  :yes
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on November 16, 2015, 04:11:37 PM
Quote
Hey Ducky123,

I'd personally recommend doing the project in this order:

1) Create or determine the background music track
You basically have two choices here and it all comes down to what you want out of the song:

- Simply use the song from the movie. If you do this, remember that you won't be able to completely remove the original vocals so we'll basically end up singing on top of them.

- Write your own background music track from scratch. I often took this approach but it is significantly more time-consuming. This approach can involve either reproducing the original music by ear as accurately as possible or by writing a custom arrangement of the song. This can be done using completely free software (MuseScore is a free, modern MIDI sequencer with a sheet music view) if you're willing to write a MIDI file and export it to mp3, or you can get as professional as you want and produce something that sounds like a complete piece.

If you want more information on this approach, let me know, otherwise I'll shut up. dino_tongue.gif

2) Send the background music track to all of your singers.
It's vital that everyone sings along to the same background music track for two reasons:

- Tuning. Some versions of some songs, even from official sources, may be in a different key (the Songs from the LBT CD and the songs on the DVD from LBT 2-4 are notorious for this problem).

- Synchronization. You're going to want to make sure that everyone is singing a song that's the same tempo (speed) as the one you'll be using to put them all together. If they're not exactly the same tempo, you'll have a very bad time. dino_laugh.gif

3) When you get the singers to record, make sure they ONLY record the vocals! You don't want any background music in the vocal recordings
This one is straightforward but following it gives you much better results in the end. Otherwise you'll end up with the final song sounding like a mushy mess and you'll have no way to remove the additional instances of the background music. Get your singers to wear headphones while recording. They simply press PLAY on the background music, hit RECORD on their mic, sing along with the music and BAM! You have a recording that's in sync and on-key without any background music. smile.gif

Make sure that everyone sends you good-quality audio of their recordings. 96 kbps MP3 won't cut it. Get AT LEAST 192 kbps MP3. 320 kbps, or better, uncompressed .wav, is ideally what you want. Mono is fine since I doubt most people have a stereo mic setup. wink.gif

4) Mixing the vocals together is more of an art than a science
Supposedly Audacity is multi-track mixing software as well as recording software. I'd suggest looking into it. If you don't already have a favorite music production program, start there and Google around for "free audio mixing software" or something along those lines. There has to be something out there. smile.gif I personally used FL Studio (for most songs) and Sonar (for Things Change). Beyond the Mysterious Beyond, that I posted up a few posts, was written and mixed in FL Studio. FL Studio has come a LONG way and is a very good tool for everything related to this project as a whole, including writing the background music...but it's also $200 so it may not be an option. There is a free version but you can't load save files in the free version.

I don't really know what's out there for free multi-track mixing software. You'll have to browse around. If you want to get all pro and fancy, I'd recommend FL Studio, Sonar, Pro Tools or Cubase.

As for the mixing itself, subtle use of effects can vastly improve the results. Your best friends will be:

Reverb - An effect that places the source audio into a virtual space so it doesn't just sound like a recording of someone on a webcam mic.

Compression - An effect that controls the dynamics (volumes) of the track over time and lets you control pops and quiet parts, while helping you emphasize accents and attacks. Basically it makes loud parts quieter and quiet parts louder. This is fantastic when not dealing with professional singers because things like distance from the mic and voice control just aren't consistent.

Stereo Separation - An effect, when applied after the source vocal and a reverb effect, really livens up a sound and kills the "mono" sound that comes from just using a mono recording on its own.

Typically you'd probably want to chain the effects in this order:

Source vocal audio -> Compression -> Reverb -> Stereo Separation -> Equalizer if you want to use it.

Go ahead and play around though! My notes on effects are simply rough guidelines, not rules. smile.gif
It's important to note that these (and other) effects aren't simply "plug and play"; they have a large number of properties and settings that can be changed in order to get exactly the result you want. Reverb and stereo separation are fairly intuitive on their own, whereas compression really has a bit of a learning curve.

Oh, a tip? Don't go toooo crazy with the reverb. I know it's tempting because at first more will sound "better". Listen to that little voice in your head that's telling you "hmm, this might be too much..." because it probably is. wink.gif


Outside of effects, remember to use volume envelopes (changing volumes-per-recording over time). This will let you fade tracks in and out, as well as control the relative levels of each singer at any given time. If your mixing software doesn't have this, try to find one that does. Without this feature, you'll have an extremely hard time.
Basically, you need some way to change the volume of a vocalist throughout the song, to help you keep everything nice and balanced, as well as give you a way to fade singers in and out, allowing solos, specific combinations of singers, etc.



The biggest challenge I always had when doing these, and part of why I stopped doing them honestly, was because of the massive discrepancy between the sound of each vocalist. I don't mean the voices themselves but the recording styles:

Some singers had the mics close to their mouths; some had them further away. Many of them had some level of background noise that needed to be filtered out using noise reduction effects. Everyone has a different kind of microphone. Some mics, like headset mics, pick up a voice very closely and intimately. Others, like webcam mics, pick up the space that the voice is in and add distance to the vocalist's voice. Trying to mix the two is basically impossible. You just have to do what you can.
Stuff like that REALLY starts to become noticeable when you're doing the mixing.

My recommendation? If you can, try to get everyone to use their headset mics if they have them. They tend to work MUCH better than webcam mics or mics that pick up an entire space, rather than JUST a person's voice. If someone has an actual vocal mic, even better.

Understand that, because nobody is really using professional-quality equipment in a proper recording environment, you will be limited on how good your mixing can be. Just do your best. smile.gif

First of all, thanks for the detailed advice! I'm not sure if I can do this but I will try. Problem is I have absolutely no experience with such programs so it would probably take me a long while just to get used to working with them let alone figure out how to use them properly :lol
One thing I CAN do is writing MIDIs. I'd need a few tips and tricks here and there but I could do that I think. All the technical work with all our recordings will be tricky. I've read the thread of the very first project just previously and it was confusing at times :p

Quote
If I get involved in this project, I actually wouldn't mind doing some mixing. I've done several multi-tracks by myself already, so I don't think this would be too much of a problem. in-yes.gif
If you could do the mixing and stuff like that, that'd be awesome! If you know how to do this, it'll save me the time trying to learn how to do it and fail at it  :lol I only hope you have enough time to do this as (judging by what I've read about the first project) it does take quite some time... then again, I'd take care of the background music so not all work would be loaded on one person :p

Here's a first list of all GoF members who wanted to participate (more than I expected tbh :D):

-Malte279
-somerandomfangirl
-vonboy
-Nimrod
-DarkWolf91
-LBTDiclonius
-The Anonymous Person
-bestariana1girl
-Dosu2Dinner (he told me on Skype that he's interested in it)
-me

That's 10 people! Wow!  :blink:

I'll probably give people a few more days if they want to join (of course everyone can join at any point of the project or leave but obviously I can't add people to a song if it's close to being finished ;)) When I have some more time at the weekend, I'll see to it that we start picking a song and I'll try out some programs  :exactly

PS: I'll probably shoot a message at you again when I've downloaded a few programs and decided to go for one, Tim. I'm definitely gonna try writing the background music, using the song as a reference and trying to write it as accurate to the original as I can. So... basically what you did years ago :)
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: action9000 on November 16, 2015, 04:24:09 PM
Quote
That's 10 people! Wow! blink.gif
Hahaha! Have fun mixing 10 voices. ;)
I noticed back in the day, the number of singers gradually went up as we went on. Therefore I had a chance to "practice" with fewer singers until Bestest Friends came along with its 10 or so singers. I actually found 10 to be pretty tricky, again partly because of the variety of different microphones/usages of them. Blending it nicely was all-but-impossible so I just kind of went with it as best I could.  :lol

Quote
First of all, thanks for the detailed advice! I'm not sure if I can do this but I will try. Problem is I have absolutely no experience with such programs so it would probably take me a long while just to get used to working with them let alone figure out how to use them properly dino_laugh.gif
One thing I CAN do is writing MIDIs. I'd need a few tips and tricks here and there but I could do that I think. All the technical work with all our recordings will be tricky. I've read the thread of the very first project just previously and it was confusing at times dino_tongue.gif
Is there's anything I can clarify, feel free to let me know. I know it was a LOT to take in. We can dig more in to what some of that means when it's more applicable if you'd like. Have you ever used MIDI technology before?

Quote
PS: I'll probably shoot a message at you again when I've downloaded a few programs and decided to go for one, Tim. I'm definitely gonna try writing the background music, using the song as a reference and trying to write it as accurate to the original as I can. So... basically what you did years ago smile.gif
Awesome, good luck!  :D Do you know what song you're doing yet?
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on November 16, 2015, 06:57:30 PM
Quote
Is there's anything I can clarify, feel free to let me know. I know it was a LOT to take in. We can dig more in to what some of that means when it's more applicable if you'd like. Have you ever used MIDI technology before?
Malte sent me Note Worthy Composer 2 like... ages ago and I've been playing around with it every now and then so I know some basics. Though I suppose there are better MIDI writing programs out there like those you mentioned. I'll try those at the weekend when I have some more time :)

Quote
Hahaha! Have fun mixing 10 voices. wink.gif
Oh yeah...  :angel

Quote
Awesome, good luck! biggrin.gif Do you know what song you're doing yet?

Not yet. I'm pretty sure I'll just have everyone suggest and vote for a song and I'll go with the majority  :exactly
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: action9000 on November 17, 2015, 12:04:49 AM
Quote
Malte sent me Note Worthy Composer 2 like... ages ago and I've been playing around with it every now and then so I know some basics. Though I suppose there are better MIDI writing programs out there like those you mentioned. I'll try those at the weekend when I have some more time smile.gif
Noteworthy Composer 2 is a great little program. : I've been using it since version 1.2 or something, back on my first computer ever.  :lol

It's not the most modern take on the sheet music MIDI editor since it's been around and updated for nearly two decades but it's one that I'm very comfortable with. It's actually aged very nicely and is probably as good as anything else out there. Feel free to stick with it as a MIDI writing tool if you want! It's a fine piece of software. :)

...That being said, there are limitations with ANY sheet music-based MIDI editor, namely when it comes to controlling MIDI events over time (CCs, such as modulation, expression, panning, etc. as well as note properties such as exact start times and velocities). They *can* do it but it's always a little clunky. Therefore there are situations where they just aren't the right tool for the job...but it goes both ways too. Many times there are situations where they ARE the best tools for the job.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: DarkWolf91 on November 17, 2015, 12:34:55 AM
Quote
I put this version of Beyond the Mysterious Beyond together this evening, featuring vocals from Darkwolf91 and Adam (Petrie).

All vocals were recorded back in 2009. I wrote the background music in 2009 as well. The mixing and mastering of this final release of the song was done....today. :p

I posted it up on my Google Drive here:
The Gang of Five - Beyond the Mysterious Beyond (2009-2015)

 :lol
Action9000, thank you for posting that! I really enjoyed hearing it. Quite a relic :smile
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: action9000 on November 17, 2015, 12:37:05 AM
Quote
Quite a relic Dino_grins.gif
Isn't it?  :p  :DD

No worries!
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: action9000 on November 17, 2015, 05:04:44 AM
Hey Ducky123 - There is one thing that I'm more than happy to do for you if you're interested:

You've played with Noteworthy Composer enough to know that the sound quality you get out of it is...less than stellar, I'm sure.  :lol:

That isn't Noteworthy's fault. Noteworthy just creates MIDI data (data that tells some OTHER device what note to play and when on which instrument with what effects and properties). The thing playing it back, unless you have a specialized setup, is the Windows General Midi synth.

The Windows GM Synth is a collection of samples - individually recorded notes of live sound. Basically, Windows has a collection of sounds on standby and MIDI Files by default talk to the GM Synth and tell it what sounds to play and when, etc.

Naturally, because it's all most people need and Microsoft doesn't want to waste a ton of hard drive space, RAM and processing power on MIDI playback, the sound is pretty horrible - good as a reference but not much else. The total data for those samples is somewhere around 4MB. You can't do much with that.  :p

Anyway, I'm getting off-track!

You may have noticed if you listened to our old singing projects that the background music sounds significantly better than that. That's because I'm using dedicated software that contains MUCH more realistic samples, covering a vast array of instruments and performance styles. This software doesn't come cheap BUT...and here's where I come in:

I'm happy to take your finished MIDI file and run it through my samplers to generate an MP3 for you if you'd like! I won't edit the MIDI any more than is necessary to get it to play nice with my software (which will mainly just involve setting velocity values, CC controllers and note timings and assigning notes to articulations in such a way that playback through my samplers sounds natural).

I've actually done a lot of software upgrades since the last singing project we've done here, which means the results will actually be significantly better than back when we did them before, due to the better technology (funny what 6 years will do). :)

Just for reference, in a very short time (so musical expression isn't quite perfect, blah blah blah blah) I threw together this recreation by ear of part of the opening to the Great Migration track from the first LBT using these samplers. That's the kind of quality we can generate from your MIDI file. :)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B96eLzW5-...ZHpGU1I3UHJ3TUk (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B96eLzW5--vYZHpGU1I3UHJ3TUk)

That's the difference between 4MB of sample data and about 1.2 TB of it. :p
Whatever instruments or performance styles your song needs, I'm 99.9% confident I have it somewhere in this collection so no matter the song we can make it work.

Let me know if that sounds interesting! When you're done with the MIDI, just pass it over to me and I'll export an MP3 for ya. :)
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on November 17, 2015, 05:47:29 PM
Quote
You've played with Noteworthy Composer enough to know that the sound quality you get out of it is...less than stellar, I'm sure. laugh.gif
Oh yeah... my first keyboard I learned playing the piano on had better sounds than that :p That one wasn't exactly too good either ^^

Quote
That isn't Noteworthy's fault. Noteworthy just creates MIDI data (data that tells some OTHER device what note to play and when on which instrument with what effects and properties). The thing playing it back, unless you have a specialized setup, is the Windows General Midi synth.

The Windows GM Synth is a collection of samples - individually recorded notes of live sound. Basically, Windows has a collection of sounds on standby and MIDI Files by default talk to the GM Synth and tell it what sounds to play and when, etc.

Naturally, because it's all most people need and Microsoft doesn't want to waste a ton of hard drive space, RAM and processing power on MIDI playback, the sound is pretty horrible - good as a reference but not much else. The total data for those samples is somewhere around 4MB. You can't do much with that. dino_tongue.gif
Ah, I can follow so far :p

Quote
Anyway, I'm getting off-track!

You may have noticed if you listened to our old singing projects that the background music sounds significantly better than that. That's because I'm using dedicated software that contains MUCH more realistic samples, covering a vast array of instruments and performance styles. This software doesn't come cheap BUT...and here's where I come in:
True, it sounds MUCH better...

Quote
I'm happy to take your finished MIDI file and run it through my samplers to generate an MP3 for you if you'd like! I won't edit the MIDI any more than is necessary to get it to play nice with my software (which will mainly just involve setting velocity values, CC controllers and note timings and assigning notes to articulations in such a way that playback through my samplers sounds natural).

I've actually done a lot of software upgrades since the last singing project we've done here, which means the results will actually be significantly better than back when we did them before, due to the better technology (funny what 6 years will do). smile.gif

Well, that certainly sounds like an idea! If you have the required means to improve the MIDI without a lot of work and money being spent (both of which woundn't be the case I assume as you already have these sounds and it doesn't exactly sound like something taking ages to finish :yes) then I'm absolutely in favor of it!  :exactly Of course you may also "review" my MIDI if you see anything I could improve in it.

Quote
Just for reference, in a very short time (so musical expression isn't quite perfect, blah blah blah blah) I threw together this recreation by ear of part of the opening to the Great Migration track from the first LBT using these samplers. That's the kind of quality we can generate from your MIDI file. smile.gif
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B96eLzW5-...ZHpGU1I3UHJ3TUk (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B96eLzW5-...ZHpGU1I3UHJ3TUk)

That's the difference between 4MB of sample data and about 1.2 TB of it. dino_tongue.gif
Whatever instruments or performance styles your song needs, I'm 99.9% confident I have it somewhere in this collection so no matter the song we can make it work.
Whoa, that's darn close to the original!  :wow

Quote
Let me know if that sounds interesting! When you're done with the MIDI, just pass it over to me and I'll export an MP3 for ya. smile.gif
I shall!  :p Great idea!
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: action9000 on November 17, 2015, 06:11:28 PM
Quote
Well, that certainly sounds like an idea! If you have the required means to improve the MIDI without a lot of work and money being spent (both of which woundn't be the case I assume as you already have these sounds and it doesn't exactly sound like something taking ages to finish in-yes.gif) then I'm absolutely in favor of it!
It will take probably an hour or two - not a big deal. :)

Quote
Of course you may also "review" my MIDI if you see anything I could improve in it.
Certainly! If you're open to comments I'm happy to go over it.

Quote
Whoa, that's darn close to the original! dino_wow.gif
Muahahaha
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Kittybubbles on November 17, 2015, 09:35:30 PM
This looks pretty cool. I don't sing, but I listened to that one link posted on the form. (I wasn't on the site when the first one was posted) It was awesome. I loved the two singers' voices in Beyond the Mysterious Beyond. I would like to listen to more. Sadly, I don't have the knowledge to help in the creation of the soon to be awesome sounding piece of collaboration music.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on November 21, 2015, 08:14:50 AM
Alright guys, I think we can get started. :angel

The first thing we need to do is pick a song to sing so I can start preparing the background music.

I have some ideas how to pick a song:

1. You guys just name a few songs (maybe 3?) you'd want to do and we'll just sing whatever song most people vote for. Additionally, we could list these songs in an order of sorts.
For example: 1. Bestest Friends, 2 It Takes All Sorts, 3 The Lone Dinosaur etc.
The first mention would count more than the second and so on.

2. Same system, just there'll be a sort of second vote on the 3 most voted songs.

3. I'll pick a few songs which are, in my opinion, both popular and not too hard to do, and you'll vote for one, or we do multiple choice like in 1.)

4. We'll vote on one song from each sequel first. Then we have a poll between our favourites from each sequel.

So, let me know what you guys prefer and if it should be single choice or multiple choice. I know.. I like voting on things  :p We'll do the voting in this thread since if I'm opening a poll, also non participants of this project might vote and change the result...
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Nahla on November 23, 2015, 02:30:51 AM
I'll be in, even though chances are everyone will laugh at my 'singing'.

I'll need to practice whatever verse I'm meant to sing to try and get into tune or it will just sound silly. So whenever it starts just send me my singing lines so I can practice them to the music.

My schedule is a bit crazy right now as it's end of year exams at Uni, but I'm not too busy that I won't be able to record a singing clip.

Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on November 24, 2015, 10:48:20 AM
Hello guys, since nobody replied to my question concerning voting for the songs, I will decide how to vote for our songs. I'm going to PM all participants. You will receive a PM soon with the plead to list 5 songs in an order that you would like to sing. I will present the results once I have received all PMs (or most of them if a few people just don't reply...). I have changed my mind about voting for songs. Because I don't want to vote for a song everytime we do another one, I'll just give you the opportunity to name 5 and we'll sing the few most voted for songs in the order they are voted (thus it's important that you vote the songs in an order).
Before voting, please consider two things: 1. The songs should be ones YOU'd enjoy singing. 2. We should make sure to sing some songs which the first project hasn't covered yet (which are the best and easiest songs to do, admittedly :p).

That being said, I hope we complete the voting within the next two weeks so I can start working on the music after studying for my exam in early December :p
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: bestariana1girl on November 25, 2015, 05:54:35 PM
Quote from: Ducky123,Nov 24 2015 on  08:48 AM
Hello guys, since nobody replied to my question concerning voting for the songs, I will decide how to vote for our songs. I'm going to PM all participants. You will receive a PM soon with the plead to list 5 songs in an order that you would like to sing. I will present the results once I have received all PMs (or most of them if a few people just don't reply...). I have changed my mind about voting for songs. Because I don't want to vote for a song everytime we do another one, I'll just give you the opportunity to name 5 and we'll sing the few most voted for songs in the order they are voted (thus it's important that you vote the songs in an order).
Before voting, please consider two things: 1. The songs should be ones YOU'd enjoy singing. 2. We should make sure to sing some songs which the first project hasn't covered yet (which are the best and easiest songs to do, admittedly :p).

That being said, I hope we complete the voting within the next two weeks so I can start working on the music after studying for my exam in early December :p
Sounds good!
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: landbeforetimelover on November 25, 2015, 07:03:00 PM
I'm not around as much as I used to be but I'd love to participate if Action is up for doing another song. It would be fun to do another community project on the brink of the next sequel.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: action9000 on November 25, 2015, 10:42:02 PM
Quote from: landbeforetimelover,Nov 25 2015 on  04:03 PM
I'm not around as much as I used to be but I'd love to participate if Action is up for doing another song. It would be fun to do another community project on the brink of the next sequel.
I won't be making the music this time. I'm just available for questions.  :lol:
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on November 26, 2015, 01:15:25 PM
Hey LBTlover, even though it's not action but me this time hosting the project, you're welcome to participate  :exactly
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on December 24, 2015, 09:48:09 AM
Hey guys!

Finally received all votes (I knew it'd take people some time but this was longer than expected :angel) so without further ado I shall announce the first song we'll do: Let's go on an adventure, shall we? Adventuring it is!!!

It was a very close call though. Here are some runner-ups. We'll sing those next ;)
- It Takes All Sorts (I'm so happy that one didn't win! :lol)
- Bestest Friends
- Big Water / Peaceful Valley (same amount of votes)
- If We Hold On Together / Flip Flap & Fly (that one got most mentions btw :p)

Now on a slightly different note...

The current christmas break won't be long enough to finish writing the sheet music... I will have some very intense few weeks at university with 3 major exams to prepare for and lots of lab work to do so I sincerely doubt I can work on the project during that time. Therefore, my suggestion would be to postpone the actual work until mid-February (then I'll be free for 2 months!) but fully focus on the project once I'm free so we get the first song done in these two months I'll have tons of time to spare for it. That means I hope I won't have to wait for recordings as long as I had to wait for these votes :p
I hope everyone is okay with that  :unsure:
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: bestariana1girl on December 24, 2015, 08:29:17 PM
Completely understandable!
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Petrie on December 27, 2015, 10:26:57 PM
Interesting choice....Adventuring is one of those speak-singing songs.  Shouldn't be too hard to pull off.

And while I think this is a fun thing, I'm not interesting in rebooting my untrained voice. :p
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: NewOrder on December 28, 2015, 12:48:21 PM
What's the problem with It Takes All Sorts? :p

I don't know how to read music, and singing isn't my best trait, so coun't me out. It would be fun to do something along the lines of those Christmas carols, where you get everybody in a studio to record it, too bad our community is too spread for such a thing.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on December 28, 2015, 01:53:08 PM
Quote
Interesting choice....Adventuring is one of those speak-singing songs. Shouldn't be too hard to pull off.

And while I think this is a fun thing, I'm not interesting in rebooting my untrained voice. dino_tongue.gif
I had everyone vote on the songs so it's not really my choice :p Shouldn't be too hard to do indeed.

Don't worry, it's fine :) There are already more people participating than I expected! :yes

Quote
What's the problem with It Takes All Sorts? dino_tongue.gif
Well, the song itself is just lovely (in fact, it was my first vote! Voted right after I sent those PMs to everyone and only later realised how tricky it is...).
The problem with this song is the music writing. Following the orchestral background music would be a pain in the ass! I'd have to be creative as I can't always follow the background music like I can in "Adventuring" for example. This is a first for me, I've had some fun with MIDI files but never really put one together before so I'm quite relieved it's not an insanely hard song to start and learn with. :yes

Quote
I don't know how to read music, and singing isn't my best trait, so coun't me out. It would be fun to do something along the lines of those Christmas carols, where you get everybody in a studio to record it, too bad our community is too spread for such a thing.
Oh don't worry, like I replied to Petrie, there are already lots of people participating so it's not too bad not to have you in a song :) I would absolutely love to do what you suggest but I'm afraid 90% of us don't have the means to meet up somewhere to do this :p For me, the borders of my own country would be the limit...
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: action9000 on December 28, 2015, 05:14:22 PM
Quote
Following the orchestral background music would be a pain in the ass!
Yeah that basically sums it up nicely.  :lol  :lol

Good luck with Adventuring! Let me know if you'd like a copy of my Noteworthy Composer file that I wrote up for that song. :) If you'd rather just do your own thing with it, I totally get it!
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on December 29, 2015, 02:56:14 PM
I think I even have that file somewhere... Malte sent me a lot of MIDI files back when he gave me the program, I think there's an "Adventuring" one among them...
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: DarkWolf91 on December 29, 2015, 08:25:52 PM
Excellent! Adventuring was a first choice for me, I'm excited that it was chosen :smile
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: LBTDiclonius on January 01, 2016, 03:02:52 PM
Nice! Adventuring's pretty cool, not my choice, but let's do it.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Belmont2500 on January 02, 2016, 05:40:46 PM
I wouldn't mind giving it a shot. Though I'll probably wait it out until you guys get to doing songs that I am a bit more familiar with, such as Always There, It Takes All Sorts and No One Has To Be Alone.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on January 05, 2016, 07:39:02 AM
Sure, It Takes All Sorts will be the second song we sing so you could just skip Adventuring and join It Takes All Sorts once we're singing that one.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on March 05, 2016, 09:22:10 AM
Just a reminder: This project is not dead, its just about to really get started :yes I'll start working on the music soon. In the meantime, we could already plan some things, like
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Nimrod on March 10, 2016, 02:37:47 AM
I could send you my recording.
Ill try to record it in my break ;)
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on April 24, 2016, 06:57:57 PM
Hey everyone,

just to let you know... this project is not dead. I really underestimated the amount of time it takes to write the music (and the power of procrastination   :bang )
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: action9000 on April 24, 2016, 09:00:00 PM
Good luck Ducky123!  :D Now there are two people here who know how insane you go from listening to the same few seconds of the same LBT song that many times in a row. :lol
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: bestariana1girl on April 29, 2016, 01:39:13 PM
Quote from: Ducky123,Apr 24 2016 on  04:57 PM
Hey everyone,

just to let you know... this project is not dead. I really underestimated the amount of time it takes to write the music (and the power of procrastination   :bang )
Thank God! I was looking forward for this!
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: action9000 on April 30, 2016, 06:34:52 AM
Ducky123, I'm still happy to act as consultant for any technical stuff that comes up if you have any questions. I don't really have time to help with making the music or mixing but I'm more than willing to offer any advice I can.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on April 30, 2016, 08:21:33 AM
I know, Tim :) Luckily, I didn't encounter any bigger issues I couldn't figure out by myself yet. My biggest concern was how to change the instruments but I figured that out  :lol
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Belmont2500 on August 18, 2016, 01:42:16 PM
I'm not too late, am I? Ah well, here's hoping this singing project gets off the ground.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on August 18, 2016, 06:13:20 PM
I do wonder who's still willing to get it rolling? I'm sure I can finally force myself to finish the song if I know people are still interested :yes
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Belmont2500 on August 18, 2016, 09:59:49 PM
I can certainly sing and have been interested in participating in this since 2013, I believe.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: action9000 on August 23, 2016, 03:40:17 PM
Quote
I'm sure I can finally force myself to finish the song if I know people are still interested
A little tougher than it looks, isn't it?  :p   ;)

Haha seriously though, good luck! I'd love to see you finish it!
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on August 23, 2016, 03:49:59 PM
Yeah, you might say that. :p I'll try my very best to make it possible  :angel
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: retrorobby on August 24, 2016, 01:14:38 PM
Can't really sing but I would love to see this project. Good luck.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Belmont2500 on September 16, 2016, 05:34:43 PM
I'm probably going to do a vocal cover of 'If We Hold On Together' in the near future, just need to find a good instrumental track for the background.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: action9000 on September 18, 2016, 07:20:43 AM
I made an instrumental arrangement of If We Hold On Together about 10 years ago (so the virtual instrument tech isn't quite up to par but I don't think it's awful). It's completely different from the original song but you're welcome to use it if you wish.

It can be downloaded here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B96eLzW5-...NEFGYlo0OGk4WHc (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B96eLzW5--vYNEFGYlo0OGk4WHc)
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Belmont2500 on September 18, 2016, 02:24:19 PM
Thanks Tim.

I'll be honest, it still sounds very good after so long.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: action9000 on September 19, 2016, 10:44:59 PM
Quote from: Belmont2500,Sep 18 2016 on  12:24 PM
Thanks Tim.

I'll be honest, it still sounds very good after so long.
I'm glad you enjoyed it :)

I'm glad it's still seeing some use after all these years. I originally wrote that arrangement for one of our Gang of Five karaoke projects. There's a version of that music with a large number of GoF members singing the full lyrics to the song, including myself. In an effort to deal with the fact that everyone was recording on a different mic, I drowned the vocal parts in noise reduction and reverb and in hindsight probably over-processed the crap out of it, but that's okay. The alternative was pretty rough, too, so I made a call and ran with it. :p

At least for myself though, I use the term "singing" quite loosely. Singing was never exactly a strong skill of mine.  :lol

I still have that version posted up online if you're curious: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B96eLzW5-...cF9GcWk5M0V3bkk (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B96eLzW5--vYcF9GcWk5M0V3bkk)

At 1:28 in this vocal version, you can hear myself, tobeysan and Amethyst singing the second verse and second chorus. This was especially memorable for me because the 3 of us are friends in real life and we actually got together in tobeysan's basement, rigged up some audio equipment and recorded all 3 parts together, simultaneously on 2 computers and 3 microphones (panning 1 mic left and 1 mic right to capture both vocal parts independently).


I have an outtake recording of Tobeysan trying to sing the song for the first time and not knowing the lyrics. :lol Ah, good times!

Actually, lemme find that because it's funny....

[EDIT] HA! Here we go! :D
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B96eLzW5-...dEkyWFY5YnpkZTQ (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B96eLzW5--vYdEkyWFY5YnpkZTQ)
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: aabicus (LettuceBacon&Tomato) on October 13, 2016, 01:35:02 AM
So is this still happening? I finally have enough self-esteem to add my voice to the mix. We could even do a LBT 14 song to keep with the times.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on October 13, 2016, 03:00:02 AM
Things keep getting in the way, preventing me from making much progress on the song. :( I'll have my last exam for a while tomorrow, I hope I'll have more time in the next few weeks so I can finally finish adventuring...

I'm very open about trying a LBT 14 song if everybody agrees to that :)
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: action9000 on February 06, 2017, 03:48:34 PM
Hey Ducky!

Any luck on this?
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: ADFan185 on February 06, 2017, 05:07:29 PM
Looks like people are busy with there life's and abandoned this.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: action9000 on February 06, 2017, 05:15:13 PM
Yeah, that'll happen. These projects are a lot of tedious work and it's not for everyone.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on February 06, 2017, 05:42:46 PM
Quote
Hey Ducky!

Any luck on this?
Whenever I want to actually sit down and do this, something else comes up and I forget about it again  :bang I should have enough time to pull it off this spring, it's just a matter of doing it... just keep pestering me guys, really, do! :lol:
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: ADFan185 on February 06, 2017, 06:04:35 PM
Okay I'm looking forward to hearing and seeing this
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: action9000 on March 14, 2017, 04:03:04 AM
I may make a habit of bumping this once a month just to keep it alive.  :yes
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: ADFan185 on March 15, 2017, 01:12:59 PM
That's a good idea
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on March 16, 2017, 01:02:30 PM
Yeah  ^^spike

I'm about to have a job until the end of March so again no time  <_<
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: ADFan185 on March 17, 2017, 07:27:52 AM
Well that's awesome that you're getting job tho. Good luck With the job. What job are you getting anyway?
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Flathead770 on July 14, 2017, 01:14:03 PM
It's awesome that you're trying to bring this back. If you're still working on this then I am totally down for participating! Adventuring is the song? I can get behind that. I've actually been singing LBT songs on my 30min drive to work recently to help wake myself up at 5am and Adventuring is one of them.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on July 15, 2017, 02:04:45 PM
Well, I've just tried getting back into it yeah but it's tough :D Found a program that's a little easier to use now so I really hope I get some progress done soon  :)
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Flathead770 on July 17, 2017, 06:09:55 PM
No worries. I can imagine that it would be pretty darn hard to do. Best of luck!

I was looking back and I found out that I signed up for Tim's Beyond the Mysterious Beyond sometime before I dropped off (though finding out he never finished it until 2015 makes me feel a bit better) so I hope I can stick around for this one.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on July 18, 2017, 07:51:08 AM
It's been a long while since I originally announced this so maybe I should start the call for participants anew? Also, if there's anybody who can help me with the music would be really helpful (like, somebody to look over my stuff and make suggestions/corrections :)

I'll have more time on my hands from next week on so hopefully I can show a little preview by then... though I won't care much for instrumentation much and just focus on getting the notes right :angel
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Flathead770 on July 18, 2017, 06:45:50 PM
I could take a look whenever your ready. I don't know how much of a help I'll be but the way I look at it is that at the very worst I won't be of any help at all. :p
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on July 19, 2017, 11:54:41 AM
haha, I guess so :lol:
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: aabicus (LettuceBacon&Tomato) on July 26, 2017, 03:53:03 AM
Still here and down to sing
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Fyn16 on August 14, 2017, 05:43:17 PM
Same here! I'm actually involved in a musical at the moment, so I'm certainly in the right mindset.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: bestariana1girl on August 27, 2017, 01:31:40 AM
Sounds good
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on August 27, 2017, 11:02:08 AM
My progress has halted a bit lately but I hope I can show you a preview soon at least  :oops
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Belmont2500 on September 13, 2017, 11:45:23 PM
I'm still interested if a spot remains open.  :)
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Flathead770 on January 29, 2018, 01:55:40 AM
I've been thinking over the last few days that to get our feet wet we could try and redo a song that was already done before.
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Ducky123 on February 04, 2018, 10:19:22 PM
To be honest, I don't think I have the energy and dedication to work on this project atm... :(
Title: GoF Singing Project reloaded?
Post by: Flathead770 on February 05, 2018, 09:51:42 PM
No worries. That's completely understandable.