Game music and in-game locations: A conundrum

[action9000]

Hey everyone! I recently ended up in a situation that got me thinking about a different side of video game music:

Are video game "shop" and "friendly building" themes cursed?

I just mean, okay: Take a game with, what you'd consider, a good soundtrack. When you think about the "best" pieces of music on the soundtrack, does the "shop" theme or "friendly building" theme ever come up in your top 3 or top 5 favorite pieces of music in the game?

If you're like me, the answer is probably not. I'm just curious if I'm alone on this or if shop/friendly building music is destined to be among the least-interesting music in a particular game.

Even games with decent friendly building music (let's take the Pokemon Center theme from Pokemon Red/Blue/Whatever). That same game has so many other great themes that I'd argue the pokemon center theme gets pushed back behind many of the other in-game music pieces. It's memorable, sure, but would I consider it better than most of the soundtrack? In my top 3 or top 5 favorite pieces from the game? Probably not.

Let's take Donkey Kong Country 2 as another example. This game is often considered to have one of the best soundtracks in any video game ever. When you hear the "Kong Kollege" theme or the "Funky's Flights" theme, do you feel they're on par with tracks like Hot Head Hop, the Swamp theme, the Mines theme or Stickerbrush Symphony? Probably not. I have a playlist that contains this game's soundtrack. I purposely removed the "friendly building" themes from my playlist because they're so bland to me compared to the greatness of most of the soundtrack.

I feel the only exceptions are cases where the game has a unique friendly building theme for your house or starting base (Earthbound, Pokemon). Outside of that starting building, I think this argument holds true.

What do you think? Is there truly a "curse of the friendly building theme music" or can you think of some exceptions?

I'm in a situation right now where I need to write an "in-store" theme for a game and I'm running into this exact problem. I'm convinced there really is a curse that says the shop/store music in your game will be among the least interesting pieces of music in the game, by nature.

I'm curious if someone can show me otherwise.   I'm trying to find examples of exceptions to this rule but I can't find a fricking thing.

[F-14 Ace]

Below are some examples I like.  See what you think of these.  The Ace Combat games tend to avoid this problem.

While the games can't boast much in the way of "shop" music, the closest thing to "friendly building" music the games have is the music that plays in the briefing room and hangar segments before missions.  Those tend to be pretty good.

From Ace Combat 4.
Operation, aka Briefing Music 1.

Second Strike, aka Briefing Music 2.

Both are exciting and get you hyped for the mission you're about to undertake.

"Mobius"
"Mobius", the plane selection music from the final mission is epic.

From Ace Combat 5:

Briefing one.  Decent but not the best.

Hangar Music 1 from the plane selection screen.

Briefing 2.  Epic, heroic, and badass.  This music just screams "You're about to kick some ass and this is how you're gonna do it."

Hanger theme 2.  From the game's second plane selection screen.

From Ace Combat Zero:

Sortie 1.  The first plane selection theme in the game.

While Ace combat 6's briefing and pre-sortie tracks were rather bland, Sortie 5 stands out.

I will agree with you though, that the "friendly building music" tends to get overshadowed by more awesome music in the game.  The background music that plays during missions in Ace Combat typically puts most of the above tracks to shame, except the second briefing theme from Ace Combat 5.  That one is awesome enough that it can stand up there with the best.

[action9000]

Those are very cool tracks and great reference material. Thanks for the heads up, F-14 Ace!    

I'm still checking out the last couple you linked but these are great examples so far!

[F-14 Ace]

I see I posted the wrong link to the first one.  Fixed.

[DarkWolf91]

You mean you don't want to listen to the Zelda shop music... for ten hours??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLAekpsclQY  

In all seriousness though, I always liked the potion shop theme:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cDThq1fIJc
Shops can be atmospheric, too!

[ADFan185]

My favorite video game music is from Secret Of Mana. Man did it have some awesome music in the game.

[vonboy]

Even if it's osme of the most un-interesting music in a game, you kind of need it anyway. In those games you mentioned, the shop music fits the location very well, and really adds to the atmospheric. Even if it's not anyone's favorite music, it would feel very weird and out of place to not have it in.

I don't know why you're being so negative on this. Those shop tracks always add to the atmosphere of a game, they don't really take anything away by having them in.

Oh, and I do love the Malo Mart theme from Twilight Princess
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vISBI_C_bJw It just sounds so... crazy for a zelda theme  

[action9000]

Even if it's osme of the most un-interesting music in a game, you kind of need it anyway.

I completely agree with you.

I don't know why you're being so negative on this. Those shop tracks always add to the atmosphere of a game, they don't really take anything away by having them in.

I'm sorry I came across as negative. I agree with you that shop tracks absolutely add to the overall experience of the game and the game would be much worse-off without them.

The only reason the thought even occurred to me at all is because I"m currently in a position in a project where I needed to write a theme similar to a shop theme. In the process I've found myself butting my head against this problem, where it's proving to be a massive undertaking to get the shop theme to sound as appealing as the other tracks I've made for the game. When I say "appealing" in this context, I mean something that holds up as something to listen to on its own and be as engaging as the rest of the soundtrack. In the case of shop themes, this seems to be a serious challenge to achieve. I'm just trying to determine if this problem is just me or if it's something fairly universal.

My argument is simply that shop tracks seem to be incapable of making it on to a typical listener's "top x favorite tracks" from a game. I have some shop themes I enjoy, such as Earthbound's or Snowboard Kids' but when I compare those shop themes to the rest of the soundtrack, even those great shop themes don't make me want to listen to them as much as my favorite tracks in the game. The shop tracks just never seem to quite make "the list". I can't help but wonder if part of it is BECAUSE the track is "just a shop theme", rather than a boss battle theme or your favorite level's theme.

   You mean you don't want to listen to the Zelda shop music... for ten hours??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLAekpsclQY dino_laugh.gif

In all seriousness though, I always liked the potion shop theme:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cDThq1fIJc

Haha that is a pretty cool shop theme. I am curious: When listing your top Zelda: Ocarina of Time / Majora's Mask music, would you put this theme in your Top 3 or top 5 or would it fall somewhere further down?

Oh, and I do love the Malo Mart theme from Twilight Princess
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vISBI_C_bJw It just sounds so... crazy for a zelda theme dino_laugh.gif

Haha this is crazy.   Same question: Would you put this in your top 3 or top 5 Twilight Princess pieces of music?

Again, the argument isn't "shop themes can't be good". I get they can be pretty cool.  

My argument is that, in the context of the rest of the game's soundtrack, shop themes rarely end up in a listener's top few favorite tracks from the game. I'm just trying to find evidence for or against this idea.

[ADFan185]

Depends on the shop music in games some are very horrible

[DarkWolf91]

Haha that is a pretty cool shop theme. I am curious: When listing your top Zelda: Ocarina of Time / Majora's Mask music, would you put this theme in your Top 3 or top 5 or would it fall somewhere further down?

That's an interesting question. Its hard for me to rate in-game music objectively in most situations, because it's very difficult to separate it from the context, i.e. cutscene or dungeon, that I first experienced it in.
I think the main reason shop themes don't often make the top five is because they are, by their nature, pretty short and one-dimensional. I think in order to make the shop music more memorable, the shop and shopkeeper would have to be more than just plaster walls and a bland NPC. Giving the shop and keeper a personality would give the player more of a context in which to judge the music, and if that music is particularly fitting within the character context, it would be much more memorable.
Which is why I rather enjoy the potion shop theme! It perfectly fits the ambience of the in-game potion shop and the mysterious hag who runs it. I don't know if it makes the top 3, but I definitely don't skip it when it comes on the playlist

[action9000]

I think the main reason shop themes don't often make the top five is because they are, by their nature, pretty short and one-dimensional.

I agree this is probably the biggest challenge composers face when trying to make shop themes interesting - There's very little narrative material to work with and your job is basically to capture the essence of the world in a static scene with static characters.

One reason I wonder if this is a necessary evil or a "curse" though, is there are a many older games that appear to be equally one-dimensional:

Let's take a typical level in an NES Megaman game. Those games are famous for having great soundtracks but..let's be honest, stuff you do when you're playing a single level is VERY one-dimensional! You're running, shooting and jumping. That's it. The pace doesn't really change. The atmosphere doesn't change much...but the soundtracks are still awesome.

The deciding factor here seems to be whether the scene is an action scene or a scene that puts pressure on a player. If the scene does, it seems to offer a lot more options in terms of musical interest curve generation. If the scene doesn't put the player in a conflict or a position where the narrative is advancing, the music has nothing to work with so the best it can do is establish mood for the static scene - as a result, the music will also be static-sounding.

I wonder if there's a way around this problem from a composer's point of view.

I think in order to make the shop music more memorable, the shop and shopkeeper would have to be more than just plaster walls and a bland NPC.

That would make the composer's job a lot more interesting.

I hate writing shop themes They're notoriously boring to work on because you have absolutely nothing to go on. It's literally "make something that's consistent with the world atmosphere. Go." As a composer, I feel like my choices don't matter much. You can have a little fun with it but it's nothing like making music for an action or dramatic scene where the player is invested.

In a shop, it basically just functions as background music to remind players "hey, you're still in this world, remember??" I feel like that's the main problem. A shop theme serves to try and strap players to a chair and hold them in the world when the world alone isn't enough to keep them there at that moment.

[vonboy]

Haha that is a pretty cool shop theme. I am curious: When listing your top Zelda: Ocarina of Time / Majora's Mask music, would you put this theme in your Top 3 or top 5 or would it fall somewhere further down?

That's an interesting question. Its hard for me to rate in-game music objectively in most situations, because it's very difficult to separate it from the context, i.e. cutscene or dungeon, that I first experienced it in.
I think the main reason shop themes don't often make the top five is because they are, by their nature, pretty short and one-dimensional. I think in order to make the shop music more memorable, the shop and shopkeeper would have to be more than just plaster walls and a bland NPC. Giving the shop and keeper a personality would give the player more of a context in which to judge the music, and if that music is particularly fitting within the character context, it would be much more memorable.
Which is why I rather enjoy the potion shop theme! It perfectly fits the ambience of the in-game potion shop and the mysterious hag who runs it. I don't know if it makes the top 3, but I definitely don't skip it when it comes on the playlist

Well, that is kinda what the shop them I linked does. Malo himself is a character that looks like a small child, who hangs out with two older kids in your starting villages. Even though he's the youngest, he kinda let's on that he's very intelligent. Later in the game, you have to do some quests for him, and only after you do these sidequests, he open's up Malo Mart.

So that theme does involve a character you know from the beginning of the game, one that's a little odd or mysterious in a way, and have to interact with several times to even hear the theme. That's probably part of the reason it's so memorable to me.