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Let's talk about the weather

Malte279

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Hi,
as some other threads broached the subject I made some brainstorm notes about a couple of elements which could take a very strong influence on the game. While there are some ideas we already discussed on MSN Tim there are also some subjects we haven't mentioned so far. In any case, anything I say are just ideas and suggestions while I am incapable of making a good estimate about which elements can be programmed and which cannot. So please nobody should take anything I say as some kind of announcements.
The elements I'm referring to are mainly the weather, the time of the day (both of which are interlinked to some degree), and the ground / terrain. All of these elements are likely to exert a very strong influence on what characters can do and what they can't and how difficult it would be.
I parted the elements in a couple of categories:

Time:
In many ways the time of the day would influence other elements about which more will be said later in this post (so I'm not going to talk too much about that part now). One of the most obvious differences between day and nighttime would be that at night (apart from a drop of temperatures) most NPCs would be sleeping and the visibility range ought to be seriously limited. This can be both beneficial (it's easier to sneak past a sleeping sharptooth when he could not rely too much on his sense of vision (he could still smell you) to find you) and encumbering (you too will not be able to see potential dangers as early as you might in broad daylight).

Temperature:
Simply put this could be three main states, hot, medium, and cold. Medium is what you would get on an average Great Valley day and it would not have a particular influence. Hot is what you would get sometimes depending on the weather (more on that later) and which would be an almost permanent state in deserts during daytime. Hot weather will be very taxing on your stamina and particularly so if you undertake special efforts (running, climbing, etc.) It also creates a special need for water (already mentioned in another thread) similar to the special need for oxygen in case of a diving character. Flyers might moderately benefit from hot weather as it might increase updrift winds (especially along rocky walls) so they would not have to flap as frequently to stay up in the air (this might to a limited degree compensate for the stamina loss to which flyers would be subjected same as everyone else). Staying in the shadow (of trees, rocks, larger characters etc.) is a good way to diminish the loss of stamina when the temperature is hot.
Cold is similar to hot in its effects. Increased stamina loss and you need to warm up (hot springs, shelters, staying close together etc.) similar to the need to drink during hot temperatures. Flying would be very taxing with the downdrifts of cold air.
Maybe there is a need for more temperature states. Perhaps a desert at night would behave like medium temperature land, but medium land should not be as taxing as some arctic region at night, that arctic region however would be even colder at night, wouldn't it? Anyway, it depends on how much can be realized and how much detail we want to have in.

Weather:
Clear Sky - Far visibility. It would often (not always of course) occur in combination with hot or cold temperatures. Flyers benefit from the fact that nothing is blocking out the sun which warms up the ground thus creating updrafts.
Cloudy Sky - Visibility still far though not quite as much as in case of a clear sky. Often found in moderate temperature regions.
Overcast - Lower visibility range and not much of an updrift for the flyers to be found.
Fog - Extremely low visibility. Might slow down characters, might disable flyers from flying because they see nothing except their most immediate surroundings.
Rain - Perhaps rain could come in two different forms, a slight drizzle or some really strong rain. The drizzle might be beneficial to characters in slowing down the decrease of stamina, but at the same time it might slow them down if the characters are walking on the respective terrain (more about that later). Strong rain would nullify the positive effect on the stamina and slow the characters down. Either form of rain would decrease the visibility range.
Snow - that's basically rain in combination with cold temperatures. It would not have a positive effect on the stamina, but it would slow you down and be vicious for flyers if they try to fly in it (rapid decrease of stamina if they try).
Thunderstorm - this would be the combination of rain and strong wind (more on wind later) along with some thunder and lightning. It would slow down anyone and flyers would not be permitted to fly any higher than their fellow character's walking altitude (we don't want Petrie to be toasted and even at the very low altitude the wind might make flying tricky). Visibility would be rather short.

Wind:
No wind - No effect.
Breeze - Slight benefit / penalty on flyer's speed and stamina decreas depending on whether they are flying with or against the wind.
Wind - Same as above but the benefit / penalty is increased.
Strong wind - the benefit / penalty is further increased and only experienced flyers should dare to fly in this weather that will impose slight speed and stamina penalties even upon their earthbound friends (no matter weather they are walking with or against the wind).
Storm - No flyer can fly in that and strong penalties are imposed on speed and stamina of walking characters as well. As this would be a rare case of a natural disaster we might want to consider something like health point damage from flying debris if you get hit. Characters are well advised to seek shelter.

Terrain:
Slopes are already done the way they should be slow you down to the point of no progress when they are really steep respectively speed you up if you run down. The main point here is the ground you are walking on.
Earth - That's the regular ground which will impose no bonus or penalty in normal weather. Rain however can turn it into mud which will slow walking characters down and increase stamina loss.
Rock - No rain is going to soften up the rocky ground in the mountains, so you would usually get faster from A to B on rocky ground. The nature of the terrain (steep rocky walls etc.) takes away some of that benefit though if you have to take roundabouts. Also this is a hard ground to land on in case you fall onto it or mess up a landing if you are a flyer. You would rather want to fall on soft earth or sand instead.
Sand - Found along banks, shores, and in deserts sand is going to slow you down and increase stamina loss. It makes a comparatively cushioned landing in case you fall onto it. Unlike earth, sand will not be turned into mud by rain and therefore not make for any additional penalty in case of rainy weather.
Quicksand / moor: No matter what, you don't want to walk into this as it will make you sink unless your friends save you (not scientifically correct, but that's what we see in LBT movies so I guess for once we got to abandon science).
Water: Much of this is already done. You wade (slowed down and increased stamina loss) in shallow and swim in deep water. Whether or not that is a benefit depends partly on what kind of character you are. Diving will start the oxygen bar to run down. There is a lot more to be said on currents etc. but that is a whole new topic in itself which should be discussed elsewhere.
Ice: In cold regions that is the usual ground. You cannot stop here quickly without sliding on for some distance, so you don't want to run on ice that is anywhere close to an abyss. If we are talking of ice covering a lake larger characters may (for good or bad) break through the sheet of ice. The water below would usually be so cold that it takes a toll on stamina and possibly HP if you end up in it.

The different elements described above would have very various effects if combined in different ways. For example Rain in hot weather while walking on earth without any wind might sum up to rather muggy weather that would slow you down. At normal weather the slow down effect may not be as bad if it wasn't for that sand you were walking on.
Obviously some features cannot be combined. You are not going to walk over sandy ground in a blizzard while the temperature is hot and there is no wind at all :p


DarkWolf91

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Ah wow, this is very thorough! I'll probably add more later, but for now a quick thought: It might be neat if flyers could fly above the fog to scout for landmarks. Of course clearing the fog in reduced visibility (and also landing again) would have its risks, but I think it would be a neat feature.



Mumbling

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Good ideas Malte.

As for the sleeping NPC. Do you think it would be better to remove them off screen, or actually make an animation of them sleeping? I know the second one is more realistic, but also harder to do, I think.

Was just wondering, will there be something like hail too? (maybe didnt see it)


Malte279

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Quote
It might be neat if flyers could fly above the fog to scout for landmarks. Of course clearing the fog in reduced visibility (and also landing again) would have its risks, but I think it would be a neat feature.
Interesting. I guess this might work in case of low fog and high landmarks (mountaintops etc.).
Quote
As for the sleeping NPC. Do you think it would be better to remove them off screen, or actually make an animation of them sleeping? I know the second one is more realistic, but also harder to do, I think.
I guess if we take the example of a sharptooth you got to sneak put it would have to be visible.
There is one thing I forgot about the wind. If you are trying to sneak past anyone, you should try not to have the wind in your back, or else your scent will be carried far ahead of you. To alarm anyone.
With the weather being so important we would have to implement ways to make sure the player knows about the conditions (including wind direction etc.).


Kor

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I would guess weather conditions would be much harder to program in.  Maybe best handled for later.  

Another thing about night is there would be 2 color schemes for things, as seen in the lbt movies & episodes.  1 is a daytime color scheme and the 2nd is the darkness color scheme, as seen in night scenes, scenes in dark caves ect.  

Also for time of day, in the lbt movies & episodes it seems to be happening around noon unless it is specifically supposed to be sunset or sunrise, as needed for a scene.   & the weather seems to be a nice sunny day, unless the plot says otherwise, though these are likely done to keep things simpler for the animators and writers & perhaps the sound effects folks.


Serris

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This is what I can see for hail:

Cold weather penalty
Flyers are grounded
Characters take minor damage from hailstones (Not sure about this because I'm not sure if the hailstones are large enough to inflict injury)
Visibility drops

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Malte279

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I like the idea of hail but to make it something different from snow I suggest that indeed it should cause (small) health damage unless you take shelter under a tree, in a cave or the like. Flying would be impossible during hail, as you suggested, but I don't think the cold weather penalties would have to be implemented. Hail can occur even in summer, so it would not have to come with the cold weather penalties, but on the downside it might occur in normal temperatures (not in hot ones) as well.


Serris

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Hmm. Should we implement sandstorms as well? Obviously this a desert region only weather.

Visibility drops (almost to 0)
Stamina decreases faster
Damage is incurred unless in shelter (cave or something. Non enclosed areas <rocks, trees or shrubs> will lessen the damage but will not eliminate it.)
Flyers are grounded
Movement speed is much slower

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NaNaNa

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Wow Malte, you really thought this one through.

Maybe during rain you can see the footprints of other dinosaurs around and tell what they are or where they're going, or, if we include a minimap into the game, it could expand because of a heightened sense of smell (from what I've learned in chemistry I'm pretty sure if something's wet it smells stronger)

I agree with Kor though, implementing weather effects into the game will take a while. Best focus on more basic stuff for now


Malte279

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Hmm. Should we implement sandstorms as well? Obviously this a desert region only weather.
Great minds think alike Serris :lol
Just a few hours ago Tim and I discussed some details about sandstorms. And we came up with almost exactly the same scenario as you did. I think we did not include the damage unless in shelter part, but it makes sense to include this.
You don't happen to know the computer game Gothic 3, do you? The game includes sandstorms which are really well done graphic wise (lack of visibility etc.) but which sadly pose no impediment whatsoever to the player.
Something very similar would under the label "blizzard" make the cold weather version while in moderate weather the thunderstorm would be the trick.
Quote
Maybe during rain you can see the footprints of other dinosaurs around and tell what they are or where they're going, or, if we include a minimap into the game, it could expand because of a heightened sense of smell (from what I've learned in chemistry I'm pretty sure if something's wet it smells stronger)
Awesome! You broached a subject I thoroughly neglected so far NaNaNa :yes
The matter of tracking others had been mentioned before, but I thoroughly forgot to include any reference to it in the above text. The different grounds would have different effects on tracks.
Rock - No visible tracks, it would be scent only in rocky terrain.
Earth - Tracks would be normally visible. In Muddy earth tracks would be very clearly visible but they would not last too long in the rain.
Sand - Tracks distinctly visible but prone to be just blown away quickly by the wind.
Ice - Tracks barely visible unless (and in that case they would stand out most distinct of all) the ice is covered with snow.
Water - that's the route to take if you are pursued and don't want to leave either tracks or scent for whoever may be following you.

The weather would have some effects on tracks (already indicated above). When its very dry tracks would probably vanish quickly (gone with the wind so to speak). With some humidity (drizzle / recent rain) they would stand out and would not vanish too quickly either. Heavy rain would probably muddy up the soil and thus wash away both tracks and scent. Snow would be a double edged sword, while lying on the ground nothing would make as clear a footprint as snow, but when it is falling from the sky it would also cover up any tracks in no time.

PS: One more aspect of snow is that it might give a mercifully soft landing to anyone either falling down from some higher place (oops, didn't watch the ice near the abbys) or to the flyer who dared to defy the hardships of flying in winter weather.


NaNaNa

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Well Malte, that would give flyers an advantage, since, y'know...they fly. Of course the other thread was discussing the adverse affects of flying in bad weather so that could balance it out.

I think if we track others based solely on their footprints or scent, this would make the game a lot more realistic than having a minimap on the corner. This would also make the stealth function of the game a lot more interesting, and would make weather patterns much more significant.

Footprints is obvious. scent could be like an arrow pointing in the general direction of the thing you're trying to smell and the distance. Smells that you're familiar with will be identified, while others would just appear as an ???


Malte279

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I suppose that smell would be primarily a quest related ability though and come in if you are really looking for something difficult to find (or dangerous when you found it with your sense of vision rather than knowing about it earlier). The sense of scent would thus not "strike the alarm" at every treestar in the Great Valley or about every not dangerous NPC there. However if you are sent to find somebody or something specifically it may come in usefull. I suppose for good or bad sense of smell would be seriously limited when wind is blowing and disabled in strong wind. A breeze blowing scent your way (or in the way of something you would rather not notice your scent) on the other hand would enhance its range, but only if it was indeed a breeze rather than a stronger wind which would more likely scatter the scent.

As for unfamiliar smells, that's something the characters can learn...
Which opens up a new field of character improvement. Maybe the scent ability would be something that does not come automatically (except as a warning of danger or in case of an unknown scent) but you could deliberately pick one of the scents you know to check if it is anywhere nearby. So long that scent is activated this scent and only this one (again except in case of a danger scent) would be marked. That way of activating scent deliberately would allow for it to be used to find even something trivial as a treestar in the Great Valley after all.
I don't know if anyone here knows the game Spore, but it could be similar to the way you can use your radar there to find specific objects (it's something like beams along with a sound that accelerates if you approach the object in that game).

Quote
Well Malte, that would give flyers an advantage, since, y'know...they fly. Of course the other thread was discussing the adverse affects of flying in bad weather so that could balance it out.
Weather willing flyers would make perfect scouts who can find ways and things or warn of dangers while in many cases they would not be able to accomplish the tasks by themselves (Petrie may find Dinah and Dana, but he is not exactly the authority that could make them come along).


NaNaNa

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I suppose what you could do is choose from a number of possible things to smell from a menu. I imagine you click on something on the screen or use the arrow keys to scroll through a list and select what you want. For example, if you were the in the middle of the desert, you would select food and then a subcategory of treestars, and you start smelling for any treestars in range.

As for sniffing as a character development thing, yeah that might work out. Spiketails and clubtails would probably have the strongest initial sniffer power and the highest cap. You could improve on abilities like being able only to smell if something's a general species at first and then specific people.

I'm just thinking out loud

That scout flyer thing sounds nice


Kor

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sharpteeth would have the best senses of smell.  Though with flatteeth and omnivores would one have the ability to purchase or acquire a better then normal sense of smell like Spike has or is it best to treat Spike as a fluke put there for just ease of plot resolution at times?


NaNaNa

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Quote from: Kor,Mar 11 2009 on  06:53 PM
sharpteeth would have the best senses of smell.  Though with flatteeth and omnivores would one have the ability to purchase or acquire a better then normal sense of smell like Spike has or is it best to treat Spike as a fluke put there for just ease of plot resolution at times?
Not too sure what they should purchase it with


Serris

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I think Kor means a level up ability.

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NaNaNa

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Oh. Well I just thought spiketails would already have a much better sense of smell than the other classes, it would be the instinctive advantage of spiketails


Malte279

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^ I like the idea. Tim and I had been discussing for quite a while what to do about the spiketails who seemed to be comparatively unattractive if their skills and abilities were compared to others. A bonus on their scent may really make them more interesting for the players.


Kor

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Also the way they eat faster, I recall Tippy's mother giving him a tip on how to bolt his food so he can eat faster.  Maybe they can replenish their stamina from green food fastest of any of the larger types.  That could be another ability maybe, in addition to the scene smell level ability thing.  

The scent thing could fit in since Spike had to be taught how to find a person by Chomper, before he could find food from long away as seen in the 8th movie so this could have been a level boost to his smell that he was taught by Chomper how to use it.

Maybe since it seems of the gang that Spike is the strongest, Spiketails could start off at level 1 with slightly higher strength then even a longneck, but a longneck gains strength or can gain strength faster or at higher levels then a spiketail so over time longnecks will wind up stronger, as Littlefoot will wind up stronger then Spike eventually.


NaNaNa

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Spike seems like he could be the workhouse of the gang if he actually tried. Practically that title goes to Cera or Littlefoot, but maybe you could give this trait to spike in the game.

Either way spiketails definately should be the best tracker out of all of them. And I agree with Kor about spiketails should also have the greatest stamina increase from eating food.