The Gang of Five
The forum will have some maintenance done in the next couple of months. We have also made a decision concerning AI art in the art section.


Please see this post for more details.

Gender relations in The Land Before Time

Noname · 20 · 1857

Noname

  • The Gang of Five
  • *
    • Posts: 13211
    • View Profile
    • http://z6.invisionfree.com/Fantasy_RP_Board/index.php?act=idx
I felt moved to make this thread after receiving a certain PM. So, what do you think of the relative status of males and females as portrayed in the Land Before time Series?


Kor

  • The Circle
  • The Gang of Five
  • *
    • Posts: 30087
    • View Profile
It seems they are treated pretty much as equals to me.


landbeforetimelover

  • Member+
  • Littlefoot
  • *
    • Posts: 8495
  • Littlefoot
    • View Profile
    • http://www.thelandbeforetime.org
Yeah, they're equals.  The males do have more aggressive tendencies, but that will be true of any society no matter how equal the genders are.  What...have you noticed any gender inequality Noname?


Noname

  • The Gang of Five
  • *
    • Posts: 13211
    • View Profile
    • http://z6.invisionfree.com/Fantasy_RP_Board/index.php?act=idx
Seems that there is little to no female input in how the valley is run...


landbeforetimelover

  • Member+
  • Littlefoot
  • *
    • Posts: 8495
  • Littlefoot
    • View Profile
    • http://www.thelandbeforetime.org
Naw.  It's just that with Littlefoot and Cera being the main characters, their father/grandfather fighting is all we tend to see.  There seems to be a general vote for most large decisions which logically includes the female dinosaurs.


Noname

  • The Gang of Five
  • *
    • Posts: 13211
    • View Profile
    • http://z6.invisionfree.com/Fantasy_RP_Board/index.php?act=idx

Malte279

  • The Circle
  • The Gang of Five
  • *
    • Posts: 15608
    • View Profile
    • http://www.ineinemlandvorunsererzeit.de.vu
It was mentioned in the flashback in LBT 7 though, a movie in which we saw Ducky's mother really telling off Cera's Dad. In the very same movie Petrie's mother took the initiative to search for the kids and finally rescue them.
We see Littlefoot's grandma on some occasions sort of making decisions for his grandpa (though never against serious opposition). We know of at least one female herd leader (the old one). There are more male herd leaders so far (Bron, and that Stegosaurus herd leader), but there have also been herds where we don't know who the leader was (we don't even know if all those herds have such a thing as a leader at all or if there are other more democratic outfits like the one in the Great Valley).


Paradise Bird

  • Petrie
  • *
    • Posts: 874
    • View Profile
    • http://sporeleaf.forumotion.net/creators-hall-f7/post-your-dinos-here-
Well I think females are being streotyped in LBT thay are often seen to be a clueless crowd.


Cancerian Tiger

  • Member+
  • Littlefoot
  • *
    • Posts: 6961
    • View Profile
I think that, based on the fact female residents attend the council meetings in the valley, they are not mistreated.  There are many areas in the human world where this kind of thing is unheard of, so I don't really see any sexism going on here.  If I did see a good degree of it, I would've made a complaint to Universal by now.  Whether or not they'd listen is beyond my control.  For somebody who views sexism as disgusting as racism, I have not found much sexism happening in LBT, at least as far as how the characters treat each other is concerned.  The issue I do have is how Universal all of a sudden began making the majority of their newer female characters pink :x.


Noname

  • The Gang of Five
  • *
    • Posts: 13211
    • View Profile
    • http://z6.invisionfree.com/Fantasy_RP_Board/index.php?act=idx
Well... I suppose it can be hard to tell Dinosaurs apart just by looking at them... so making Tria, Ruby, Sue, Tricia, and Ruby's mother pink makes it easier to distinguish them as female.

Although, that said, neither Tippy's mother, nor Ducky's mother, Petrie's mother, the female rainbowface, that mother sauropod from movie six, nor Littlefoot's mother are colored pink... same thing with Littlefoot's Grandmother... so they don't really NEED to color them pink to tell them apart from males. The old one isn't pink, nor is Ali's mother...

Chomper's mother isn't pink either, although the thought of a pink tyrannosaurus is pretty funny.  :lol

They could just draw the female as being smaller than the males of her species, and give her a higher voice, as well as mention that she is a female in the first place, as well as a lighter skin tone.

As for the seventh movie... it is still well within the bounds of "old-fashioned" gender relations for a mother to get angry when her child has been kidnapped, and for another woman to get mad when her brother is the one who did the act!


Amaranthine

  • Member+
  • Littlefoot
  • *
    • Posts: 7354
  • Can You Love Me Despite The Cracks?
    • View Profile
I just wanted to bump this topic.

I'm going to have to disagree with the majority here. It seems in LBT the women that "try" to be strong are b*******, but the women that aren't strong they completely are submissive and have everyone step all over them.

This is why I love Ruby and Petrie's mom so much. Both characters don't take anyone's crap, they are sweet, but not sugary sweet. Ruby is a nice mix between Little Foot and Cera, balancing out two major opposites. Brains and strength. Sure, she's Not really a fighter like Cera, but she still has her moments.

I do think Little Foot's mom was a strong character, if she wasn't, I highly doubt she would fight the sharptooth, the biggest baddie of them all. I do have some personal grudges against her, like being a racist. Still I give her a huge applause for fighting off the sharptooth, even though she dies in the end.

So do I think LBT is sexist? Yeah, it is, but with these few strong characters and some male characters I really adore, I still can see myself watching it.




Malte279

  • The Circle
  • The Gang of Five
  • *
    • Posts: 15608
    • View Profile
    • http://www.ineinemlandvorunsererzeit.de.vu
Quote
I'm going to have to disagree with the majority here. It seems in LBT the women that "try" to be strong are b*******, but the women that aren't strong they completely are submissive and have everyone step all over them.
Who are the women trying to be strong who come across as b******?
You named Ruby and Petrie's Mom as characters who will not take anyone's crab and personally I don't see either of them comes across in such a way. Then there is Ducky's Mum who is kind while she can but also tells of Cera's father and can also give some frowns on other occasions though the talking is usually limited (which I suppose to be more on economic reasons (voice actor's must be paid)).
Littlefoot's grandma also has her tougher moments. She tells of the quarreling grownups in LBT 3 and Littlefoot's grandpa too. Same as Ducky's mum she to doesn't nod and smile all the time when she happens not to be talking.
Sue is a strong female too, but I don't see her as comming across as a b*****. Though in case of her (as well as Tria) one can argue that she is serving the clichee of female looking for a stronger male.
There is Cera of course (yet another strong female), but would you really go so far as to call her a b***** for her attitudes?


Amaranthine

  • Member+
  • Littlefoot
  • *
    • Posts: 7354
  • Can You Love Me Despite The Cracks?
    • View Profile
Quote from: Malte279,Apr 18 2010 on  08:39 AM
Quote
There is Cera of course (yet another strong female), but would you really go so far as to call her a b***** for her attitudes?

 
Yup. The reason is, she REPEATS her actions in very single sequel. She calls Little Foot's mom stupid, so blows Petrie out of her way in the fourth sequel, she torments Petrie going, "You can say that again", when he moans it's his fault that Ducky is gone. She acts like a complete know it all.

If she wasn't in every sequel and didn't act like this in every sequel, I could tolerate her, but she acts like a Biotch in EVERY sequel. :p To me, she's not a strong character, it's bad character development on the creator's part. Cera learns a lesson only to be cruel to her friends again. >_>

I really don't see Ducky's mom as being strong at all. She's just...a mom. :p She's just very frantic....

Petrie's mom in LBT 7 wouldn't take any of Mr. Three Horn's crap when he says, "Oh not that nonsense again!" To her when she tells Little Foot to tell what else he saw about the comet. She responds, "Whether or not I believe there is such thing as a stone of cold fire, that is where they will go, am I right?"

I admit her personality is not always consistant, but heck, it's better then  nothing!

Ruby IS NOT  a dumb female stereotype, she tells the bullies to go away from Ducky from bothering her, she protects Chomper, she gives her experience and side of the story of how she was seperated from her family.

My two cents at least. I feel I need to make a vid response to this, because it seems I'm not making myself heard clearly...:p




Cancerian Tiger

  • Member+
  • Littlefoot
  • *
    • Posts: 6961
    • View Profile
Okay, I'm gonna be as calm as I can possibly muster up right now <_<.  

What I have just read here has totally pissed me off.  So, Cera should be so sweet you'd need an insulin shot every thirty seconds just to even be considered a "strong" character?  Gimme a break :bang!

Since I'm so similar to this character and identify with this character, I guess this means I'm a *censored* too.  Well, I may be one, but I'm not ashamed to admit it AND I'm actually proud of it!  I got so sick of folks being mean to me when I was a relatively passive kid that I finally grew a pair and started standing up for myself.  I'm not afraid to be a strong female and stick up for my hide, and I really think there should be more females like Cera in the world.


Malte279

  • The Circle
  • The Gang of Five
  • *
    • Posts: 15608
    • View Profile
    • http://www.ineinemlandvorunsererzeit.de.vu
Keep in mind that this is about discussing opinions and that nobody wants to personally attack anyone. :boohoo
As for me, I think that your judgment is a rather harsh one Amy as it passes a very strong verdict (so strong in fact that the term is not even to be spelled out here) on Cera on the basis of a number of mean attitudes on the part of Cera, but it also completely ignores all of the positive actions of hers and ignores the circumstances. Given her dad I suppose the main alternative for Cera to become a shy sneak who always tries to please was to become the hard shelled tomboy that she is and not all of her kind (kind referring to personality rather than species here) would maintain her soft core which we also see on many occasions in spite of Cera's strong efforts to hide it. I think the Gang of LBT would loose a bit of its spice if it wasn't for Cera's occasional attitudes. I do see your point though about her sometimes going over the top. Sometimes she really could show a bit more sensitivity.
In any case I do not think that the overall claim of land before time stereotyping strong women as b****** can hardly be uphold if we have but one single character whom youself would classify as matching that stereotype.
Quote
I really don't see Ducky's mom as being strong at all. She's just...a mom. :p She's just very frantic....
She is not looking for quarrels and she is very concerned about others (kids in particular) which are qualities which sound similar to those qualities you would like Cera to have to a higher degree, but does that make her not strong? While we don't always know what she is saying we do see her participate in the quarrels in LBT 3. We see her stand up to the sharpteeth along with the other grownups in LBT 2 (is that less of a sign of strength because she does it as a concerned mother?). There are occasions where she could be more aggressive (e.g. the dead duckbill scene in LBT 5 where she sets her arms akimbo, frowns, and does a Marge Simpson kind of sound, but is not shown to respond to Mr. Threehorns insulting remark about duckbills. But does that make her a weak character? Do female LBT characters have to be divided into either weak or strong anyway? Isn't there a whole scala of in betweens rather than two monolitic blocks of either strong and weak and either b**** or not b****?


DarkHououmon

  • Member+
  • Littlefoot
  • *
    • Posts: 7203
    • View Profile
    • http://bluedramon.deviantart.com
I personally don't think Cera is that bad of a character. Sure she started off as pretty nasty in the first movie (then again this is based on the fact that she was still under heavy influence from her father) and sure she doesn't act always like an angel in the later movies (then again she has shown her softer side several times). But she has gone through a lot of improvement and has become sweeter of a character, yet still retaining her toughness. In the 11th movie, Cera had actually helped resolve a crisis (between Tria and Mr. Threehorn) as as well as help Ducky, Petrie, and Spike when they were feeling guilty with the way they treated Littlefoot. In an episode of the TV series, Cera has finally exposed her lie about threehorns not having dreams by telling the others that she had nightmares about Hidden Runner.

Given this and other positive aspects of Cera into account, I cannot agree with your harsh judgment that Cera is a *bleep*, Rat_Lady.


Amaranthine

  • Member+
  • Littlefoot
  • *
    • Posts: 7354
  • Can You Love Me Despite The Cracks?
    • View Profile
I don't feel I need to repent or apologize for my opinion about Cera. However, I find it funny that I always had this opinion and said it more then once, yet no one commented on it. It wasn't until I posted here used the words I used that I started getting responses. So what, I have to be harsh in my words to get you guys to respond? I just find that a bit screwy myself. :p

However, I will apologize to anyone I have hurt while reading my opinion.

Anna, you are one of my best friends in the whole world, and I absolutely WAS NOT thinking of you being a bitch when I wrote that. You see Cera being like you, but I personally don't see the similarities because I see Cera differently then you do.

Again, if Cera wasn't in every movie and did not had the same attitude in every sequel, I could tolerate her, but no, I just can't. She flipping annoys me and I don't see her as a strong character at all, if she really was a strong character, she would admit her fears and not treat her friends in such a harsh way. I love strong characters, but to me, Cera just isn't one of them.




Pangaea

  • Member+
  • Cera
  • *
    • Posts: 4434
  • Contemplator of Deep Time
    • View Profile
*Knowing that this is a potentially touchy subject, allow me to apologize in advance if I inadvertently offend anyone with anything I say here. (In the event that I do upset someone, I will, of course, apologize afterwards as well.)*

One question I have is, what makes a strong female character? Does it take more than to simply be a female who doesn’t let others (especially males) push her around, or fit stereotypes associated with females? Sorry if this is going off topic (maybe I should start a new thread :unsure:), but I have always had a very difficult time coming up with female characters for the stories I write (granted, all of my OCs are animals of one kind or another), because I’m not sure how to design a character who is feminine, but not a female stereotype. In my efforts to avoid using stereotypical females in my works, pretty much all the female characters I create end up with personalities and behavior that would work equally well for male characters. Is that the right way to go? I can’t help but suspect that it is not.

At any rate, I personally think Cera definitely qualifies as a strong female character. As far as I’m concerned, being likeable isn’t a requirement for a character to be considered “strong”, and while others might not agree with me, I for one don’t think Cera’s so bad.



Pronounced "pan-JEE-uh". Spelled with three A's. Represented by a Lystrosaurus.


Serris

  • General of the Great Valley
  • Member+
  • The Gang of Five
  • *
    • Posts: 11356
  • The cyberpunk Deinonychus
    • View Profile
Cera qualifies as strong. She doesn't take crap from anyone. Yeah, she is a bit blunt and opinionated but generally, people who don't take crap tend to have a little of those traits.

---------------------------

Also, I have the same problem as Pangaea.

All of my female characters could work just as well if their genders were swapped. Granted, in Darwin's Soldiers it may be justified. Admittedly,Ms. Swimmer from Twilight Valley and Insane Cafe is the sole exception but turning her into "Mr. Swimmer" is very easy.

Poster of the GOF's 200,000th post

Please read and rate: Land Before Time: Twilight Valley - The GOF's original LBT war story.


Noname

  • The Gang of Five
  • *
    • Posts: 13211
    • View Profile
    • http://z6.invisionfree.com/Fantasy_RP_Board/index.php?act=idx
As the one who started this thread so long ago, I'll just say my piece.

"Female" does not automatically imply "weak", although in many societies throughout history, it has. I am not saying that it is right or wrong to portray females like that; in fact, the leading female of the series (Cera) is by no means weak. What female automatically means is that it is the sex of a species who has the capacity to produce young from her body, once a male fertilizes her egg cell(s.) For mammals, this also means the ability to feed young with milk from her body. Anything else that is implied is rather controversial, including the behaviors and traits which we associate with male and female, such as "strong" and "weak", "active" and "passive", or even "rational" and "irrational", all of which are loaded topics. (and yes, a few species have the ability to use parthenogenesis, but that is highly atypical for terrestrial vertebrates.)

Still, there are some behaviors that have nothing to do with strength or weakness that could be used to differentiate between male and female characters. Among humans, it is women who are generally more concerned about appearances, men who are more concerned about utility (compare shoes for men and women, for example.) Culturally, men are expected to be more forward, women to be more "tacit", even though this can lead to odd or even comical effects (men being too blunt, women hinting at something despite the fact that the guy won't get it.)

The tricky part comes when we are dealing with non-human characters. If we wanted to be realistic, there is no way to know how dinosaurs approached gender relations, or if it would differ from species to species. Since this forum deals with cartoon dinosaurs, we find ourselves looking at characters in dinosaur bodies that have human traits. It would not necessarily be right to project human gender relations into dinosaurs, particularly because the factors that enable human gender relations are not necessarily present in dinosaurs. One element is size differences. Among humans, men and women are typically different in size and strength from a biological point of view, but in some animals, these differences are very small, or even reversed in favor of the female. This would doubtlessly have an impact on the way the genders would relate.

If there is one near-constant among terrestrial vertebrates, it is that the females are the ones who are the primary carer for the children; even more so for mammals, whose young are literally sustained by the mother's milk. Because of this, it was long assumed that the males would be the "protector" among humans in many cultures, and still is to varying degrees. Institutions such as the army, police, and laws simply did not exist in nature, where one's survival is a function of one's own strengths and the strengths of one's herd or pack, if any. It is considerably more brutal than a society we know, even if it is in this modern society that we can be "nice enough" to provide protection to those less able to defend themselves, such as the poor, the sick, pregnant mothers, etc.

Now, none of this means that there is any "iron rule" that people have to obey while making fan-fictions in regards to gender relations among the Land Before Time Dinosaurs. One could argue that in the relative security and plenty of the valley, there is enough room for something other than strength to dominate. Of course, as I previously stated, there could be some species of dinosaur in which the female is stronger than the male, but that is more of a biology discussion than anything else.

In short, there is no reason to make a character conform to a stereotype of gender if you don't want them to.

P.S. "Strong" does not mean B!+*#. History is full of strong women who had a good attitude, like Rosa Parks, or Hellen Keller.