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Ducky's abduction in LBT 7

Ducky123

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Malte wrote something about the abduction of Ducky in LBT 7 that I really disagree with so here's the question to everyone, what are your thoughts on this?

I'll copy Malte's post and the relevant part of my response into this post so you guys have an idea where to start...


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[...] serious plotholes (why exactly did they abduct Ducky to begin with? They had absolutely no reason whatsoever to do that. Had Pterano announced to the assembled adults in the valley that he was going for the stone of cold fire to rule them all he probably would have earned himself a collective shrug and an "be off already" from Cera's father. Abducting Ducky was really the one way to ensure that he would be pursued eventually) are aspects that kept a movie with some really great ideas (e.g. Pterano's past) from being great altogether in my opinion. ]
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I agree that there are many obvious plotholes in some sequels but the one you point out really isn't a plothole... Nobody knew if the Stone had the powers it was predicted to have but I'm sure the grown-ups wouldn't just let Pterano gain that possible power. Even if it's just non-sense (as it turned out later on), could they risk that Pterano might gain huge power in the event that their doubts turn out to be false? And even if the grown-ups didn't think that way, I'm sure Pterano wouldn't want them to know what he's up to. After all, he claims that he would like to prove the righteousness of his actions and be accepted in the Valley again. Now setting off towards the Stone of Cold Fire is one of the most suspicious things Pterano could have done so it would be better if the grown-ups didn't know of his journey alltogether! But then Ducky comes along, hearing information that would make the grown-ups VERY suspicious. It was only logical that they had to prevent her from passing on that very information to the grown-ups... only the way they did that was anything but helping. They should have knocked her unconscious or tied her beak together so she couldn't alert the Valley. Nobody would have known what happened to Ducky or where she is...
I doubt Mr. Threehorn would just shrug when Pterano showed up to tell him THAT! I'm not sure but I don't think Pterano would be tolerated in the Valley whatsoever. At the point of the kidnapping, Pterano was believing that none of the grown-ups (aside from Mrs. Flyer) knew of his presence to begin with...
Pterano did have valid reasons to order the abduction of Ducky so it's not a plothole!
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jorrdy12

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Quote from: Ducky123,May 31 2016 on  11:19 AM
Malte wrote something about the abduction of Ducky in LBT 7 that I really disagree with so here's the question to everyone, what are your thoughts on this?

I'll copy Malte's post and the relevant part of my response into this post so you guys have an idea where to start...


Quote
[...] serious plotholes (why exactly did they abduct Ducky to begin with? They had absolutely no reason whatsoever to do that. Had Pterano announced to the assembled adults in the valley that he was going for the stone of cold fire to rule them all he probably would have earned himself a collective shrug and an "be off already" from Cera's father. Abducting Ducky was really the one way to ensure that he would be pursued eventually) are aspects that kept a movie with some really great ideas (e.g. Pterano's past) from being great altogether in my opinion. ]
Quote
I agree that there are many obvious plotholes in some sequels but the one you point out really isn't a plothole... Nobody knew if the Stone had the powers it was predicted to have but I'm sure the grown-ups wouldn't just let Pterano gain that possible power. Even if it's just non-sense (as it turned out later on), could they risk that Pterano might gain huge power in the event that their doubts turn out to be false? And even if the grown-ups didn't think that way, I'm sure Pterano wouldn't want them to know what he's up to. After all, he claims that he would like to prove the righteousness of his actions and be accepted in the Valley again. Now setting off towards the Stone of Cold Fire is one of the most suspicious things Pterano could have done so it would be better if the grown-ups didn't know of his journey alltogether! But then Ducky comes along, hearing information that would make the grown-ups VERY suspicious. It was only logical that they had to prevent her from passing on that very information to the grown-ups... only the way they did that was anything but helping. They should have knocked her unconscious or tied her beak together so she couldn't alert the Valley. Nobody would have known what happened to Ducky or where she is...
I doubt Mr. Threehorn would just shrug when Pterano showed up to tell him THAT! I'm not sure but I don't think Pterano would be tolerated in the Valley whatsoever. At the point of the kidnapping, Pterano was believing that none of the grown-ups (aside from Mrs. Flyer) knew of his presence to begin with...
Pterano did have valid reasons to order the abduction of Ducky so it's not a plothole!
Yes, there's indeed a reason to abduct ducky, because his plan would have failed if Ducky mentioned it to her friends, who inturn were probably going to mention it to their parents and they would shoo him away or banish him again. so no plotholes
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rhombus

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I have to agree with you, Ducky, on the rationale for them kidnapping Ducky. (wow, that is an odd sentence in retrospect :p ) Though I think that they still overestimated the valley's belief in the Stone of Cold Fire and their probable reaction to finding out that Pterano was seeking it out.  As even if the valley would have reacted massively to finding out he was seeking out the Stone of Cold Fire, I still think their actions were unwarranted.  After all, his trio is made up of flyers and would have a major advantage over the land-dwellers, and if they left immediately during the night then they would have had an advantage over the other flyers of the valley who might have given chase.  

To me the entire incident is indicative of Pterano's combination of high charisma and poor judgement, which is what led those who followed him to their doom in the first place.  So I wouldn't consider it a plothole insomuch as it is indicative of the flaws in Pterano's character traits.


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Malte279

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Keep in mind that prior to the abduction of Ducky there had already been a meeting of the grownups in which they all agreed that there wasn't such a thing as a stone of cold fire. They were very clear about not believing that the stone was real which caused the Rainbow Faces to question them for it without any sign whatsoever that they had changed anybody's mind.
Other than the rainbow faces there is not an adult there who seems to believe Littlefoot and whatever the exact powers of the stone are supposed to be is not very clearly defined (in fact it is a good question why Pterano would think that it would give him power over the others when nothing like that had been suggested by anyone at all).
And even if Ducky had told the others about it, how would that have sabotaged Pterano's plans in any way more than abducting Ducky did?
Had they made sure that nobody was woken up by keeping Ducky silent leaving everyone uncertain about what happened to her, it would have made sense, but the way they proceeded they caused a stampede in the Valley when their point was not to draw any attention!

Given the big point they made of showing that the adults didn't believe in the stone of cold fire I have to maintain my view that the abduction of Ducky is either a plothole or showing that Pterano is kind of stupid (which I don't think matches his character well).


rhombus

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Quote from: Malte279,May 31 2016 on  01:29 PM
Given the big point they made of showing that the adults didn't believe in the stone of cold fire I have to maintain my view that the abduction of Ducky is either a plothole or showing that Pterano is kind of stupid (which I don't think matches his character well).
I see it as being more indicative of Pterano's paranoia than stupidity.  People who have narcissistic personality disorder, or whom are on that spectrum, often overreact to perceived threats to their sense of self or their quests for greatness, even if those slights or threats are exaggerated or not real.  The fact that he is being 'served' by two sociopathic characters only would worsen this, akin to a folie ‡ deux situation, with the participants paranoid delusions and other unsavory traits playing off of one another.  This was hinted at in that when he finally turned on his partners (or rather, when they turned on him) his personality took a noticeable shift.


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StardustSoldier

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(merged this into my review below)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2019, 09:50:38 PM by StardustSoldier »




StardustSoldier

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I kinda agree with both sides of the argument to an extent. I don't think there was any good reason for Pterano and his goons to abduct Ducky, because I really don't think any of the adults would have cared all that much about their quest for the Stone. At most some of them might've been mildly concerned, but I don't think they would've done anything otherwise. Whereas abducting Ducky was a surefire way to get everyone on their tail, as Malte pointed out. On the other hand, I can see it from the perspective of Pterano being excessively paranoid, and/or making a rash split-second decision the moment they discovered that Ducky had overheard what was supposed to be a secret plan.

Anyway, I watched the film for the first time a few days ago. Most of the previous LBT films I'd seen before as a kid, but I think Secret of Saurus Rock was the last one. Thus, it'll be uncharted territory from here on out. I did remember a small part of the song "Good Inside", particularly Cera singing, "Everybody's got a little dark side to 'em," but that was just from a commercial for the film and not the film itself.

Hmm... I'm not really sure what to make of this one. Like with The Great Valley Adventure, I have conflicted feelings. But unlike with TGVA, here I can't really put my finger on why. There were general aspects I liked. Having aliens in Land Before Time is pretty bizarre, but a really cool concept at the same time. I also enjoyed Pterano's surprisingly dark backstory. And, related to that, how they addressed what it was like for the grown-ups' journey after they were split up from their kids... although come to think of it I wish they had gone into more detail about that.

I liked the general concept of a mysterious Stone of Cold Fire coming down from the sky. But overall, there were aspects of the plot that felt kinda sloppy in places. I don't know how to describe it; parts of the film just felt a bit off.

Not sure what I'd rate this one out of 10. I feel like I'd have to see it a second time to form a more concrete opinion.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2019, 09:57:56 PM by StardustSoldier »




StardustSoldier

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Rewatched the film today so I could try and better articulate my thoughts. I can definitely say I enjoyed it more the second time around. Initially I ranked it below Saurus Rock, whereas now I'd probably put it above (but still below Big Freeze, and I'm undecided on where Great Valley Adventure would go right now). Similar to how I initially put Mysterious Island below Mists, but then I swapped their positions when I rewatched those.

I've grown to appreciate Rinkus and Sierra, and especially Pterano, for being unique villains. Every film after this just used Sharpteeth as the bad guys. You could see the problem starting to emerge with Saurus Rock, but Big Freeze is where the trend really began. Films 1, 2, & 5 were really the only ones to get Sharpteeth right, imo (although I thought the Sharptooth quartet in #13 had potential). Here, however, they went for a different approach with the villains and it worked out well. The flashback to Pterano's herd is also a genuinely chilling moment.

Other assorted thoughts:
This is the first film with the new digital art style. It looks crisper and cleaner and smoother than the previous sequels, but the more traditional style has a charm of its own. Undecided on whether I prefer the style/look of 2-6 or 7-14, although the original still looks the best of them all.

It's interesting that, instead of the usual narrator, this time around it's Petrie who does the opening narration. I think this is the only time something like that ever happens in the series. (Update: Actually, I looked it up. Saurus Rock is the sole other exception, being narrated by Grandpa.)

Early on when the dinosaurs are discussing the Stone of Cold Fire, Topps says to one of the others, "There's no reason to get all huffy." Yeah, Topps of all dinos is the one saying that. ::)

More irony: Pterano berates Rinkus for the idea of threatening the young ones and putting the elders on alert. Then soon after they abduct Ducky. :rolleyes Speaking of which, as discussed above, I found that part to be a bit nonsensical. It just seemed like a boneheaded thing for them to do if they were trying to keep the other adults off their back. It didn't really seem necessary from a narrative standpoint either, since Ducky soon escapes from them anyway and rejoins her friends.

And speaking of that, why do the other adults spend so much time arguing about what to do? What is there to argue about? Just go rescue Ducky already! :idea On the other hand, I do like that Mr. Threehorn gets called out for his belligerence. :p

But once the adventure gets going, then it's a lot of fun. I noticed that, when the Gang meets up with the Rainbow Faces inside Threehorn Peak, there's a brief reprise of the music where Littlefoot imitates Doc, one of my favourite cues in the series. There's also a cute moment near the end when Mama Flyer catches up with them and she hugs Petrie, then hugs Ducky as well.

Lastly, one other nitpick I have is that, while I still enjoyed the Rainbow Faces, I kinda wish that all of the Gang could have seen that they were aliens, not just Littlefoot. That bugged me for some reason. :!

Overall, I give this film a 7/10.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2019, 08:44:58 AM by StardustSoldier »




Stephenram

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What was the reason for only Littlefoot seeing that they were aliens? There had to be a reason, right?


OwlsCantRead

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What was the reason for only Littlefoot seeing that they were aliens? There had to be a reason, right?
Objectively, it book-ends the film. He was the only one to see the meteorite to begin with. :lol

And personally, it wraps the film up rather nicely. If the rest of the Gang had seen it, the scene would not have wrapped up as neatly as it did. With just Littlefoot, we can accept his deflective "that would be telling, there's so much unknown", which is something which would have been shot down by a dismissive Cera and a curious Ducky had they seen it. It's better to end it ambiguously rather than leave it as an open-ended in-universe question (there's no way the Gang will know the answer to this, after all)
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StardustSoldier

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That's a good point regarding the book-ends, that Littlefoot was the only one to see the meteorite. I didn't think of that before. Although I still think it would've been nice to see the rest of the Gang's reaction to the aliens. Hmm, do I smell a potential future fanfic idea?




Gentle Sharptooth

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Abducting Ducky was frankly the second choice Pterano could have made. He could have had her put in a cave or somewhere hidden and made all due haste for the Stone of Cold Fire. However, thay would have made for a shorter film. Although having the rest of Gang break Ducky out of some kind of rocky prision might have been a fun little bit.  :rainbowwave

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RainbowFaceProtege

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I agree that Ducky's abduction isn't a plot hole. Yes, Pterano and his henchmen overestimated the valley's reaction to the stone, but how were they supposed to know what the valley dinosaurs would think? They only arrived in the valley just a day or two ago. Pterano was present at the meeting where the Rainbow Faces showed up, but I don't think that meeting was representative of the whole valley. A good-sized portion of the crowd in that scene appears to be the "farwalker" dinosaur species shown entering the valley at the beginning of the movie, making it seem that most of the dinosaurs there weren't from the valley at all (which would make sense, considering that Ducky's mom said their "guests" were the ones who were "a little upset" over the flying rock). Pterano therefore had no way of knowing how the valley dinosaurs would react to him going after the stone, so--better safe than sorry--he decided to take Ducky with him to stop her from telling. Sure, there were more sensible things he could have done to stop her from telling, but Pterano was hardly a character with good judgement, as others have mentioned.

Abducting Ducky was frankly the second choice Pterano could have made. He could have had her put in a cave or somewhere hidden and made all due haste for the Stone of Cold Fire. However, thay would have made for a shorter film. Although having the rest of Gang break Ducky out of some kind of rocky prision might have been a fun little bit.  :rainbowwave

I like that idea, Gentle Sharptooth. It wouldn't have had to mean a shorter film, either--after Ducky was freed from wherever the flyers had trapped her, she could have told her friends where the flyers went, and then they would have gone after them.




Gentle Sharptooth

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I agree that Ducky's abduction isn't a plot hole. Yes, Pterano and his henchmen overestimated the valley's reaction to the stone, but how were they supposed to know what the valley dinosaurs would think? They only arrived in the valley just a day or two ago. Pterano was present at the meeting where the Rainbow Faces showed up, but I don't think that meeting was representative of the whole valley. A good-sized portion of the crowd in that scene appears to be the "farwalker" dinosaur species shown entering the valley at the beginning of the movie, making it seem that most of the dinosaurs there weren't from the valley at all (which would make sense, considering that Ducky's mom said their "guests" were the ones who were "a little upset" over the flying rock). Pterano therefore had no way of knowing how the valley dinosaurs would react to him going after the stone, so--better safe than sorry--he decided to take Ducky with him to stop her from telling. Sure, there were more sensible things he could have done to stop her from telling, but Pterano was hardly a character with good judgement, as others have mentioned.

Abducting Ducky was frankly the second choice Pterano could have made. He could have had her put in a cave or somewhere hidden and made all due haste for the Stone of Cold Fire. However, thay would have made for a shorter film. Although having the rest of Gang break Ducky out of some kind of rocky prision might have been a fun little bit.  :rainbowwave

I like that idea, Gentle Sharptooth. It wouldn't have had to mean a shorter film, either--after Ducky was freed from wherever the flyers had trapped her, she could have told her friends where the flyers went, and then they would have gone after them.

So then it would have been Ocean’s Five. :lol

To a point earlier, I don’t think the Gang woukd have told the parents about Ducky’s abduction,  they tend to leave the parents out of it and go to resolve everything themselves.

“The Past is Gone..” -Dream On, Aerosmith


RainbowFaceProtege

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I agree that Ducky's abduction isn't a plot hole. Yes, Pterano and his henchmen overestimated the valley's reaction to the stone, but how were they supposed to know what the valley dinosaurs would think? They only arrived in the valley just a day or two ago. Pterano was present at the meeting where the Rainbow Faces showed up, but I don't think that meeting was representative of the whole valley. A good-sized portion of the crowd in that scene appears to be the "farwalker" dinosaur species shown entering the valley at the beginning of the movie, making it seem that most of the dinosaurs there weren't from the valley at all (which would make sense, considering that Ducky's mom said their "guests" were the ones who were "a little upset" over the flying rock). Pterano therefore had no way of knowing how the valley dinosaurs would react to him going after the stone, so--better safe than sorry--he decided to take Ducky with him to stop her from telling. Sure, there were more sensible things he could have done to stop her from telling, but Pterano was hardly a character with good judgement, as others have mentioned.

Abducting Ducky was frankly the second choice Pterano could have made. He could have had her put in a cave or somewhere hidden and made all due haste for the Stone of Cold Fire. However, thay would have made for a shorter film. Although having the rest of Gang break Ducky out of some kind of rocky prision might have been a fun little bit.  :rainbowwave

I like that idea, Gentle Sharptooth. It wouldn't have had to mean a shorter film, either--after Ducky was freed from wherever the flyers had trapped her, she could have told her friends where the flyers went, and then they would have gone after them.

So then it would have been Ocean’s Five. :lol

To a point earlier, I don’t think the Gang woukd have told the parents about Ducky’s abduction,  they tend to leave the parents out of it and go to resolve everything themselves.

True, but Pterano doesn't have the benefit of knowing the LBT tropes like we do. :lol