The Gang of Five
The Land Before Time => General Land Before Time => Topic started by: WeirdRaptor on January 08, 2017, 02:13:53 PM
-
On whim, I've been marathoning the series as background noise while I work on balancing the budget for the bistro (News Years, upcoming tax season, and all that), and I had a sudden realization about "Land Before Time 3". Now, the film has always been one of the weaker entries in my opinion, but I never really thought about why much. Well, I have always found the Guest Characters of Week (Hyp, Mutt, and Nod) neither memorable or interesting. They're pretty typical bully characters, the kind you see in EVERYTHING (especially if you read a lot of Stephen King like I do). Sure, they graft on a "kids emulate their parents, and if you're a big meany-pants, your kid probably will be, too" at the last minute, but...
Don't Daddy Tops and Cera already have that covered? Yet it rarely ever gets the attention I think it warrants (outside of the original 1988 film, anyway). LBT3 could actually have been an opportunity to explore in-depth the many underlying issues of Cera's father being the resident backwards thinking racist and the effect that has on her.
Ultimately, I feel that Hyp and his posse are redundant and only serve to eat up running time. Between the crisis of the Great Valley drying up and everything with Cera and her father essentially mirroring what we learn about Hyp, anyway... yeah. I always, always thought the bits concerning the Triceratops family were by the most interesting part of the film, and on this recent rewatch, I think the series should have foregone on its quest character gimmick and just focused on the reoccurring crowd this time.
Any thoughts?
-
I agree with you 100%. LBT3 has always been one of my least favourite entries in the series mostly because of two reasons: firstly I find it kinda lacking on any real adventures. Could be just my memory failing on me, but doesn't the gang stay inside the Valley the whole time? And secondly I didn't like the trio of bullies invented for this sequel at all. If one of the main characters and their family issues were the center of attention I think the film would've benefitted greatly from it.
-
Yeah I also agree the third movie was horrible and not enjoyable at all. The bullies where the worst part of the movie. They added no point to the story. And the plot was boring and very slow paced. And yes they only stayed in the great valley mostly. The only cool thing in the movie where those raptors at the end where they where in the Mysterious Beyond. Other than that there was nothing salvageable about the movie.
-
Agreed. I just hate Hyp. He his gang were one of the main reason the third film is one of my least favorites. Aside from being annoying, the lesson his character was trying to bring forth was, as you said, addressed in the first film. The film's plot was quite underwhelming throughout but the bullies ruined it. It's probably my least favorite film after 11 and 13.
-
Yeah, I do think now I'm older that LBT 3 is the weakest out of the Roy Alan Smith era sequel's.. In my old age I have grown to dislike the songs when your big and standing tough, . Not to mention the fact this is the film that started by hate for Topsy... For any new members reading this , while I am one of those who actually likes Cera and thinks she misunderstood and not all that bad....... I hate her dad with a passion....
-
Cera comes off as a bully as well one reason she's my least favorite characters in the series. She acts all though but in the end she just comes off sounding like a bully most of the time. The songs in movie three where mediocre at best. When your big is the worst and Standing Tough was actually not that bad of a song In my opinion. The plot was awful it was finding away to move a rock so water can come back to the valley that's it.
-
I think that since the original Land Before Time movie Cera was supposed to be the hot-headed girl locked in constant battle against her own pride and prejudice, but as the new titles were made, the writers for the most part gave up on developing the main characters. Which is understandable, given the target audience, I guess, but it's also one of the main reasons why the series grew stale and became more and more childish with each new film. If they went a different route Universal probably wouldn't be able to spawn so many sequels, but the more serious tone might've also resulted in a whole other kind of experience for the viewers.
-
I don't think they would have had to forgo on making so many sequels if the filmmakers were more serious about developing the main characters and taking it new places. Each entry in the series is the length of three animated tv show episodes done with roughly the same quality of animation. They could probably have punched out a sequel a year with more intelligent writing. After all, having a weekly schedule to keep up with never stopped Greg Weisman and company while they were making Gargoyles.
-
LBT 3 is one of the stronger sequels in my book, actually.
I found the lesson of the movie to be very well executed and Hyp's gang were funny. Not a real threat for the Gang but scary and threatening enough to count as villains of sorts. There is nothing oh so godawful about the movie if you ask me (though I would be more than surprised to read something positive about any sequel from ADFan... oh well :rolleyes :lol: )
Well, I have always found the Guest Characters of Week (Hyp, Mutt, and Nod) neither memorable or interesting. They're pretty typical bully characters, the kind you see in EVERYTHING (especially if you read a lot of Stephen King like I do). Sure, they graft on a "kids emulate their parents, and if you're a big meany-pants, your kid probably will be, too" at the last minute, but...Don't Daddy Tops and Cera already have that covered? Yet it rarely ever gets the attention I think it warrants (outside of the original 1988 film, anyway). LBT3 could actually have been an opportunity to explore in-depth the many underlying issues of Cera's father being the resident backwards thinking racist and the effect that has on her.
I believe Cera's father learned how not to act in front of his daughter through the negative example of Hyp and his father. Yes, they are pretty generic bully characters but why are they so bad in your opinion? Or, how should they have been like to be "interesting" in your book?
but doesn't the gang stay inside the Valley the whole time?
Don't want to spoil you there, but they "only" go into the Mysterious Beyond to fight some Fastbiters with rocks and break a hole into the dam holding back the water supply of the Valley and therefore save the Valley from the fire ^^spike
Agreed. I just hate Hyp. He his gang were one of the main reason the third film is one of my least favorites. Aside from being annoying, the lesson his character was trying to bring forth was, as you said, addressed in the first film. The film's plot was quite underwhelming throughout but the bullies ruined it. It's probably my least favorite film after 11 and 13.
Wait, LBT 3 is about "sharing" as far as I'm concerned, with the sub-lessons of working together (well, that one was part of the original's lesson) and not yelling at your children (shoutout to all parents watching the show, maybe? :lol ). The only real part in the original about sharing was removed :neutral
-
Still to me the third may have problems but I did like the fact it's about sharing at the end. It wasn't always about that in the beginning at all. It was a forced in lesson at the end of the movie. So it doesn't really count in my opinion to be honest.
-
Don't want to spoil you there, but they "only" go into the Mysterious Beyond to fight some Fastbiters with rocks and break a hole into the dam holding back the water supply of the Valley and therefore save the Valley from the fire ^^spike
Right. Well, like I said, I barely ever rewatch LBT3, so... :lol: Still. I remember it being kind of a snoozefest.
-
True I remember always remember turning it off if I saw it on tv. So I'm with you there coyote
-
LBT 3 is one of the stronger sequels in my book, actually.
I found the lesson of the movie to be very well executed and Hyp's gang were funny. Not a real threat for the Gang but scary and threatening enough to count as villains of sorts. There is nothing oh so godawful about the movie if you ask me (though I would be more than surprised to read something positive about any sequel from ADFan... oh well :rolleyes :lol: )
Can't agree with you here.
I agree that the lesson was well executed... through Cera and her father. I disagree that it was well executed from Hyp and his pals. I didn't say the film is godawful. I just said that I feel it's one of the weaker ones. The godawful sequels don't start rolling in until ol' Charlie took over for Roy Allen Smith.
I believe Cera's father learned how not to act in front of his daughter through the negative example of Hyp and his father. Yes, they are pretty generic bully characters but why are they so bad in your opinion? Or, how should they have been like to be "interesting" in your book?
I think Cera's father already got his slice of humble pie when he nearly got himself and her killed. And he's the one to actually deliver the lesson to Hyp's dad, showing that he already learned it shortly prior to that point.
I didn't say Hyp and his pals were absolutely terrible characters, but you see so many of this type of character and they fail to stand out among other fictional bullies. At least Cera and her father are established characters we know and the movie could... should have spent more time with.
Wait, LBT 3 is about "sharing" as far as I'm concerned, with the sub-lessons of working together (well, that one was part of the original's lesson) and not yelling at your children (shoutout to all parents watching the show, maybe? :lol ). The only real part in the original about sharing was removed :neutral
Good lessons, but I still feel the execution and delivery were flawed.
-
I've re-watched this movie more times than Land Before Time II: The Great Valley Adventure. The songs in this movie were quite enjoyable for me; particularly Standing Tough.
-
Not me between two and three two I've seen more since I enjoyed it more. It was more entertaining than the third movie by a long shot. The characters where way better and to me the songs where better also.
-
Question to anyone who wants to answer?
Does anyone agree with Daddy Tops being so hard-lined in regulating the remaining, but dwindling water supply? To me, I always found it odd that the film painted him as the bad guy in this regard, because he is ultimately right. Until the river begins flowing again, the remaining water needs to be carefully and tightly regulated. He may have been rough about it, but everything he did in this regard was for the survival of his community.
-
Question to anyone who wants to answer?
Does anyone agree with Daddy Tops being so hard-lined in regulating the remaining, but dwindling water supply? To me, I always found it odd that the film painted him as the bad guy in this regard, because he is ultimately right. Until the river begins flowing again, the remaining water needs to be carefully and tightly regulated. He may have been rough about it, but everything he did in this regard was for the survival of his community.
I generally agree with his reasoning on water rationing in this film. As I generally use the prism of utilitarianism to judge the morality of an act, the strict rationing of water until the crisis is resolved was a more reasonable stance than a more lax policy. Though, of course, the film puts him in the least flattering light possible.
Though this does bring up something that I see quite often in American films and television series (especially from the 1980s and 1990s): the idea that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" reasoning is inherently wrong or that characters who use this reasoning are in some way evil or have ulterior motives. It is indeed possible that such reasoning can be used to justify questionable acts if the "needs of the many" is used as a thought-stopping cliche and that the greatest number is not empirically confirmed to actually be at stake. However, such utilitarian reasoning is absolutely necessary in times of crisis to prevent a situation where short-sided altruism for a few can lead to mass suffering for the many - such as in epidemics, resource shortages, and war. - where rationing, quarantines, and other emergency actions may be required. I wonder how much of this revulsion to utilitarian reasoning is due to the somewhat utopian thinking by the writers in Hollywood. In this context, though I find it unfortunate that it did so, I do not see the film painting him as the bad guy as being all that unexpected.
-
Does anyone agree with Daddy Tops being so hard-lined in regulating the remaining, but dwindling water supply?
For me it seems like the classic case of just instantly seizing an opportunity to seize power and boss people... Well, dinos around. Following alongside the river bank and figuring out where'd the water go was the right solution and it took someone unbiased - i.e. in the kids - to do that. All Tops did was create another conflict that kept everyone busy and prevented them from thinking clearly about their situation. His short temper and near-sightedness were a hindrance and nothing more. "No water? Well, too bad - this is how we live now! BTW, I'm in charge cause I say so!" And then if someone would try bringing up a different way of going about the whole thing he'd probably take it as a challenge to his authority. <_<
-
Does anyone agree with Daddy Tops being so hard-lined in regulating the remaining, but dwindling water supply?
For me it seems like the classic case of just instantly seizing an opportunity to seize power and boss people... Well, dinos around. Following alongside the river bank and figuring out where'd the water go was the right solution and it took someone unbiased - i.e. in the kids - to do that. All Tops did was create another conflict that kept everyone busy and prevented them from thinking clearly about their situation. His short temper and near-sightedness were a hindrance and nothing more. "No water? Well, too bad - this is how we live now! BTW, I'm in charge cause I say so!" And then if someone would try bringing up a different way of going about the whole thing he'd probably take it as a challenge to his authority. <_<
I think Topsy was in the right. Regulating the water was the best solution at the time. And yes, sometimes you do need to be tough and rough if it means the survival of everyone. Topsy was probably the most reasonable adult during this crisis, as he was the one taking action to ensure that everyone got something to drink. Yes he was a bit aggressive about it, but considering none of them knew when the water got back, it was a necessary trait.
Sure they could have gone to where the water's origin is and see what was wrong. But that doesn't devalue Topsy's solution. None of the adults even thought about going into the Mysterious Beyond. IT is possible that absolutely none of them thought that the river was plugged up, and their fear of the Mysterious Beyond likely kept them from even trying. I doubt Topsy kept them from trying. It's not like he could stop everyone.
So in the end, I feel Topsy was absolutely right in his way of doing things. It might seem unfair, but when you have a dwindling supply and not knowing when more would come, Topsy's way (tight regulation) is the most logical route to take.
-
Again, I can't agree with that. There are two kinds of leaders: those who actually care for what's best for everyone and try to find real solution to every problem and those who instinctively step in to satisfy their own egos without giving it a second thought and Mr. Threehorn is definitely in the latter category. What the inhabitants of the Valley had to do was gather round, think about their situation, realise they didn't have enough information to solve this puzzle and then send one of the mature flyers to find out the reason of the shortage. None of this could happen though because Topsy's erratic behavior actively discouraged such a course of events from taking place. And this is what the LBT series was always ultimately about: thinking outside the box, seeing the big picture and stepping over one's prejudice and wild nature. So yeah, I'm pretty sure Cera's dad can and should be viewed as a "bad guy" in this situation.
-
Going to address one particular detail here that confuses me.
How do you think Topsy would even go about a ban on flyers going to the Mysterious Beyond? That seems really farfetched for Topsy's character. Topsy does not strike me as someone who would deliberately hinder looking for a solution just to maintain some kind of control.
Not to mention flyers can just...fly away. You could try to say that Topsy kept weaker dinosaurs from looking (I still find this highly unlikely). But it's hard to see him stopping flyers from leaving.
Really, there's not really much I can see supporting the idea of Topsy trying to keep flyers, or anyone, from leaving and checking the source. Bear in mind that he himself also needs to survive in the valley and if there's a constantly dwindling supply of water, and it runs out, well he's screwed as well. So if there was a solution to the problem, Topsy would most likely be ready to fix the problem, not stop it from being fixed.
The only time that Topsy didn't act reasonable in the movie during this crisis is when he doesn't listen to the longnecks on which way was right. But note how he doesn't force anyone to follow him, only Cera. Given this, it is likely that Topsy doesn't really care that much about absolute power. If he did, he would have tried to make everyone follow him, but the moment that the longnecks disagree, he just lets them go. He only cared about Cera doing what he said.
Looking at this, I just find it hard to believe that he would care enough to stop flyers from spotting the problem. He isn't that power-hungry (him letting the valley dinosaurs going their own way hints strongly to this) and even if he did try to put a ban, how easily could he even enforce it? Flyers can just...fly.
I honestly cannot see Topsy being so power drunk that he would endanger even himself just to keep in control. He's bossy, but he's not that bossy.
-
Looking at this, I just find it hard to believe that he would care enough to stop flyers from spotting the problem. He isn't that power-hungry (him letting the valley dinosaurs going their own way hints strongly to this) and even if he did try to put a ban, how easily could he even enforce it? Flyers can just...fly.
Honestly, I think there's a very significant detail missing in this picture. In real life, when faced with a dire situation a lot of people will wait for someone else, preferably a strong leader to stand up and make a decision about how to deal with the present dilemma. And if such is the case with human being, this would be especially true for creatures whose main instrument of survival has always been herd instinct. For the dinosaurs of the Great Valley it's basically an unwritten law to adhere to what the head of their group says and this is why nobody dares to come up with a different plan once Mr. Threehorn stomps his foot and tells everyone what he thinks they're ought to do - they've got their orders and they're supposed to follow them without a second thought, that's what their nature dictates! (This is also why the grownup are always so surprised by their younglings' inability to act in the same manner) Yeah sure, Topsy's line of behavior would've helped him and his offspring survive while they were out in the Mysterious Beyond, but now that they found somewhere to settle in, a place with an actual community in place it does nothing, but create problems for everybody. And this and subsequent LBT movies basically bring this issue up time and again.
-
“Needs of the many” sounds reasonable in such a situation, though I can’t help but think disabled people like me and those with greater needs would be the first to be sacrificed, so I would be among those giving Mr. Threehorn a wary side-eye.
However, I don’t think Mr. Threehorn was doing this for power. There were some small moments like him briefly smiling and raising his head after finishing his “Tough” song that indicate he likes some validation. But I believe he genuinely made the decisions he did in the movie for the good of his daughter and the valley. His experience told him life is tough, so sometimes you have to be tough to survive. Unfortunately, he seems to at times classify under tough surviving “truth talking” that merely verbalizes the prejudices many think about (I roll my eyes so hard). Him putting himself in charge of who can drink the water that’s left instead of this being a team effort (which could track down all the water left and account for everyone’s needs) seems to be a sticking point for many with him.
As for Hyp and his posse, maybe there could have been another way to integrate them into the story. Maybe a situation could come up earlier in the film where the gang and the bullies have no choice but to team up to accomplish a task and that causes them to discover things they like about each other. Hyp and Cera already have a few parallels draws between each other, so why not have them interact more? Oh, the snark-to-snark combat they could have. They could bond over their razor-sharp mischief and the difficult dads they still adore so much. Maybe that would have more fleshed out the theme about parents setting a good example for their kids.
That might have sidelined Littlefoot and his own kinda-thing with Hyp (Where Hyp seems annoyed and then persuaded into helping with Littlefoot’s earnestness) but that still be integrated in. I also wouldn’t mind a bit more bonding between Spike and Mutt that explores why the latter hangs out with Hyp and Nod in the first place (Even disabled people want to be punks!).
-
However, I don’t think Mr. Threehorn was doing this for power.
Problem is he had shown multiple times prior that he thinks every other species living in the Valley are inferior to the Threehorns and that nobody else can get things done, but himself and his kind. So yeah, he may not say it directly, but that IS what he thinks and what he wants his daughter to think as well. They are the Threehorns, they are right and everyone else has to listen to them. Which - given the tribal era mentality - pretty much means he wants to be in charge.
-
Honestly, I think there's a very significant detail missing in this picture. In real life, when faced with a dire situation a lot of people will wait for someone else, preferably a strong leader to stand up and make a decision about how to deal with the present dilemma. And if such is the case with human being, this would be especially true for creatures whose main instrument of survival has always been herd instinct.
The bystander effect, as it has been called, is quite well documented and studied in behavioral science. I once encountered this first hand several years ago when I encountered two people panicking over a woman who had collapsed in the parking lot (she had a stroke) and it wasn't until myself and one of my students intervened and told people to get help that things actually started moving along. Thankfully, the woman's impairment was minor and she recovered in the hospital.
The thing about the effect, however, is that it is short-term generally speaking. It affects how people behave in an immediate crisis situation, but not necessarily in prolonged ones. If a situation is prolonged without resolution then eventually others will attempt new things. For this reason, the idea that Mr. Threenorn's argument for rationing would dissuade anyone from doing anything else or the flyers from even taking a peak at what has stopped the water, has significant problems in my opinion. Another issue is that each herd has its own dominance hierarchies and ways of doing things, most notably the flyers which seem to be much autonomous in many ways, and I doubt the words of one member in a different herd would permanently hold sway. In fact, several of the other valley members were already viably chaffing at Mr. Threehorns strictness on the water restriction in the third film. If the idea of having a flyer find the blockage had occurred to any flyer then they could have made a brief flight with no risk of any reprisal or loss of face.
I am curious about something you said earlier, however. Previously, Coyote, you said this:
Again, I can't agree with that. There are two kinds of leaders: those who actually care for what's best for everyone and try to find real solution to every problem and those who instinctively step in to satisfy their own egos without giving it a second thought and Mr. Threehorn is definitely in the latter category.
To which DarkHououmon made this observation:
The only time that Topsy didn't act reasonable in the movie during this crisis is when he doesn't listen to the longnecks on which way was right. But note how he doesn't force anyone to follow him, only Cera. Given this, it is likely that Topsy doesn't really care that much about absolute power. If he did, he would have tried to make everyone follow him, but the moment that the longnecks disagree, he just lets them go. He only cared about Cera doing what he said.
Do you have any reply to her critique of your position? The world is not black and white and leaders come in more than two groups. Topps certainly is a flawed character with a need to present strength (probably because to do otherwise would be to lose his place in the herd), but I do not see a blind lust for power to be the basis of his character.
-
The only time that Topsy didn't act reasonable in the movie during this crisis is when he doesn't listen to the longnecks on which way was right. But note how he doesn't force anyone to follow him, only Cera. Given this, it is likely that Topsy doesn't really care that much about absolute power. If he did, he would have tried to make everyone follow him, but the moment that the longnecks disagree, he just lets them go. He only cared about Cera doing what he said.
Do you have any reply to her critique of your position?
Actually I do. Sure he "let the Longnecks go", but how much would you be willing to bet Tops would go full rage mode if - say - a flyer volunteered to go on a scout mission into the Mysterious Beyond and asked to drink some water out of turn to recover the strength he needs to fly over the mountains? For my part I think he'd go bonkers since it would strike him not only as putting someone else at risk, but also as an act of rebellion againsts him and his point of view. Powerhungry and contemptuous people always come up with reasons to justify their line of behavior to others AND themselves. In this particular scenario it's pretty clear that Mr. Threehorn's strategy is detrimental to everyone in both the short run (since the shortage won't get fixed if everyone listens to him) and long run (as it goes against the tendency to organise a more civilised community). I just don't feel that Tops telling himself he's doing it for the greater good excuses him any.
The thing about the effect, however, is that it is short-term generally speaking.
For us, humans living in a modern society - yes. But for a group of prehistoric beings taught from birth that they have to keep to their own kind and listen to what the oldest and the wisest of them has to say and follow them without question it's a different story. This might actually be the reason why the grownups in the movies are always portrayed as extremely passive and otherwise doing very little. And that is why some stubborn Threehorn shouting and forcing his opinion on everybody before there's any chance of coming up with a sensible plan is just bad news through and through. :)
-
I'll try to keep my response brief.
Coyote, how would you respond to when I pointed out about how Topsy doesn't make anybody follow him? You seem really determined to believe that Topsy's ultimate goal is to maintain power, and yet you do not address the part of the movie where Topsy just lets everybody go their own way.
Does this sound like a power-hungry tyrant to you? Personally, I feel that, if Topsy did want absolute control, he would have made everyone listen to him no matter what. This isn't what happened.
Take a look at Scar, a villain who actually did want power. He wanted so much to stay in power that he condemned the entire pride to death just to keep power. He is a true case of a power-hungry villain, blinded by the need of absolute control.
Topsy, on the other hand, immediately relinquishes control the moment that the valley residents don't want to follow him. He tightly regulated the water, yes, but only because it was necessary. But since there was a fire, getting out was more important. Had he truly been as power hungry as you say he is, would he not have tried to force everyone to follow him, in the same vein that Scar tried to make everyone stay in the Pridelands even when it was a death sentence?
I would appreciate it if you would address this particular point.
Edit: One more thing I forgot to add in. I'll bring in another point, although this is related to another movie. The fifth one to be precise.
There was a moment in the movie where the herds were working together to find a place to eat. Topsy and Grandpa Longneck come across a skeleton and start to argue on which way to go, both with sound reasons as to why they should go one way or another. Ultimately Topsy is the one who decides what should be done.
What's his solution? Allowing the herds to go their own ways instead of all going the same way. Again, not something I would expect a power hungry individual to do. Topsy doesn't try to force all the herds to go his way. He doesn't try to usurp Grandpa Longneck. He instead decides that the leaders of each individual herd should make their own calls and split up. This seems like a logical solution as it means that at least some of the herds could survive (and even tell the other herds if they are able to).
This is another situation in the movies that just seems to clash in with the whole "Topsy only wants power" thing.
-
Coyote, I think Dark and Rhombus got ya beat on this one. Sorry, but there is nothing to suggest Topsy was power-hungry during LBT3. He was simply keeping an eye on things at the river and making sure no one was over-drinking until the crisis was averted.
As for the adults not sending somebody into the Mysterious Beyond, that was a mistake they all made, not just him. And there is nothing to suggest he tried to put a ban on having fliers go out and take a look.
I'm sorry, but in times of crisis, there needs to be somebody who is willing to take a hardlined approach to things to ensure the survival of the many.
-
Coyote, how would you respond to when I pointed out about how Topsy doesn't make anybody follow him?
But he does. Not in the usual comedic "bring me food, massage my feet and address me as Your Majesty" kind of way, but as a usual domestic tyrant some people have to deal with in real life. That's why instead of looking for a real solution he usually just instantly makes up his mind, makes it known by yelling as loudly as he can and then proceeds to mock or even threaten those who don't listen to him.
Basically his logic in this situation in LBT3 was: no need to further investigate or listen someone else out -> I know what to do and it's all we need -> I'm definitely better than everyone else and therefore I should be in charge. He could only come up with rationing part of the solution which was like only coming up with taking fewer breathes when a bunch of people are stuck in a collapsed cave, but thanks to his extremely prideful nature that was all he deemed necessary and wanted everyone to observe his new rules, i.e. controlling the actions of others. So yeah, he did it for power - the power to control others - and not to help others out even if old Tops wasn't honest enough to admit it to himself. :)
Coyote, I think Dark and Rhombus got ya beat on this one. Sorry, but there is nothing to suggest Topsy was power-hungry during LBT3.
I'm enjoying the discourse anyway. Plus it helps liven up the sequels section of the forums a bit. :lol: And yeah, I'm not trying to paint Tops as - say - a prehistoric version of Scar from the Lion King. Not all frustrated power-hungry people become dictators, but they do tend to try and appoint themselves leaders in situations and communities that don't actually need an "iron fist" guiding them. And then they tend to mismanage the heck out of those... Sounds like Mr. Threehorn alright. :rolleyes:
-
Um, everyone decided on the rationing option. It wasn't just him. You seem to think Topsy has more power than he really does.
True, Mr. Threehorn is that sort, but on the very specific topic of rationing their remaining water until a solution was found, I think he was right. The fault of not finding a solution earlier lies with all the adults, not just him.
-
Topsy is a closed-minded character who can act like a jerk at times. He may have tunnel-vision and refuse to see others' POV. I can agree that he isn't exactly the most friendly of the adults.
However, even with that said, I still don't see him being so stubborn that he would stop attempts at finding a solution just to maintain power. I can see Topsy shooting down the suggesting, but only because he might feel there really is no solution. He might think that the water would come back on its own or something. But that doesn't mean he'd stop people from trying to check it out. He might be skeptical, but he wouldn't go out of his way to prevent anyone from looking.
Also, Topsy is just one dinosaur. Let's say for matter of debate that he is power-hungry. Let's say that he did want to keep control and that was the only reason he took charge. There is one particular problem that presents itself if we look at the situation in this matter:
Topsy would not have control for long.
The drought lasts for a while. I don't know how long, but it was apparently long enough that plants were drying up. And in all of this time, Topsy has managed to regulate the water. This isn't so much because Topsy is in control, but more that all the adults agreed to the rationing. Topsy is merely making sure that everyone drinks only their share of each passing day. The worst he may have done is let threehorns drink longer.
But if he was mandating for power, just how long would it have lasted? If he had truly been hoping for absolute control, then he would have been defeated pretty quickly. He is outnumbered and, even if he got other threehorns of the valley to fight alongside him, they still would not be successful. They might have victory over some residents, but the sheer numbers would get to them eventually. Then there's the two old longnecks, who tower over and could do some serious damage with those tails. Littlefoot's grandparents are not to be trifled with.
So in the end, if Topsy's ultimate plan was to gain power, it would be rather short-lived the moment the residents realize what he's doing. Once Topsy shifted from 'preserving the water' to 'controlling everyone like his pawns', he would have his ass handed to him. Topsy might be stubborn, but he isn't stupid. If he truly wanted power, this is not the way he'd go about it.
But like I have said before, Topsy never once struck me as a power-hungry character. Wanting validation is not the same as wanting power. Wanting people to agree with him is not the same as wanting to control them. I can agree with Topsy being a bit of a jerk at times and easily swayed by his anger, but it's very difficult for me to find any evidence supporting him wanting power, or even having the capability of holding that power.
-
The fact that we can have this kind of discussion about Mr. Threehorn really does show he and Cera just have more meat to their characters than Hyp, his cronies, and his dad.
-
Yes yes they do and they where better characters than Hyp and his farther as well.
-
The fact that we can have this kind of discussion about Mr. Threehorn really does show he and Cera just have more meat to their characters than Hyp, his cronies, and his dad.
Yup, the second sequel most definitely would've turned out better if the story was focused on a conflict between main characters and their relatives. As for Cera's dad... Well, I was about to say that the LBT5 made it look like Topsy was one of the main proponents of the idea of spliting the group up which hardly supported the case of him "just doing what's right and good for everyone", but rather once again showed old Mr. Threehorn at best as "do it my way or get lost" kind of guy and at worst as someone who'd ditch everyone else if it meant increasing his and his kid's chances of survival... But yeah, we've dwelled upon his character long enough and bringing other sequels into this kind of goes against the original topic of this thread. :lol: I don't even have anything against Tops, it's just that ever since the original movie I always viewed him as a kind of "ideological enemy" to what the gang and indeed the Great Valley itself stood for: this joined community of all sorts of dinos that overcame their differences to better protect themselves from the dangerous world they had to share. Of course as the series progressed they mostly got rid of the darker and more serious undertones as well as any meaningful character development and it's a darn shame that no real battle of worldviews ever took place. :o
-
Oh, I'm not saying Mr. Threehorn is a nice person by any stretch of the imagination and I agree that he is a close-mined, pig-headed racist (though he gradually gets better about all these things as the series goes on). I just happen to agree with him on the very specific matter of tightly regulating the remaining water. Otherwise, I usually disagree with him.
-
He's just hot headed thinks he knows everything when he doesn't. Get's everyone in more trouble than he does help out.
-
Here's another weird thought on LBT3... Whatever happened to the sharpteeth that fought the grown ups in the climax of the movie? They were swept away by the water once the kids destroyed the dam that blocked off the river, but wouldn't the current take them directly into the Great Valley? Sure there's little chance of them surviving falling down the waterfall, but what if they did? :blink:
-
there was scene where Sharpteeth get out from water, not?
-
there was scene where Sharpteeth get out from water, not?
Yeah, indeed. They are seen climbing out of the water (still in the Mysterious Beyond too). :)
Would be a pretty nasty scenario if they survived the fall down the Thundering Waterfalls and continued to wreak havoc in the Great Valley.
-
True, but there were only three sharpteeth in that scene, while at least four, maybe more took part in the attack. With how fast the water rushed into the Great Valley it's logical to assume the missing predator(s) were taken to the herbivores' safe haven.
-
Animators and consistency with numbers of background characters... I think you know that they hardly ever try to keep these numbers consistent :p
-
Or maybe... Just maybe... There is a velociraptor on the loose in the Great Valley! Panic! PANIC! :D
-
Animators and consistency with numbers of background characters... I think you know that they hardly ever try to keep these numbers consistent :p
yeah, remember how much Tinysaurs attacked two fastbiters? XD
------
I don't think they would survive falling from Thunderfall.
-
Those raptors where the only cool things in the movie. And yeah that was pretty amazing they attcked those fast biters.
-
I have not seen LBT 3 in such a long while; it's the only sequel outside of 14 that I DON'T have in my collection. This is not indicative of my opinion of the movie, just so you know; the time for me to easily find and buy it has just passed long ago.
Anyway, these are very interesting points. We could've taken this time to learn why Topps thinks that way, but a lot of that time was filled by Hyp and his gang. Maybe the original idea wasn't working for the higher-ups and Hyp was just put in to fill time?
-
LBT 3 was one I used to like a lot, and still is probably my favorite of the sequels. I'm past the LBT phase I was in when I first came here where I looked at my favorite sequels as "amazing", but I still have soft spots for LBT 3, 5 and 7.
-
"The Time of Great Giving" does address something very serious in our times, water shortage and rationing. For those in USA, this is a perfect entry for Thanksgiving. But perhaps what I found most memorable was homage to the success of Jurassic Park, i.e. Velociraptors (really Utahraptor and Dienonychus), hence their presence as sharpteeth at climax of the film. In my opinion this film flushed out Topsy or Mr. Threehorn more, and the escape from fire is rather fraught with emotion.
As for Hip and his crew, the point was definitely to teach children about bullying. It is these messages amongst adventure and lovable characters that makes The Land Before Time endure.
-
As with the first and second films, this too I can remember from my childhood, if only barely. There was already much I'd already forgotten about the first film when I rewatched it as an adult, and even more I'd forgotten about the second film. Whereas there was even more still that I forgot with this one, to the point that I really don't remember any specific scenes at all. There was just something about the bully characters that was familiar to me, and I could ever-so-vaguely recall the forest fire, but that was it.
Interesting to see that a lot of people don't like this one and/or regard it as one of the weaker entries. Personally, I thought it was an improvement over the second film.
I like that there was a redemption arc for Daddy Topps in the same way that Cera had hers in the first film. It was established in the second film that, while Cera had mellowed out, Topps was still prejudiced against other dinosaurs, so I'm glad they addressed that more fully here.
Making the parallels even stronger, notice how during the fire, Topps leads himself and Cera down his own path and nearly gets them killed, but they are saved just in time by Grandpa Longneck, whereupon Topps gets his slice of humble pie. Very similar to how, in the first film, Cera led the other dinosaurs down her own path and nearly got them killed, but they were saved by Littlefoot, and Cera subsequently got her slice of humble pie. The treestar certainly does not fall far from the tree.
:TreeStar
My favourite part of the film comes shortly after this when Topps sees Hyp's father yell at him, which shames Topps into realizing how much of a jerk he himself has been.
Topps: "Yelling is no way to teach your child what is right or to show that you care."
Hyp's father: "How would you know?"
Topps: "I know because... because I have a daughter... and I yell at her. Too much. Especially when I'm worried for her safety. [...] If you always react with anger, that's all your son will know, and that's all he'll be able to express to others."
A very touching moment of self-realization. I especially love the way Topps hesitates after "because" and his face falls. You can tell it's painful for him to have to admit it, but he ultimately owns up to his flaws while passing on a valuable lesson to someone else. His last line is especially profound in bringing things full circle and explaining Cera's own behaviour in the first film.
Also...
Grandma Longneck: "We must come up with a plan to free the water."
Topps: "I have a plan."
Mr. Clubtail: "I hope it's better than your fire escape plan."
:DD
And Ducky has a great line too: "I do not like Sharpteeth, oh no. Their teeth are too sharp."
Well, I have always found the Guest Characters of Week (Hyp, Mutt, and Nod) neither memorable or interesting. They're pretty typical bully characters, the kind you see in EVERYTHING (especially if you read a lot of Stephen King like I do). Sure, they graft on a "kids emulate their parents, and if you're a big meany-pants, your kid probably will be, too" at the last minute, but...
Don't Daddy Tops and Cera already have that covered? Yet it rarely ever gets the attention I think it warrants (outside of the original 1988 film, anyway). LBT3 could actually have been an opportunity to explore in-depth the many underlying issues of Cera's father being the resident backwards thinking racist and the effect that has on her.
That is an excellent point, and I can't fully disagree with it. I personally didn't mind the bullies, however. The topic of bullying in their dinosaur society was an interesting concept, at least. If nothing else, I'm thankful for the bully characters because it was a build-up to the reveal about Hyp's father, which in turn led to the aforementioned scene with Topps and was a key moment in his development. I felt it was significant that Topps seeing his own flaws within another lousy father is what likewise caused him to see those flaws within himself.
The bullies and Hyp's father being redundant to the story is a solid argument, but I liked the parallels between the different characters, and how they all come to realize that despite their prejudices, they're really not that different from each other. I've dealt with friends in the past who were racist or otherwise prejudiced, so it speaks to me on a personal level.
Overall, I give this film a 7/10.
Regarding the debate about whether Topps was justified in taking charge of the water supply or not, I actually agree with both sides of the argument to an extent. In itself, I don't think Topps was wrong to step up and take charge, even if he had to be "tough" about it. At the very least, someone had to do it. However, I don't think Topps was the best candidate for that position.
The main reason I feel this way is because of his harsh prejudice against other dinosaurs, which was demonstrated multiple times, as well as his general jerk-ish behaviour, which likewise had a toxic influence on his daughter in the first film. In particular the fact that he's so quick to declare Littlefoot, a very sweet kid, as a "bad influence." Not to mention his "fire escape plan" that nearly got himself and his daughter killed. Yeah, not someone I'd be super-enthusiastic about trusting. He just wasn't a good leader, at least not until he reforms near the end of the film.
I do agree that something needed to be done about the water supply problem, but I also feel that Topps was just a bit too quick to step up and decide that he and he alone was going to be the one to take care of it.
Anyway, I loved reading the discourse and seeing everybody's thoughts on the manner.
-
(merged this into my review above)
-
I actually came to this movie with lower expectations, hoping it'd be at least a decent movie, considering it's a sequel. Well, it's a great movie actually! While you may think the lesson of the movie is obvious with the title of it, you'd only be half right. It also teaches children teamwork and cooperation, vital aspects of getting a hard task done. Many scenes in the movie demonstrates this nicely, such as the GOF helping Hyp by pulling him out of a tar pit and a combined effort by both the children and adults to fight off the Velociraptor threat near the end of the movie. Another lesson that is very predominant in the movie is anti-bullying, with the characters Hyp, Mutt, and Nod filling in the roles as the bullies. I honestly don't really care for them at all, especially since I feel that they're generic antagonists that only annoy the main characters instead of pose a threat to them.
I love how Topps was portrayed in this movie as a character! It still shows him as a stubborn threehorn with harsh prejudice against other dinosaurs. But, by the end of the movie, it reveals the true heart that laid hidden under his tough skin all along. It took the scolding of Hyp by his father to realize how much of a jerk he was to everyone and even his daughter, as already mentioned by Stardust below. To see him admit his own flaws and apologize for it is true character development right there. It takes true courage to do that, something which is an excellent lesson for everyone, not just kids. By looking at his face, you see genuine remorse. I must mention though that I shook my head a couple of times at his actions, such as that "fire escape plan." But, that part I felt was a huge first step in his reformation, as shown when Grandpa Longneck saves him and Cera from the fire. He had no hesitation in following him because he knew that he himself was wrong, but also because there's no point in asserting your dominance in a life or death situation. Besides, he had Cera to ensure that she's safe too.
I have a huge negative in this movie that I'd like to address. I'm sure that this may be a recurring theme in the upcoming sequels I'll be watching soon, but are the adults really that immature and incompetent? I thought they'd be more civil and rational in discussions, especially when it's a sensitive topic, such as one that deals with food or water shortage. I knew once I saw the bickering, that the kids would go off on their own adventure to discover the source of the missing water problem. Low and behold, they discover the problem in no time at all, just outside in the Mysterious Beyond. The adults weren't completely useless, as shown near the end of the movie, but for the most part, yes. Of course, it's important to show that adults aren't perfect and they're susceptible to error like everyone else, but honestly the arguing annoyed me a lot. That brings us to another lesson about arguing and violence not solving anything, so at least something good came out of that.
Another thing about the movie is how I thoroughly enjoyed it and didn't really find it too boring. Out of the three songs, the first one was my least favorite, but the other two I enjoyed listening to. In my opinion, the real conflict in the movie comes at its peak, the climax obviously. A lot of peril and excitement was presented with the introduction of the sparked fire from a lightning strike. It forced the Great Valley residents to put their differences aside and put everyone's safety as their number one priority.
Overall, I find this movie to be excellent.
8/10 :)
-
The Time of the Great Giving is my least favorite of the first ten films. I applaud it tackled “bullying,” but it felt like an Thanksgiving film. I am thrilled if introduced Velociraptors (really Deinychus and Utahraptor).
-
(see here (http://www.gangoffive.net/index.php?topic=17035.msg522778#msg522778) for my thoughts on the bullies)
The Time of the Great Giving is my least favorite of the first ten films. I applaud it tackled “bullying,” but it felt like an Thanksgiving film.
I didn't think of that before, but that's a good observation. Although for me, having the feel of a holiday/Thanksgiving film is a plus; helps the film stand out more. Much like how LBT 8 feels like a holiday film for December... which is also an insight that you originally shared. :)
Anyway, I thought a rewatch of this one would be interesting. Last year, when I saw it for the first time (as an adult), I remember I liked it a bit better than LBT 2, but I was largely only comparing LBT 3 to the first two films, having not yet seen the later sequels. But this time around, I was watching it in the context of having seen all the rest of the films as well. I was concerned that it might not hold up as good as it did before, but I was pleasantly surprised to find how much I still enjoyed it.
The opening is fantastic. But then again, maybe that's because it reminds me of LBT 1's opening. Regardless, that music is top-notch. This is one thing I enjoy about the early and middle sequels; James Horner's music was still used a lot.
:wub
Also, Candace Hutson. Still my favourite Cera voice actress. <3
One of my points of praise last time was Topsy's character development. This is something that still holds up after having seen the whole series. In fact, after eleven more sequels, this is still the most depth and character development he's ever been given, as many of the other films just fall back on his "stern, grumpy dad" persona. I do appreciate that the later sequels show glimmers of his softer side beneath all the grouchiness, showing that the events of this film did change him for the better. Still, it is a shame that he never again gets the same character focus and growth that he has here. LBT 11 is probably the only other film that comes the closest. But even there, #11 also seemed to regress back to making him overly belligerent, just to have him learn his lesson by the end of it, making it sort of redundant with his character arc here.
There's a part of me that still wishes LBT 2 & 3 had retained the darker tone of the original film. But on the other hand, I like the slightly more day-to-day feel they have in showing how the dinosaurs are adjusting to their new home within the valley, and how it contrasts so much from what their world was like before the Great Valley.
Grandma Longneck: "We must come up with a plan to free the water."
Topps: "I have a plan."
Mr. Clubtail: "I hope it's better than your fire escape plan."
And of course this exchange, which made me laugh upon seeing the film again. :DD
Ducky has another great line too: "My sniffer is very, very sniffed out."
Something I never noticed the first time around. Topsy mentions his father during "Standing Tough". I thought that was interesting; I believe that's the only time Topsy's dad is ever mentioned? Also interesting is that, from the way Topsy talks about him, it sounds as though his father is no longer alive. I wonder... did his father pass away from old age, or did something more abrupt and tragic happen? We'll probably never have an official answer, but it's still fun to speculate.
As with the first and second films, this too I can remember from my childhood, if only barely. There was already much I'd already forgotten about the first film when I rewatched it as an adult, and even more I'd forgotten about the second film. Whereas there was even more still that I forgot with this one, to the point that I really don't remember any specific scenes at all. There was just something about the bully characters that was familiar to me, and I could ever-so-vaguely recall the forest fire, but that was it.
Adding onto that, when I watched it again, I found there was one other little moment I could recall from when I was a wee lad. The part when the bee comes out of the flower and chases the bullies away. I'm not sure why it was that specific moment I remembered and barely anything else about the film, but there you have it. :p
As for the ending, I did find it kinda cheesy and heavy-handed with the moral. But all in all, I'd say LBT 3 still holds up. :yes
-
The Time of the Great Giving is my least favorite of the first ten films. I applaud it tackled “bullying,” but it felt like an Thanksgiving film. I am thrilled if introduced Velociraptors (really Deinychus and Utahraptor).
Yeah, that's what I've always thought of it as well. And the Velociraptors were indeed pretty memorable.