The Gang of Five
The forum will have some maintenance done in the next couple of months. We have also made a decision concerning AI art in the art section.


Please see this post for more details.

Developing a board game - need online playtesters!

vonboy

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I'll be there for another game. :D

Now, I just need to get off my lazy behind, and edit together montage video. :P
Come check out my new Youtube gaming channel, Game Biter!
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Littlefoot: "Look, Chomper. You're uncle is dead, and it's just right for your friends to be there for you. You'd be there if someone we know died, right?"

Chomper: "Well, sure I would!"

Come give my LBT TV Series fanfiction, PAST-O-RAMA, a read!
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(Runner-Up)



Ducky123

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Can't wait :D

Just need to get this stupid table top thingy first :D
Inactive, probably forever.



action9000

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Hey everyone and thanks for the game last week!

I just wanted to share some progress for the game's development.

Over the last couple of games I have found a few mechanic problems that I am changing for the next version:


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1) I have not been very happy with the Event system at all. Why?

a) The fact that every Event is simply resolved with Energy makes them all kind of feel the same. I would prefer to change the condition that succeeds / fails the event.

b) I can't really do that with the Event structure that we have right now. The Event mechanic we have no requires us to resolve an event at the end of each turn and draw a new one at the beginning of the next turn. This doesn't really create much tension or sense of dynamic gameplay. It's pretty static and not all that interesting.

c) Due to the fact that there are 4 different kinds of spaces to land on, no one type of event happens often enough in the course of a game. This is especially a problem with the Savage Seas, which do most of the damage to the ship. If the players SUCCEED a Savage Seas event, the ship is probably going to be perfectly safe and there won't be any threat to the Ship until the next Savage Seas, likely many turns away. This sucks.

d) Everyone's Energy is always worth the same amount. This means that the player going last is always given the burden of having to dump a bunch of energy into the Event to succeed / fail it. I would like to encourage more decision-making by everyone, rather than just the players later in the turn.


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2) Too many cards in each deck just aren't that interesting to play.



The fun cards are the ones that have a noticeable, meaningful impact on the game right now. It's not fun to whittle everyone down by 1 Life or 1 Clout a turn for 4 hours. I tried that and it didn't work. I would like each player's deck to be more concentrated with interesting cards that have more game-changing impact while maintaining the basic idea that we've already seen for the player decks.


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3) Ghosts. Ghosts weren't all that fun to play, were too hard to create and their role in the game was just unclear.

a) Life has always been the crappiest stat on a card. If you could choose between attacking someone's Life or someone's Clout/Loot, you would never choose Life. It was just a bad move most of the time.

b) There were too many cases where it was better to die than to stay alive. This created a seriously weird dynamic.

c) It was never really clear what Ghosts were going to do. The fact that they didn't have Energy and didn't contribute to Events made them 100% about their cards. Ghosts are another reason the Event system is a bit broken.

d) Ghosts got far too many points too easily once you had more than 1 of them.


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4) Deciding where to move the Ship. Deciding which way to go has never been a very interesting choice, partly due to the random nature of the events. You really can't make an informed decision.

a) Yet another reason the Event system is broken.


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So how am I going to fix all of these problems?

Like this!

READ HERE FOR CHANGES:


Theme changes:
Rather than everyone simply being "an adventurer", players are now GREEDY ADVENTURERS, embarking on a perilous journey through cursed waters for great fortune and glory.

The Temporary name of the game is changing from "Seaworthy" to "Sea of Cursed Souls"


Events as we known them (Mild Seas, Savage Seas, etc.) are being REMOVED from the game!


Introducing CURSES. Curses apply to everyone and last until they are dispelled! If you accumulate 3 Curses at the same time, the game is over and everyone loses! Therefore players MUST work together to dispel the curses.
Curses apply countless effects such as :

"The Captain loses DOUBLE Life from all sources" or
"If 2 Curses of Death exist at the same time, the player with the lowest Life dies immediately".
This replaces the EVENT system. Again, these last until they are removed from the board so you will often have more than 1 curse at the same time!


Basic actions can always be done once per turn, at the cost of 1 Energy. These include:
"Pick an opponent. They lose 1 Life."
"Pick an opponent. They lose 1 Clout."
"Pick an opponent. They lose 1 Loot."
These do not require cards and are available to EVERYONE once per turn. This means that we can REMOVE all such lame cards from all decks, allowing me to concentrate more powerful cards into the decks which should be much more fun! Everyone should have more dramatic hands of cards at all times now.


The map will have Immediate Events instead of the Event cards that we're familiar with. Some will spawn CURSES. Others will be things like "The Captain gains 1 Life / Loot / etc." This makes is crystal clear to the Captain which way to travel at all times. This also means we can make powerful Immediate Events hidden behind some nasty other spaces that trigger all sorts of awful things...if the Captain feels brave enough to go for them! This gives the game much more of a sense of adventure and real risk-taking.


Ghosts will have their roles more-clearly defined. Ghosts ALWAYS like curses and players basically ALWAYS hate them. Ghosts will attempt to spawn more curses and do other nasty things to living players.

Ghost scoring will be a little different: GHOSTS CAN'T GET POINTS!
Ghosts now win if everyone dies OR if the Captain dies, rather than it coming down to points.



We'll see how this goes!
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 02:54:37 PM by action9000 »


DarkWolf91

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Oooh, really interested to try this out! It almost sounds like a completely new game!



Flathead770

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It certainly sounds like the game will be real interesting the next time around. I guess I should weigh in my thoughts on the game during last session, though it might be irrelevant now with all the changes.


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1) I have not been very happy with the Event system at all. Why?
The problem I had with events is that almost all of them felt like they weren't worth the energy to contribute and I would rather spend them upgrading the ship or my ability (especially knowing Jordy was probably going to just sabotage anyways :p ).

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2) Too many cards in each deck just aren't that interesting to play.
Yeah I think I can agree to that. There were quite a few times I felt I was discarding most of my hand after each turn. The problem I had specifically with Norah is that with no one really taking any damage, healing others wasn't much of a thing and since some of her cards revolved around losing life, I was mostly the main target to heal anyways.

I also thought that her ability to heal others to gain clout would be really good to maintain clout throughout the game but I stopped investing into the ability around mid-game since clout never really became an issue. Late game I finally unlocked it as a way to keep me alive and that's about it. This leads to one of my concerns when playing the game: clout felt too stable. I had imagined the clout would be a very volatile component of the game, constantly fluctuating and hard to maintain a positive value. After I maxed out on clout early on I never really dipped down much and I think most clout drops occurred from bribes (the only significant ones I can remember are the transform healing into clout dmg on Ducky and Jordy taking -4 because he really wanted to destroy the ship)

There were quite a few cards that ended up not being to useful and discarded due to this, which is a shame because gaining clout seems to be one of Norah's advantages.

Disclaimer: I was also pretty much last the whole game so maybe no one really targeted me much? Most everyone was sitting pretty high on clout though from what I remember.

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There were too many cases where it was better to die than to stay alive. This created a seriously weird dynamic.
Taking a jab at my metagaming strategies? :p

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On the topic of ghosts. I'm glad that they're still in the game as I think it's a good system to deter killing people off too quickly and gives a more conscious process to when to start all out on backstabbing. I still stand by my decision to kill myself at the end of last game. It's those kind of turn of events that could make the game utter chaos (in a good way). I like the idea of removing less interesting cards so we can hopefully get more of these moments.

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As for the other new changes, I have a few questions:

1) For the basic spending energy actions, will certain modifier/conditional cards work with/against them or will that be not an interesting enough card to include in the decks?

2) You mention that everyone loses in the event 3 curses are applied. Does that include ghosts since they involve using curses? That could create a bit of a balancing act, though I have no idea on how it will all play out at the moment obviously and that could be too easy for a victory condition.

3) Ghost victory conditions are either the captain or everyone dies and also the game is now themed around curses. So will ship durability still be in the game?

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All in all these changes are exciting and I hope I'll have the chance to participate in future sessions.

PS: Where's Reginald? :lol


action9000

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I agree with basically everything you said, Flathead.
One of the most difficult design problems for this game has been getting the balance right between co-operative play and competitive play. In most versions, including the most recent, the cooperative aspect tends to feel very shoehorned in and isn't fleshed out very well.

The reworking of the Event system into the Curse system is one way I am addressing this problem. Curses will have a variety of conditions that must be met in order to remove them. They won't all simply be about spending enough Energy on them. They could be things like "overthrow the Captain", "get someone to -3 Clout", "Everyone sacrifices 4 Life to the Evil Spirits", "One player must sacrifice 3 Loot", etc. All sorts of crazy removal conditions could exist on curses to torment players. Things like "one player must sacrifice 3 Loot" really puts a selfless act into the game - someone must make the noble stand to lose their own loot for the sake of removing a curse. Note too that curses have other effects while they're active. For example, that curse may cause everyone to lose 2 Life per turn until someone sacrifices 3 Loot or something.
That may or may not be an actual Curse card yet, I don't know, but that's kind of the idea.

Quote

The problem I had with events is that almost all of them felt like they weren't worth the energy to contribute and I would rather spend them upgrading the ship or my ability (especially knowing Jordy was probably going to just sabotage anyways :p ).
I completely agree and this is one of the major reasons that I'm reworking the Events. Yes, I could just make the numbers bigger on the events but the decisions around them still weren't very interesting. They devolved into a simple calculation: "Are the numbers on the event big enough to be worth investing energy into, yes or no?" If yes, everyone invested. If no, nobody invested. It wasn't exactly an interesting decision. :P

I will still be keeping the concept of immediate events, but in a somewhat different form. Every so often, an immediate event can take place will likely be designed to reward anyone who contributes to it, harm everyone who doesn't, give ways for a powerful player to use their advantage at the moment, give everyone else ways to reel in someone who's running away with the game a little bit, etc.

The "Event on every space" is being removed though, and being replaced with a system that spawns Curses and triggers immediate events every-so-often.
Why is this better? This means we can have clearer LOSE conditions that will obviously come about if players do not work together on removing curses. It becomes much clearer that it will be necessary to remove most curses.

What about the problem of trolling? Couldn't a losing player simply refuse to help and cause everyone to lose?
Well, yes they can...but you do have one option: KILL THE TROLL! If the troll dies, they can't be part of the curse removal equation anymore and this problem goes away. If someone's trolling, focus on killing them, which will be much easier to do now.


Now for your questions:

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1) For the basic spending energy actions, will certain modifier/conditional cards work with/against them or will that be not an interesting enough card to include in the decks?
I am removing MODIFIER cards. They're too similar to conditional cards and I can simply combine the mechanic into conditional cards. The intention of MODIFIER cards was to clarify what the card was for but this is really unnecessary.

I will be keeping conditional cards as a concept, yes. Being able to play cards when it's not your turn, or in response to something happening, opens up so much flexibility and can be so rewarding and satisfying that there's no way I'm removing this feature. :)


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2) You mention that everyone loses in the event 3 curses are applied. Does that include ghosts since they involve using curses? That could create a bit of a balancing act, though I have no idea on how it will all play out at the moment obviously and that could be too easy for a victory condition.

In the event that 3 Curses are applied, all living players lose and all Ghosts win. As such, there is always a very clear relationship between curses, living players and ghosts:

For a living player, curses are basically always bad. They want to get rid of curses.

For a ghost, curses are basically always good. They want to pile on the curses.


Quote
3) Ghost victory conditions are either the captain or everyone dies and also the game is now themed around curses. So will ship durability still be in the game?
Ship durability will remain in the game since it can be a very handy target for ghosts and curses. It can also be useful as a resource that players can spend to do selfish actions.
For example "I get angry and the ship loses 1 Durability but all opponents lose 3 Life" or something.

So Ship durability can still be a useful mechanic. I'll leave it in for now. If it turns out to be redundant I may remove it but at the moment I'm seeing a lot of ways it can still be utilized.
With that said, I am changing the WIN/LOSS conditions around Ship Durability. If the Ship sinks, living players LOSE and Ghosts WIN. This further makes it clear what the relationship between living players and Ghosts is. This also eliminates the problem of "oh, the ghosts are going to win. let's just sink the ship so they can't."


It will indeed be a nasty game design balancing act to get this to work well.
My ultimate goal is for the game to feel like this:

- Surviving the entire trip is quite hard. There will be at least 1 or 2 deaths every game, with most games having a handful of deaths.

- A living player will win about 33-50% of the time. The ghosts will win 50-66% of the time. I would like it to feel more rewarding to win as a player than to win as a ghost because I want to REWARD players for AVOIDING death and making it to the end alive. I definitely want ghosts to be able to win, but I want the ultimate feeling of accomplishment in the game to come from winning while also being alive!

- Even Surviving to the end should be hard. Being the WINNER at the end while also surviving should be a big accomplishment.


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PS: Where's Reginald? :lol
He'll be in the next game!  :Mo
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 01:22:48 PM by action9000 »


action9000

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Hey everyone!

I'm looking to run another game, featuring the latest version!

Date: June 3rd
Time:  11am MST (GMT -7), as usual.

It sounds like Ducky123, Darkwolf and Rhombus will likely be joining us.

Please let me know if you'd like to get in on this! I have 3 more player slots open!

** BIGGEST CHANGES FROM THE LAST VERSION **

- Streamlining and condensing. Game will be SHORTER and each turn will be more important / dramatic. Game is now 14 turns instead of 20.

- Introduction of Catastrophes, as an alternative to Assisting / Sabotaging events. This is the biggest new system I'd like to test.

- Introduction of a new 6th character: Please welcome Reginald the Gentleman! Thanks to Reginald, we can support 6 players!

- Completely rewrote every single deck in the game and rebalanced each character while maintaining playstyles / personalities of each character.

- Completely reworked scoring system.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 07:52:19 PM by action9000 »