Blocking ads

F-14 Ace · **on:** February 12, 2016, 04:11:15 AM

I was wondering what everyone's views on blocking ads are. I used to not block ads, but after getting several malware infections from websites I once trusted, I finally decided to install Adblock Plus and all my malware-containing ad problems vanished into thin air. Now, however, it seems like more and more sites are trying to bully/guilt trip people with adblock into not blocking their crappy ads.

People block ads for a number of reasons. They slow down your browser, eat up your bandwidth, install malware, and they're annoying. I mean, a small ad off to the side somewhere would be plenty sufficient enough to get the point across but no, the unscrupulous sleeze balls running these ad companies feel the need to create ads that have obnoxious video/audio, drop down and obscure your screen, close your browser if you click the "close" button on the ad, redirect you to pages infested with malware, and are just a pain in the backside in general. As long as ad companies use those despicable tactics, I will continue to block their garbage.

But again, websites that generate money from ads are using increasingly aggressive tactics to combat ab blockers. One of the worst offenders I've come across if Forbes. As if their "welcome" screen wasn't obnoxious enough already, now, if it detects that your using an ad blocker, it displays a smart alecky message verbally waving a finger at you and demanding that you disable your ad blocking software.

While searching for a way to bypass it (because let's be honest, no matter what they do, there's always a way), I came across several articles discussing all the ad companies Forbes sells your data to and all the malware their ads have been distributing. So ya know what? Screw sites like Forbes! First they sell your data to scammers and then they try to guilt trip users into not blocking their ads when people get fed up with the malware. Sites like that can go bankrupt for all I care. I'm gonna keep blocking their garbage ags. And yes, I did find a way to bypass anti-ad blocker scripts.

pokeplayer984 · **Reply #1 on:** February 12, 2016, 10:27:30 AM

^^You have pretty much listed all of the reasons I have my Adblock on by default. I'm sorry ad-companies, but until all those places stop with this nonsense, I'm not removing mine.

Now, if your content is good enough that I want to support you, I will disable it. However, if then your ads prove to be all the bothersome things listed, I turn it right back on.

I consider my ad-blocker an extra layer of protection. Bottom line!

landbeforetimelover · **Reply #2 on:** February 12, 2016, 10:59:02 AM

AdBlock Plus sucks. It was the first ad blocking plugin I tried, but I quickly got tired of it. Did you know that AdBlock actually uses more resources trying to block the ads then the ads do? And it's not 100% effective. What a pain. Also, there are some sites that load more slowly with AdBlock enabled because it blocks things it shouldn't.

I switched over to Ublock Origin and it's been the best ad blocker I've used BY FAR.

As for blocking ads, the reason is simple. I'm not stupid enough to click on them anyway. I buy things based on what I want, not because some company tries to shove a product down my throat. When I want to go buy something, I go looking for it, not the other way around. I have NEVER intentionally clicked on an ad and I never will.

Research suggests that most people are like me and don't pay attention to ads and would never click on them anyway. Back when I used to run websites with ads on them, my CTR (Click Through Rate) was anywhere between 0.29% and 2.67% unless I used shady tactics to disguise my ads as regular site content. I imagine CTR is even lower nowadays seeing as everyone knows what an internet ad is and they try to avoid them.

Add to this the fact that 99% of malware and viruses are spread through malicious ads and there's absolutely NO reason why anyone shouldn't be blocking ads nowadays. Ads had a good run, but it's time to find a better way for sites to make money. It's not the 1990's and early 2000's anymore.

vonboy · **Reply #3 on:** February 12, 2016, 11:42:17 AM

The problem with a lot of websites nowadays, is they are trying to sell subscription or premium services, in which one of the main advertised feature is no ads. This is a horrible feature, as a lot of people now use ad blockers.

The irony here is that these websites TRAINED their viewers to use ad blockers. These sites showed their viewers that they better find a way around these ads, as they're just getting more obnoxious, and virus ridden by the day.

They've milked ads for just about everything they're worth by now, and now they have to pay the price for it. Just removing the ads isn't enough for a lot of people. Now they have to try to come up with other features or content for people to pay.

Kinda went on a tangent here, but just something I've noticed.

F-14 Ace · **Reply #4 on:** February 12, 2016, 12:18:39 PM

I really love the smartasses who say "well if you don't like the ads then just don't visit those websites! You're stealing their content!" If you perscribed to that advice then you'd pretty much have to avoid the internet altogether. And they're also assuming that those sites contain contend that's actually worth payin for.

landbeforetimelover · **Reply #5 on:** February 12, 2016, 06:14:54 PM

Quote from: F-14 Ace,Feb 12 2016 on 10:18 AM

I really love the smartasses who say "well if you don't like the ads then just don't visit those websites! You're stealing their content!" If you perscribed to that advice then you'd pretty much have to avoid the internet altogether. And they're also assuming that those sites contain contend that's actually worth payin for.

There's no such thing as a website that doesn't have ads except for local websites and Wikipedia (though Wikipedia is CONSTANTLY harassing its visitors about donating). Local websites don't have ads because it actually hurts them. For example, I run a computer repair business and have a website. If I put ads on my site, I'd probably earn around $250/month in advertising revenue. However those ads would belong to my competitors! I'd lose WAY more business trying to make that $250/month then it's worth. I don't think I'd even do it for $5,000/month.

Ducky123 · **Reply #6 on:** February 12, 2016, 08:26:33 PM

I've never used them and currently I don't see any need to install them. Most sites I use regularly don't have a lot of ads (kind of like here on the GoF) so it's not really bothering me much.

Animeboye · **Reply #7 on:** February 12, 2016, 08:47:59 PM

One thing I love to do in my free time is browse various Wikis for franchises I'm a fan of. Before my friends helped me install Adblock, I was always bombarded by really disgusting ads (those weight loss ones I mentioned a few times years ago) or those video ads that were so loud they scared me half to death whenever they'd start playing. I'm very grateful to my friends for helping to put Adblock on my computer. Thanks to them, my Internet browsing has never been better. I don't have to worry about visiting Wikis, Deviantart, etc. and seeing gross ads or having loud, obnoxious ads take me by surprise and scare the crap out of me.

Ads just need to disappear period. Nobody likes them. They're intrusive, annoying, and for the most part, outdated. If certain sites don't like Adblock, then either make the ads more appealing or find a different way to make money because Adblock ain't goin' away anytime soon.

WeirdRaptor · **Reply #8 on:** February 12, 2016, 10:09:56 PM

The alternative is for sites to change you money to look at them.

pokeplayer984 · **Reply #9 on:** February 13, 2016, 01:34:42 AM

One alternative I have come to enjoy are those whom reward those that donate to them. Let's say you go to a site that have video reviews of movies and they say they'll review a movie of your request if you donate to them. So, you go and donate to them and put in a note what you want them to review. They then make that review in their spare time while still working on the ones they are currently doing.

Patreon has become a favorite of creators and reviewers whom want to do something like this. Heck, Linkara has jumped on the bandwagon and plans to do Big Bad Bettleborgs if he reaches a certain amount. I seriously hope he makes his goal as I LOVED his analysis of the entirety of Power Rangers. I really do want to see more of his work on those types of shows.

I might be donating a few bucks to a few people myself to see if they'll do what I want them to. Tell you how it goes when it happens.

landbeforetimelover · **Reply #10 on:** February 13, 2016, 09:21:36 PM

Quote from: WeirdRaptor,Feb 12 2016 on 08:09 PM

The alternative is for sites to change you money to look at them.

There are plenty of other ways to monetize the website without having annoying ads everywhere. Create a product or service related to the theme of your website and sell it for a few bucks. Host a contest or endorse a product. Ask for donations. Hire experts in the field and have your users pay to ask them questions directly. Paid membership article based websites were never popular, even in the 1990's. Everyone was thankful when they were (mostly) eliminated. Some websites are trying this crap again today, but it doesn't work. No one wants to pay to read an article. Information is plentiful and it's everywhere. If you can't get the information from one website, you'll find it on another.

But honestly, even if there was NO financial compensation of any kind, there are plenty of websites out there that are run by volunteers. There are plenty of people willing to create content and work for free, because they really enjoy what they do and don't consider it work. Just look at all the free YouTube videos out there. Sure, they can choose to get compensated by Google for advertising, but no one who's popular on YouTube created all those videos and offered all their help for the sole purpose of being financially compensated.

My point is, the internet would go on if not another dollar was made by advertisements. It would be an internet for the people and not the corporations. If you ask me, that's a good thing.

action9000 · **Reply #11 on:** February 14, 2016, 04:46:14 AM

I love this topic and my friends always give me crap for my opinions on it.

I'm completely with landbeforetimelover on this one.

The fact that AdBlock exists at all is basically saying to the Internet that "The people have spoken!" and that we won't tolerate that form of monetization anymore.

This presents an interesting challenge to internet content creators: Internet content is an interesting case because there isn't any traditional "transaction" going on; there is no "I want your X. I'll pay you Y money to get your X" scenario here.

Instead, the content consumer is LITERALLY required to pay in INCONVENIENCE. In TIME.

This brings up another interesting point:

If I were to skirt around Steam's shop system somehow and download a game for free to my account, that would be considered THEFT and am legally responsible for this as theft - I'm taking a digital product without paying for it by circumventing the monetization system in place.

In the case of AdBlock, however, if I visit a streaming video with AdBlock on a website, I'm STILL circumventing the monitization system in place to get a product for zero cost. The only difference is, rather than getting it free of money, I'm getting it free of inconvenience. At this time, this is NOT considered theft in any legal sense and the only difference is what is being given up by the consumer.

--------------

I completely agree that we need to somehow evolve beyond ad revenue driving free internet content. Consumers are no longer tolerating it and there are completely legal, simple ways to circumvent this entire system. Imagine if our ECONOMY was this easy to circumvent! The world would collapse!! Guess what! The internet has become a big part of the world economy!

It's only a matter of time before either

1) Ad blocking becomes illegal for the same reason that theft is illegal (which seems unlikely as hell and near-impossible to police without wicked amounts of privacy intrusion)

or

2) Content creators need to find another way to monetize because ad revenue will be considered an archaic, primitive, disrespectful-to-the-consumer way to earn their money. It will be shunned and be a way to instantly lose your entire audience, similar to how pay-to-win has become an instant stigma for online games in recent years.

I really don't think ad revenue-driven content is the future. Consumers won't stand for it. The very fact that adblockers exist and are some of the most popular browser addons is proof of this.

Why don't consumers stand for it? Honestly, I think it's simple: There's no need to! Consumers don't like paying more than they have to for anything - it's unwise to do so! Consumers feel cheated and taken-advantage of if they pay more than that. We have words for that: "Screwed"; "getting ripped off" etc. It's something consumers actively AVOID.

I've never gone to wal-mart and given then a little extra money "just because I want to support them". It's ludicrous to most people to do that and makes no economic sense.

In a similar vein, it makes no sense to use the internet without adblock installed. A minority will disable adblock for the sake of "supporting the content creator" but I really feel like this is just making the problem worse and slowing down the evolution of monetization by encouraging the behaviour. To me that's the equivalent of saying "no, you don't have to give me a discount just because it's on sale. I support you so I'll pay full price." Ludicrous!

The system as a whole has evolved to no longer support ad revenue as a monetization scheme. Everyone has an unlimited supply of "get this free!" coupons that they can choose to use on any ad-driven online service. Morality is the only thing preventing people from not exploiting this. It's baffling because, as said before, it makes absolutely NO economic sense NOT to use your coupons when they just magically appear in your wallet and you have an infinite number of them!

At the end of the day, economics will overrule "morality".

---------

As for a solution?

Make money the old fashioned way: Sell people stuff!
If people think your material is worth spending money on it, they will! We've seen this time-and-time again with arguments such as "supporting the content creator". We see sales of blu-rays of their content. We see CD and digital music downloads. We see custom artwork.

There are ways to market your product directly without relying on plugging in some generic ad-revenue system. Rather than making money off traffic, make money by making something that people actually want to BUY.

------------

Content creators:

People aren't assholes (generally). You can give them a fair deal and they're fine with it! People WILL support you if you make it worth their while. Right now, it's NOT worth my while to turn off adblock. Yeah I could disable it for certain sites, blah blah blah...that's a pain. This also does something very interesting:
It puts control...a CHOICE of whether or not you get paid for your product...in MY hands. That's not how economics works. Economics expects there to be a TRANSACTION:

I give you X. You give me Y.

With adblock, the consumer can LITERALLY turn off the "I give you X" part of the equation. This completely breaks economics as we know it. Putting that much power on one side is really a powder keg waiting to blow. It's the most unhealthy thing that could exist in an economy. I'll say it again: The consumer CAN CHOOSE whether or not the producer actually gets paid, regardless of how much product is consumed! That's so mind-blowing! That effectively turns your entire business model into "donation only".

As a consumer, I don't want to have to bother doing all that. Don't force me to think about morality and whether or not I want you to get credit for your work on my visit here. That's not why I'm here! I just want to enjoy your content! Let me enjoy your content and GIVE ME SOMETHING THAT I WANT TO BUY FROM YOU and I'll buy it from you! If you offer your best content for free and expect me to pay for stuff I don't want, I'm sorry but I'm not giving you any money. If you offer cool stuff for money and I like the stuff I HAVE seen from you, sure, I just might buy it!

Here'a an example: Many online shows offer blu-rays of their online content with some extras. I may really enjoy the online show, which I can watch for free with adblock on. This means you're getting zero revenue from me. Will I buy your blu-ray? Honestly...probably not. A few of us will but a lot of of won't. Why? We've already seen 95% of your content and the only stuff on the blu-ray will probably be stuff that didn't make the cut.

What does this example tell me? Maybe making an online show really isn't that profitable once you take away the ad-revenue. You need to expand out your business and use the online show as a way to grow your audience. Accept that the online show may actually have to run at a loss in order to drive the rest of your business. Just because you have the online show doesn't mean that show is your direct primary source of income. Sell me something cool outside of the show and I'll check it out!
At the end of the day though, maybe online shows just aren't that profitable on their own without ad revenue. Now for my point? THAT ISN'T MY PROBLEM AS A CONSUMER. If what you're trying to sell me can't be monetized, that's your problem. If you depend on ad revenue for your income and we can just adblock it, that's your problem for not diversifying enough in a world where you KNOW adblock exists. Don't blame me for running adblock.

Stop exploiting "clickbait" techniques to drive traffic and view numbers. Start actually marketing the thing you're offering to your audience.

In this world, SERVICES have also become very valuable! Offer TIME with your customers! If they buy or donate, spend time with them in a skype chat or something! Give them a little one-of-a-kind extra something. Making the audience feel special is a great way to improve your image and make money without resorting to ad revenue. A tip of the hat goes a long way!

I hate to say it, but if you can't make money and you're getting ad-blocked to death....so be it! Your product didn't make the cut. Don't blame ad-block. You just didn't evolve. You become too reliant on an outdated monetization scheme.

F-14 Ace · **Reply #12 on:** February 14, 2016, 12:59:32 PM

I completely agree with LBTL and Action here. These people who try to guilt trip and shame everyine who uses adblock are hypocrites. If you wanna bring up morals and ethics, these people are just as bad as they claim people who block their ads are. They're turning a profit at the expense of my time, security, and privacy so screw em. Wanna make money? Offer something I think is worth paying for.

WeirdRaptor · **Reply #13 on:** February 14, 2016, 11:46:03 PM

That's all fine and good if your web show is entirely original, but in the case of reviewers, all their content is based on critiquing someone else's product. Not a lot of room for legally creating secondary content.

Also, action, your little rant made you come off as a completely selfish and uncaring individual. So, LBTL and action, for all your talk about "evolving monetization", you offered no real suggestions as to what additional services content creators can supply that you would be willing to pay for. Why is that? I believe the answer is simple: they couldn't do enough to impress you enough to pay them. You've already made up your mind not give them any kind of compensation regardless of what they come up with and they can just go to hell.

landbeforetimelover · **Reply #14 on:** February 15, 2016, 02:55:51 PM

Quote from: WeirdRaptor,Feb 14 2016 on 09:46 PM

That's all fine and good if your web show is entirely original, but in the case of reviewers, all their content is based on critiquing someone else's product. Not a lot of room for legally creating secondary content.

Also, action, your little rant made you come off as a completely selfish and uncaring individual. So, LBTL and action, for all your talk about "evolving monetization", you offered no real suggestions as to what additional services content creators can supply that you would be willing to pay for. Why is that? I believe the answer is simple: they couldn't do enough to impress you enough to pay them. You've already made up your mind not give them any kind of compensation regardless of what they come up with and they can just go to hell.

For your information, I donate to websites all the time. But they have to provide something valuable. Bleepingcomputer is a great example. They provide REAL assistance for malware removal and other computer related problems, completely free. I can guarantee you, the owner of that website didn't make it so he could become rich off of ads or donations. He really likes what he does, and I support him for it. I also just donated to this guy:

http://exirion.net/ssdfanctrl/

He created a great little program that will control the HDD fan speed in an iMac where the fan speed controller cable is no longer working or connected (like when you upgrade the HDD to an SSD). He didn't pollute his website with fake download buttons and ads. He didn't charge $20 per computer for his program. It's absolutely FREE on as many computers as you want. All he asks for is an optional donation (which I gave him). I've decided to donate $20 per computer that I load with his software.

I've also donated to half a dozen other websites. I don't think you understand how little these website owners get from ad clicks. A few pennies on the dollar, and the click through rate is usually less than 1%. They would actually make MORE money by offering something valuable for free and asking for donations than screwing everyone that goes to their site and serving them potentially malware infested ads just to POTENTIALLY get a few cents if you click on an ad.

The problem is, the vast majority of people out there DO NOT offer anything worth donating to or buying. They want something for nothing, and until now ads have allowed them to do that. They've literally screwed all their visitors, all for the slim chance of getting a few bucks.

It all comes down to personal preference. I don't care one iota about news, so I would never donate to the Wall Street Journal. But I'm sure there are others that would if they were asked to. Better yet, if they offered additional products and services, they'd make even more. Instead, they've stuck to the old annoying ad model that screws their visitors.

Ads aren't good for anyone. Not the publisher, or the content consumer. They're good for companies that are promoting crappy products. If you have a good product, you shouldn't need much advertising. If you have a crappy product or service, you'll constantly need to be getting new customers to replace the ones that leave or are unsatisfied with your product and demand a refund. It's that simple.

pokeplayer984 · **Reply #15 on:** February 15, 2016, 03:38:08 PM

Let me show you just how yesterday's news making 6 figures a month with ads is. I actually got paid to learn this. I only got ten bucks, but I still got to learn how it's done.

Step 1. Create a Wordpress Blog and make an article.

Step 2. Pay $4.97 a month to run it.

Step 3. Get accepted by Google Ads. (Not as hard as you might think, but still tough.)

Step 4. Set up an e-mail subscription. (Which will have it's own Ads.)

Step 5. Create a Facebook Account.

Step 6. Friend Request as much as possible.

Step 7. Create an article about the site that paid you to find out how to do it with an affiliate link to said site. (Whom have ads themselves so they can pay everyone.)

Step 8. Pay Facebook $5 a day to advertise said article in Step 7.

Even those who make money off of ads know it's yesterday's news and add a step at the end that completely makes it bull-crap.

Oh, and here's a lovely thing I found out. If you cancel a payment to Facebook, you have to prove it was you just so you can get the option to have them advertise it and the method to get it back is pure bull-crap and was specifically made in case someone hacked your account and not to prove you cancelled a payment.

I have yet to get the privilege back. I'm better off creating a second Facebook Account just for advertising purposes.

WeirdRaptor · **Reply #16 on:** February 15, 2016, 04:15:36 PM

Quote

If you have a good product, you shouldn't need much advertising.

In a fair world, yes, but the situation is never cut-and-dry. I was beginning to agree with you until you said this, LBTL. Actually, the sad truth is that there are many good products out there that DO need more attention, a lot more, but get overlooked despite the best efforts of their creators. The fact is this world is not fair and despite what action said, people generally are assholes (our history is 90% war, abuse, and discrimination for a reason, you know). While I believe that virus-inducing ads should be gotten rid of, I think the option of ads should be left open at least for people just getting off the ground.

landbeforetimelover · **Reply #17 on:** February 15, 2016, 04:55:16 PM

Quote from: WeirdRaptor,Feb 15 2016 on 02:15 PM

Quote
If you have a good product, you shouldn't need much advertising.
In a fair world, yes, but the situation is never cut-and-dry. I was beginning to agree with you until you said this, LBTL. Actually, the sad truth is that there are many good products out there that DO need more attention, a lot more, but get overlooked despite the best efforts of their creators. The fact is this world is not fair and despite what action said, people generally are assholes (our history is 90% war, abuse, and discrimination for a reason, you know). While I believe that virus-inducing ads should be gotten rid of, I think the option of ads should be left open at least for people just getting off the ground.

There are plenty of places to "advertise" your new product or service without paying for pop up ads and sidebar image ads. Social media is huge, but so are forums, communities, and articles on popular websites. If your product or service is GOOD, then people will share it. If it's not good, it will require a TON of advertising just to get off the ground and will require constant advertising to keep a profit because of all the people that would never use the product or service again and would never recommend it to others (because it just wasn't good).

There are exceptions. I believe in local ads on Google and other search engines. If a person is actually LOOKING for something, displaying them relative ads is absolutely fine because that's what they're actually looking for.

The point is, there are tons of crappy products and services out there that only exist because of ads. If the opportunity to mass advertise didn't exist, they would have died in their infancy because not many people actually like the product/service.

And ads aren't worth it unless you already have TONS of traffic. With 1,000 visitors a day, you'd be lucky to make $10 a day in ads. That means to make $10,000/month (not a lot when you consider the costs of running some of these larger websites), you have to have 1 MILLION visitors per month!

WeirdRaptor · **Reply #18 on:** February 15, 2016, 06:00:47 PM

Quote

There are plenty of places to "advertise" your new product or service without paying for pop up ads and sidebar image ads. Social media is huge, but so are forums, communities, and articles on popular websites. If your product or service is GOOD, then people will share it. If it's not good, it will require a TON of advertising just to get off the ground and will require constant advertising to keep a profit because of all the people that would never use the product or service again and would never recommend it to others (because it just wasn't good).

In a fair world, yes. Everything you just said is an example of how things go in ideal conditions and under the assumption that nothing good EVER gets overlooked or that the competition doesn't play dirty. Good products and services DO get overlooked, everyday, and the businesses that spawn them DO unfairly go under. Its not a matter of their being exceptions to this, its a matter of it being an everyday thing, because this is an unfair world in which solid talent and know-how guarantees nothing. Luck is a big part of it, too. There are a million reasons a business can go under, and the answer is not always "because the product/advertising sucked". There are many factors that can go into it and you can't act like failed business/product was a failure due to lack of quality. There are many cases where that is true, but there many where it wasn't, too.

Quote

The point is, there are tons of crappy products and services out there that only exist because of ads. If the opportunity to mass advertise didn't exist, they would have died in their infancy because not many people actually like the product/service.

Or people just didn't pay any attention or overlooked it, which is just as likely. You do not hold all the answers as to why and how something succeeds and fails and you need to stop acting like you do.

Quote

And ads aren't worth it unless you already have TONS of traffic. With 1,000 visitors a day, you'd be lucky to make $10 a day in ads. That means to make $10,000/month (not a lot when you consider the costs of running some of these larger websites), you have to have 1 MILLION visitors per month!

At least its something, though. I said it should be an option.

landbeforetimelover · **Reply #19 on:** February 15, 2016, 08:43:14 PM

Quote from: WeirdRaptor,Feb 15 2016 on 04:00 PM

In a fair world, yes. Everything you just said is an example of how things go in ideal conditions and under the assumption that nothing good EVER gets overlooked or that the competition doesn't play dirty. Good products and services DO get overlooked, everyday, and the businesses that spawn them DO unfairly go under. Its not a matter of their being exceptions to this, its a matter of it being an everyday thing, because this is an unfair world in which solid talent and know-how guarantees nothing. Luck is a big part of it, too. There are a million reasons a business can go under, and the answer is not always "because the product/advertising sucked". There are many factors that can go into it and you can't act like failed business/product was a failure due to lack of quality. There are many cases where that is true, but there many where it wasn't, too.

You have to work VERY hard to get a product or service off the ground. What I don't like is some company with millions of dollars launching a crappy product or service and pumping millions into advertising to turn a tidy profit. Hard work is required. If you're not willing to do the hard work and just want to throw money at the problem, then you shouldn't be in business.

The point in all of this is that without ads, everything would be fine. Website owners would either provide real value for their visitors or go under. Companies would either put a lot of work and effort into their products and they would be very good, or they'll fade into oblivion. I'm not saying to eliminate ads completely overnight. That would be disastrous. But ads will be pretty much eliminated eventually by a large percentage of internet users using ad blockers. Those websites will either adapt or die. If they're smart they've started to do this already and provide real value so they can keep their audience and stay afloat during the transition. If not, they're going to sink and no one is going to miss them.