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Heroes Versus Villians

action9000

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I'm copying some of a conversation from Littlefoot Fan's topic, "I keep dreaming about the GOF Members!" into a new topic because this discussion is unrelated to Littlefoot Fan's post.

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Malte: Villains are popular. That's why so many of them manage to become politicians.
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WeirdRaptor: Personally, I've never seen why villains are popular.
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RogerRabbit: Maybe because the good guys are too perfect. Villans at least seem to connect with people.
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Littlefoot1616: Gotta agree with that. Sometimes, and particular in modern day circumstances, heroes are too perfect. Believe it or not, there is such a thing as a good villian. Sephiroth is an excellent example or Darth Vader. They are GOOD villians. Some bad guys in flicks and games can be really meagre and pathetic and there's just no satisfaction in watching them battle to the death with their nemesis.
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WeirdRaptor:As far as I'm concerned, anyone who calls heroes "too perfect" and villains the only ones who can "connect with the people" needs to have their head examined, because there's apparently very little going on up there.

I never root for villains. I only root for heroe,s even if they are, as you naively put it, "too perfect".
Feel free to continue the debate here! Just keep it friendly. :DD


Petrie.

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As far as I'm concerned, anyone who calls heroes "too perfect" and villains the only ones who can "connect with the people" needs to have their head examined, because there's apparently very little going on up there.

I'm willing to keep it civil....why is this so from your point of view?


WeirdRaptor

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why is this so from your point of view?
I don't root for evil. Just because a hero is better than the average gives you no right to root for a homocidal maniac, just because the hero is supposedly "too perfect". Excuse me for rooting for the side that' snot going to come into my apartment and cut my head off. Heroes are supposed to be good,otherwise they wouldn't be heroes, they'd just be more villains. So what if a villain is more charismatic, he or she is evil, and I hate evil people. Its as simple as that, and I think anyone who's more interested in evil than in good is a complete and utter moron.

You connected with Sauron, Sarumon, and Gollum more than Gandalf, Aragor, Sam, and Frodo.  :lol  Please...

The homunculi over the Elric Bros and Roy Mustang. Don't make me laugh.
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf


Petrie.

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Try Disney...the heroes are way too perfect...villians while fickle at least have some character, and actually seem human.  That's what I meant when I said some heroes are just too goody-good.

In the case of the villian, most people probably have done similar acts in their lifetime.  Nobody is perfect, nor should we pretend there is a "perfect someone" out there.  That's where the connection comes from; that doesn't mean they'll root for them.  People can connect with heroes too.  But to simply say that people have no connections with a villian's actions is false too.


WeirdRaptor

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Try Disney...the heroes are way too perfect...villians while fickle at least have some character, and actually seem human. That's what I meant when I said some heroes are just too goody-good.
I've tried Disney several times, and I have yet to prefer a single Disney villain over a single Disney hero. And no, they are not too perfect. And no, there is no such thing as a "too goody-goody" hero.
Aladdin's over-ambition and unwillingness to just tell the truth, and his being willing to break a major promise he made to someone hardly makes him too perfect, and Simba's insistance of running away from his problems also takes him out of the "too perfect" catagory. "The Little Mermaid's" naivety gets her into big trouble and nearly costs her father's, her lover's, and her's friends' lives. Please...
And no, the villains of Disney do nto seem more human. I can hardly call Jafar human. There are actually people out there who are like Aladdin, Oliver, or Simba, which makes them just as human.

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In the case of the villian, most people probably have done similar acts in their lifetime. Nobody is perfect, nor should we pretend there is a "perfect someone" out there. That's where the connection comes from; that doesn't mean they'll root for them. People can connect with heroes too. But to simply say that people have no connections with a villian's actions is false too.
So, you'd rather just connect with a character, even if the character is total scum, rather than be inspired to better yourself?
It doesn't matter if you've commited similar acts. That does not give you ground to connec with him or her. You'd connect with a person who pushed his brother off a cliff into a stampede below? You'd connect with a person who sent a young kid and his monkey a one-way to the polar ice caps? You'd connected with a person who pinned an innocent girl under him and then had his way with her? You'd connect with a person who tricked a young, grieving boy into exacting revenge for his brother by having him viciously murder a family of seven? You'd connect yourself with a person who pit two lovers up against each other, which results in one being killed and the other being in suspended animation? You'd connect yourself with a perso who pit two sides against eac other, hoping that they'd exterminate each other? You'd like to connect himself with a person like that, rather than the hero? I have to say that I'd sooner rot in hell before I connect with that.
The point og some heroes is the fact that they're ideal and are setting a good example. But I guess you'd rather feel sorry for the villain rather than stride to be more like a person that you should be adoring.
There are a very few villains I can connect with. The fact is, you can give a villain the most tragic backstory in the world, but he's going around raping, murdering, and committing genecide, I'm not going to connect with him.
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf


Littlefoot1616

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Whoa easy WR! No need to get personal about it mate. Each to their own.

But serously, heroes can't exist without a villian. There has to be something that upsets the natural balance of a system in order for a hero appearance to become necessary. Natural disasters are one thing but there are only so many of them. It's much easier to create characters that upset the balance rather than going from one natural disaster to the next all the time. Heroes and villians character traits are can be just as imaginative as each other but no one specifically mentioned that they wanted to be EVIL just like the villians we see onscreen. When I said that there is such a thing as a good villian, I meant in character portrayal. Not in how they go about destroying everything. How the character acts and behaves onscreen, not their motives or destructive tendancies...any upstanding, good-willed person would not see that as just cause to behave in the real world.



WeirdRaptor

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Whoa easy WR! No need to get personal about it mate. Each to their own.
In this case, not to each their own. If you prefer villains to heroes, what's to stop people from actually becoming like them?

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But serously, heroes can't exist without a villian.
And vice versa.

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There has to be something that upsets the natural balance of a system in order for a hero appearance to become necessary. Natural disasters are one thing but there are only so many of them. It's much easier to create characters that upset the balance rather than going from one natural disaster to the next all the time. Heroes and villians character traits are can be just as imaginative as each other but no one specifically mentioned that they wanted to be EVIL just like the villians we see onscreen. When I said that there is such a thing as a good villian, I meant in character portrayal.
]Good or bad character portrayal, it takes a very lousy hero for me to prefer the villain.

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Not in how they go about destroying everything. How the character acts and behaves onscreen, not their motives or destructive tendancies...any upstanding, good-willed person would not see that as just cause to behave in the real world.
I know that, but when you start to connect yourself with an villain, an impact does occurr, because books, movies and such do make a difference in people. Its one thing to understand a villain, but to go as far as finding them more interesting is flirting with dangerous ground, as far as I'm concerned.
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf


Petrie.

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And no, the villains of Disney do nto seem more human. I can hardly call Jafar human. There are actually people out there who are like Aladdin, Oliver, or Simba, which makes them just as human.

Lets wake up to reality here--there are people out there like Jafar, or Ursula, or Scar.  There are!!!  There are people who murder, who deceive, who are power hungry...and I really don't think they got all of these traits necessarily watching Disney films.  So yes, some people can connect to villans because that's the way they act, whether or not they're familiar with these films.  I can't make them change their ways.  That will be their call, but there are cetainly people in this world with twisted minds.

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So, you'd rather just connect with a character, even if the character is total scum, rather than be inspired to better yourself?

Not just connect.  A connection is something between yourself and the character, and like I said for both heroes and villians alike, it certainly is possible to connect to both in certain ways.  You can connect to it and say "yes I did things like that" and conclude, "That made people really happy," or "That really hurt Johnny" but the difference is a movie can't make that emotional choice.

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You'd connect with a person who pushed his brother off a cliff into a stampede below? You'd connect with a person who sent a young kid and his monkey a one-way to the polar ice caps? You'd connected with a person who pinned an innocent girl under him and then had his way......

No I wouldn't personally.  But guess what?  This world is full of people who would connect to all that.  That's reality.  Idealistically, this world would be full of good people, but least be realistic--not everyone lives the perfect life or makes the best decisions, due to so many factors.

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heroes can't exist without a villian.

Yes, very true.  If there is nobody to bounce off of and rate, so to speak, then we'd have no villians or heroes.


Littlefoot1616

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In this case, not to each their own. If you prefer villains to heroes, what's to stop people from actually becoming like them?

Whad'dya mean "not to each their own"? Of course it is. You can't determine for people what they decide or how they act. If a person choose to be how they are, no one can tell them otherwise. There are plenty of incident regarding people acting out the way they see characters on TV and games have as Roger said,

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But guess what? This world is full of people who would connect to all that. That's reality. Idealistically, this world would be full of good people, but least be realistic--not everyone lives the perfect life or makes the best decisions, due to so many factors.

A connection between a person and the characters they watch, the depth of the connection is what determines how they (can) behave. Everyone's heard about the Grand Theft Auto incident were kids went out and killed another kid coz they claimed to have gotten the idea from the game. In an ideal world, everyone will be happy and all smiles and everyone would get on with everyone without discrimination or prejudice. There are murderers, serial killers and psychos out there. Where they get the notion to perform such hoffric deeds is anyone's guess. Nothing can stop them from becoming like villians we see on the screen but having the ability to restrain yourself and being able to strongly distinguish the borderline between fantasy and reality is what seperates the just from the unjust.


Malte279

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Having just posted a long message in the other good / evil thread I'm not in a mood to write another long message just now. However there is one thing I want to be made clear:
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But serously, heroes can't exist without a villian.

And vice versa.
Is it indeed a vice versa matter? Could no villain exist without a hero? I'm refering to real live rather than Disney movies. I'm afraid that villains can exist very well without a hero against them so long they have victims and willful executors.


WeirdRaptor

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Lets wake up to reality here--there are people out there like Jafar, or Ursula, or Scar. There are!!! There are people who murder, who deceive, who are power hungry...and I really don't think they got all of these traits necessarily watching Disney films. So yes, some people can connect to villans because that's the way they act, whether or not they're familiar with these films. I can't make them change their ways. That will be their call, but there are cetainly people in this world with twisted minds.
Yeah, I know there are people out there like that, and its not a good thing, nor is it something people should connect themselves with. I have tasted reality, and I can say that villains do not seem more human, because there are also people out there like Aladdin and Simba.

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Not just connect. A connection is something between yourself and the character, and like I said for both heroes and villians alike, it certainly is possible to connect to both in certain ways. You can connect to it and say "yes I did things like that" and conclude, "That made people really happy," or "That really hurt Johnny" but the difference is a movie can't make that emotional choice.
We're talking about movies and the popularity of villains here.
And if someone does connect and says "I did something like that". Its not a good thing.

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No I wouldn't personally. But guess what? This world is full of people who would connect to all that. That's reality. Idealistically, this world would be full of good people, but least be realistic--not everyone lives the perfect life or makes the best decisions, due to so many factors.
That doesn't excuse their actions, nor make it right. Everyone has the choice of overcoming their problems, but some people lack the decency or strength to do it, and they become the problems of our world. That's what makes a villain. You can do the worse things to a person, and that wouldn't excuse them if they turned out bad later. Its choices entirely. Not outside factors.
And yes, I know that the world is full of people like that. I'm not stupid, and the fact that you're implying so is starting to piss me off.

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Yes, very true. If there is nobody to bounce off of and rate, so to speak, then we'd have no villians or heroes.
and that's not a good thing. So what is heroes can't exist without villains? That's not a good thing. The fact that they need to exist to cause a problem that causes someone to take action is a means of defending them? That's just more argument against liking villains!

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Whad'dya mean "not to each their own"? Of course it is. You can't determine for people what they decide or how they act. If a person choose to be how they are, no one can tell them otherwise. There are plenty of incident regarding people acting out the way they see characters on TV and games have as Roger said,
That's the problem. There are plenty of incidents concerning people acting out what they saw on TV, now imagine someon acting out what they saw a villain doing on TV. That's something that just can't be allowed.
And liking villains more just because they "seem" more human is just dumb. I also don't care what Roger said.

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A connection between a person and the characters they watch, the depth of the connection is what determines how they (can) behave.
Which is why there's a problem with connecting with villains.

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Everyone's heard about the Grand Theft Auto incident were kids went out and killed another kid coz they claimed to have gotten the idea from the game.
All the more in defense of my argument.

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In an ideal world, everyone will be happy and all smiles and everyone would get on with everyone without discrimination or prejudice. There are murderers, serial killers and psychos out there.
Thank you, Captain Obvious.

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Where they get the notion to perform such hoffric deeds is anyone's guess. Nothing can stop them from becoming like villians we see on the screen but having the ability to restrain yourself and being able to strongly distinguish the borderline between fantasy and reality is what seperates the just from the unjust.
Which is why becoming strongly connected with a villain is dangerous in itself.
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf


Petrie.

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We're on different agendas WR...I'm saying people can connect with villans because there are people like that, so we have something to create a fictional villan out of.  You're saying that all of that is morally wrong.  We're not even on the same subject.


action9000

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Thank you, Captain Obvious.
That remark was a bit unncessary, WR.  Littlefoot1616 was stating an important fact, and it fit in with his part of the discussion.

On this topic, there are a number of ways of looking at it.  Partially, it comes down to the meaning of "Connect."

Weirdraptor, you previously stated that it is morally wrong to Connect with a villian because a villian is a negative influence.  How then, do you define "connect"?  I suppose you mean that if a person feels for a villian, hoping he succeeds, that this is a negative feeling.  For the most part, I agree with you, as the procedures of many villians are destructive.  Such villians normally have "sinful" behaviour, doing unacceptable things for their glory.  

There are various kinds of villians.  The main type being discussed here is what I shall call the "evil" villian.  Examples of which include Jafar, Scar, Ursula, all previously mentioned in this topic.  The motives of an Evil villian are normally glory, money, or power.  Each villian needs some sort of scheme to obtain their goal and become what they want to become.  


Jafar obviously has respectable intelligence to work his way up to be the Sultan's advisor, not to mention his ability to scheme Aladdin to find the lamp for him, and the power to hypnotize the Sultan who has essentially become powerless to him.  

Despite his evil ways, I admire Jafar's intelligence and creative means to reach his goals.  As evil as his plans may be, we can still respect and understand him for what he is.  He has a witty personality (look at his relationship with Iago), a skilled disguise artist, he is quick-thinking, and is very dedicated to what he wants.  He is also highly skilled at getting on the right side of a person to earn their trust before smiting them down to meet his wishes.  

Overall, Jafar is a very effective, very interesting character, and I must say I enjoyed his presense on-screen.  Did I want him to win?  No.  Was I happy to see the city rejoice with his defeat?  Yes.  Did I understand Jafar's point of view, and admire the crafty work he put into his plans?  Yes.

RR, you are stating that some people can relate to villians because they may posess some similar traits themselves, correct?  I believe this is true, but I must stress the fact that just because a person has some of the qualities of a villian, that doesn't make them a villian.  Let's do some comparison shopping for a second:

Aladdin: Creative and intelligent (finding sneaky ways to get a bite to eat, or defeating Jafar)
Jafar: Creative and intelligent (disguising himself as a prisoner to free Aladdin, in order to obtain the lamp)

Simba (as an adult): A strong fighter
Scar: A strong fighter (as we see in the final battle between the two)

Arial (The Little Mermaid): Dedicated and willing to go to extremes for her desires (meeting the human prince by trading her voice to Ursula for human mortality).
Ursula: Dedicated and willing to go to extremes for her desires (taking control of Arial's voice, and eventually almost taking power away from Triton)


My point?  The villians are often fairly similar to the heroes.  The differences are simply the character's desires and goals.

It has also been stated below that heros tend to be too perfect.  I actually must disagree with this.  Heroes are rarely even close to perfect.  As it has been stated before, our heroes have gotten into troubles, such as:

Aladdin: His lies with Jasmine
Simba: Forgetting his destiny for so long, hiding from it instead of facing it.
Ariel: Letting her heart control her, when she had a loving home where she was.

Generally, the filmmakers allow the heroes a chance to narrowly escape, simply to continue the story.  Obviously, if they were to kill off our hero, the film would be at an end.  As a result, Aladdin is able to escape the lava flowes in the cave with his life and the lives of his friends (Abu and Carpet).  Simba is able to escape the desperate situation with Scar holding him over the cliff at the end, and Ariel and friends are able to defeat Ursula and live happily ever-after.  I must say, I prefer the perhaps unrealistic aspects of the hero getting away with countless life-threatening situations to the alternative.  

The villian rarely succeeds in a film.  Why?  The filmmakers understand that most audiences like to see a hero succeed.  It's a nice feeling to watch a happy ending.  There are a good share of films out there with twist endings or tragic endings, however even in those cases, the villian never truly wins.  Unfortunately, I cannot think of any truly tragic films with a hero and a villian at this moment, so I cannot list any examples.  

A hero needs to survive the film, at least to the point of defeating the villian in order for the film to have resolution.  If everything that happened during the film was in futility, the impact of the ending is reduced and all that time and effort spent during the film was wasted.  I would prefer the hero who is able to narrowly escape the desperate cirumstances put forth in front of him.

Another thought is that people can actually Learn from villians.  Observing a villian in action is a way to help us understand what they may be thinking, and how to protect ourselves from taking similar evil steps.  There is more that can be learned from watching evil, than evil itself.  We can learn that evil doesn't necessarily pay, even for the villian.  We can learn about how we can maybe change our lifestyles to perhaps be less evil.  The existance of evil can be looked at as history.  We can either learn from it (whichever side of it we want to learn) or choose to ignore its existance.  I for one, believe there is reasoning to learning from both the good and evil sides of our world to become what we truly want to be.


WeirdRaptor

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We're on different agendas WR...I'm saying people can connect with villans because there are people like that, so we have something to create a fictional villan out of. You're saying that all of that is morally wrong. We're not even on the same subject.
I know what subject you were on.  
And people who connect with them because they've done something similar and are similar to the villain should be put away.

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That remark was a bit unncessary, WR. Littlefoot1616 was stating an important fact, and it fit in with his part of the discussion.
A fact a four year old knows. Its not like I don't already know. I was under the impression I was being patronized.

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On this topic, there are a number of ways of looking at it. Partially, it comes down to the meaning of "Connect."

Weirdraptor, you previously stated that it is morally wrong to Connect with a villian because a villian is a negative influence. How then, do you define "connect"? I suppose you mean that if a person feels for a villian, hoping he succeeds, that this is a negative feeling. For the most part, I agree with you, as the procedures of many villians are destructive. Such villians normally have "sinful" behaviour, doing unacceptable things for their glory.

There are various kinds of villians. The main type being discussed here is what I shall call the "evil" villian. Examples of which include Jafar, Scar, Ursula, all previously mentioned in this topic. The motives of an Evil villian are normally glory, money, or power. Each villian needs some sort of scheme to obtain their goal and become what they want to become.


Jafar obviously has respectable intelligence to work his way up to be the Sultan's advisor, not to mention his ability to scheme Aladdin to find the lamp for him, and the power to hypnotize the Sultan who has essentially become powerless to him.

Despite his evil ways, I admire Jafar's intelligence and creative means to reach his goals. As evil as his plans may be, we can still respect and understand him for what he is. He has a witty personality (look at his relationship with Iago), a skilled disguise artist, he is quick-thinking, and is very dedicated to what he wants. He is also highly skilled at getting on the right side of a person to earn their trust before smiting them down to meet his wishes.

Overall, Jafar is a very effective, very interesting character, and I must say I enjoyed his presense on-screen. Did I want him to win? No. Was I happy to see the city rejoice with his defeat? Yes. Did I understand Jafar's point of view, and admire the crafty work he put into his plans? Yes.
Yes, he has some impressive skills, but since they are used for evil, they are not to be admired. If he had used them for good, I'd gladly say I admire those qualities. But the fact that he's about as evil as they come cancels out anything good about him. All his skills did were make him all the more a threat.

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RR, you are stating that some people can relate to villians because they may posess some similar traits themselves, correct? I believe this is true, but I must stress the fact that just because a person has some of the qualities of a villian, that doesn't make them a villian. Let's do some comparison shopping for a second:

Aladdin: Creative and intelligent (finding sneaky ways to get a bite to eat, or defeating Jafar)
Jafar: Creative and intelligent (disguising himself as a prisoner to free Aladdin, in order to obtain the lamp)

Simba (as an adult): A strong fighter
Scar: A strong fighter (as we see in the final battle between the two)

Arial (The Little Mermaid): Dedicated and willing to go to extremes for her desires (meeting the human prince by trading her voice to Ursula for human mortality).
Ursula: Dedicated and willing to go to extremes for her desires (taking control of Arial's voice, and eventually almost taking power away from Triton)


My point? The villians are often fairly similar to the heroes. The differences are simply the character's desires and goals.

It has also been stated below that heros tend to be too perfect. I actually must disagree with this. Heroes are rarely even close to perfect. As it has been stated before, our heroes have gotten into troubles, such as:

Aladdin: His lies with Jasmine
Simba: Forgetting his destiny for so long, hiding from it instead of facing it.
Ariel: Letting her heart control her, when she had a loving home where she was.
Well said. I never actually noticed the similarities before, of course, I never thought of the heroes and villains being so similar before.

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Generally, the filmmakers allow the heroes a chance to narrowly escape, simply to continue the story. Obviously, if they were to kill off our hero, the film would be at an end. As a result, Aladdin is able to escape the lava flowes in the cave with his life and the lives of his friends (Abu and Carpet). Simba is able to escape the desperate situation with Scar holding him over the cliff at the end, and Ariel and friends are able to defeat Ursula and live happily ever-after. I must say, I prefer the perhaps unrealistic aspects of the hero getting away with countless life-threatening situations to the alternative.

The villian rarely succeeds in a film. Why? The filmmakers understand that most audiences like to see a hero succeed. It's a nice feeling to watch a happy ending. There are a good share of films out there with twist endings or tragic endings, however even in those cases, the villian never truly wins. Unfortunately, I cannot think of any truly tragic films with a hero and a villian at this moment, so I cannot list any examples.

A hero needs to survive the film, at least to the point of defeating the villian in order for the film to have resolution. If everything that happened during the film was in futility, the impact of the ending is reduced and all that time and effort spent during the film was wasted. I would prefer the hero who is able to narrowly escape the desperate cirumstances put forth in front of him.

Another thought is that people can actually Learn from villians. Observing a villian in action is a way to help us understand what they may be thinking, and how to protect ourselves from taking similar evil steps. There is more that can be learned from watching evil, than evil itself. We can learn that evil doesn't necessarily pay, even for the villian. We can learn about how we can maybe change our lifestyles to perhaps be less evil. The existance of evil can be looked at as history. We can either learn from it (whichever side of it we want to learn) or choose to ignore its existance. I for one, believe there is reasoning to learning from both the good and evil sides of our world to become what we truly want to be.
If someone takes an interest in a villain for those reasons, I have no problem with it.

I have nothing to add to that, because you said it all, pretty much. Well put, in all in. Agreed with every point.

One thing: I'd still like someone to explain wherethey pulled the "the heroes are too perfect and the villains are more human" argument from.

**I just edited a quote tag to make it more readable** ~action9000
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf


Littlefoot1616

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WR, there's no need to get snappy. This is an open discussion and there is no need to get personal about it. The points I was making was related to the connection people may or like to have to characters they admire and see onscreen. The GTA example was just one of many. Kids went around pretending they were Power Rangers and beat seven shades outta other kids when they were at the top of kids entertainment.

Heroes need villians and they can be just as imaginative as each other and that's the beauty of character design. Villians can have just as much charisma as a hero. Sadly, if a kid or person sees the destructive nature of a villian as a way forward then that's there decision. But seriously, name a hero that doesn't have an arch nemesis. Villians play just a big a role to a story as the hero. You can't have one without the other.


WeirdRaptor

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WR, there's no need to get snappy. This is an open discussion and there is no need to get personal about it. The points I was making was related to the connection people may or like to have to characters they admire and see onscreen. The GTA example was just one of many. Kids went around pretending they were Power Rangers and beat seven shades outta other kids when they were at the top of kids entertainment.
True enough.
Sorry for being so vicious about this. I have no excuse. The thing is, I've been sick lately, and when I get sick, I get mean, and forget my manners, which is no excuse, so I'm sorry.

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Villians play just a big a role to a story as the hero. You can't have one without the other.
Unfortunately.
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf


Petrie.

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I've thought about this some more last night as I was trying to get my computer to reconnect to the internet...couldn't so I went to bed and just laid there, thinking how I'd reply to this one.

First off, I'm the one who made the "heros are too good" comment, so maybe I ought to answer that.  Live action is not something I watch a ton of, but animation is, and guess who the target audience is for most animation?  Not me.  :P:  In many samples the hero/good guy is usually perfect or really close.  Since a film can't show all emotions, then they show the traits the audience wants to see from a hero--the good ones, hence the good guy/hero is portrayed as gold.  That's where my comment comes from, but movies are not literal--they're fiction and scripted to be shown that way, but that's not reality.  When villans are scripted, you can sometimes see that the characteristics given to them which predominantly display characteristics of someone they would hate.  So perhaps, could heroes be too good in some films, never showing another side, and villans to evil, to never show their other side either?  Take out the scripted stops and you'd have characters mesh in the middle, both likeable and detestable at the same time.  Does that make sense to some here?


Here's the second thing I was thinking of last night: blending of the lines.  Who is a hero and who is a villan?  Can a hero be a villan, depending on who you ask, and a villan be a hero, depending on who you ask?  The answer is yes.  Take one person probably everyone knows..Osama Bin Laden.  To the Western world, he's the perfect villan.  To those who believe in him, he's their hero.  Go to certain sections of the world and you end up with conflicting answers.  So who's to really pass judgment on who is heroic and who isn't if people see both ways, even if you don't agree with the other side?


Malte279

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If it comes to heroes and villains I find characters of either sort very intriguing if they do have "flaws" in their usual behavior.
If we have a hero for example I prefer a hero who is not some kind of perfect, godlike superhuman. I want a character who can be tempted, a character who can be scared or even terrified, a character who can weep, a character who can forgive, a character who won't try to root out anything that is not as perfect as him or her.
I can't feel impressed for example by a character who fears nothing. That would be an unsensitive fool. Somebody who fears nothing at all cannot be brave; for to be brave you must overcome your fear. If you don't fear anything you are more like an emotionless machine without dreams. It is hard for me to consider such a thing a hero.
If it comes to villains, I consider it a good thing if they are not too obvious. A big, ugly, murdering villain is very easy to make up, it is easy to hate, it is easy not to think about at all. Somebody who seems harmless or even friendly, but makes sneaky plots is often more fascinating in my opinion. Somebody who is intelligent (possibly more than even the hero) and calculating. I think Alfred Hitchcock once said something like "the villain must be good (or attractive or something like that) for the movie to be good".
One think I also find really intriguing is to make the villain not some kind of unnatural demon but make it plain that the villain is the same "species" as the hero; that the villain could be good if only he wouldn't decide differently. There can be scenes in which the villain even ponders about doing what would be "good" just to decide for the "evil" option for some reason. This I think adds some tragedy to a villain and makes a villain a character to think about, not just a character to hate (and hate is often a rather villainous trait).

Do you really thinks that there must be heroes so a villain can exist (both in fiction and in real live)?


WeirdRaptor

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Roger:

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First off, I'm the one who made the "heros are too good" comment, so maybe I ought to answer that. Live action is not something I watch a ton of, but animation is, and guess who the target audience is for most animation? Not me.  In many samples the hero/good guy is usually perfect or really close. Since a film can't show all emotions, then they show the traits the audience wants to see from a hero--the good ones, hence the good guy/hero is portrayed as gold. That's where my comment comes from, but movies are not literal--they're fiction and scripted to be shown that way, but that's not reality. When villans are scripted, you can sometimes see that the characteristics given to them which predominantly display characteristics of someone they would hate. So perhaps, could heroes be too good in some films, never showing another side, and villans to evil, to never show their other side either? Take out the scripted stops and you'd have characters mesh in the middle, both likeable and detestable at the same time. Does that make sense to some here?
Um, that's not true at all. I've already pointed out that most animation heroes are not "too perfect". Give me a specific example, please. Because I've already pointed out that even in Disney films, the hero can actually help cause some of the trouble that the villain causes, and anime heroes are never perfect. I have yet to see an animated hero that I would call "gold". And heroes are to be admired, because they are good, despite having plenty of reason to give up and become a villain.  

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Here's the second thing I was thinking of last night: blending of the lines. Who is a hero and who is a villan? Can a hero be a villan, depending on who you ask, and a villan be a hero, depending on who you ask? The answer is yes. Take one person probably everyone knows..Osama Bin Laden. To the Western world, he's the perfect villan. To those who believe in him, he's their hero. Go to certain sections of the world and you end up with conflicting answers. So who's to really pass judgment on who is heroic and who isn't if people see both ways, even if you don't agree with the other side?
Eh? What the hell does that have to do with anything? In any case, a hero is a hero, and a villain is a villain, even if some people think of it backwards.

Malte:

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If it comes to heroes and villains I find characters of either sort very intriguing if they do have "flaws" in their usual behavior.
If we have a hero for example I prefer a hero who is not some kind of perfect, godlike superhuman. I want a character who can be tempted, a character who can be scared or even terrified, a character who can weep, a character who can forgive, a character who won't try to root out anything that is not as perfect as him or her.
Okay...I can't think of a hero who doesn't do those things, anyway, but okay.  

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I can't feel impressed for example by a character who fears nothing. That would be an unsensitive fool. Somebody who fears nothing at all cannot be brave; for to be brave you must overcome your fear. If you don't fear anything you are more like an emotionless machine without dreams. It is hard for me to consider such a thing a hero.
If it comes to villains, I consider it a good thing if they are not too obvious. A big, ugly, murdering villain is very easy to make up, it is easy to hate, it is easy not to think about at all. Somebody who seems harmless or even friendly, but makes sneaky plots is often more fascinating in my opinion. Somebody who is intelligent (possibly more than even the hero) and calculating. I think Alfred Hitchcock once said something like "the villain must be good (or attractive or something like that) for the movie to be good".
One think I also find really intriguing is to make the villain not some kind of unnatural demon but make it plain that the villain is the same "species" as the hero; that the villain could be good if only he wouldn't decide differently. There can be scenes in which the villain even ponders about doing what would be "good" just to decide for the "evil" option for some reason. This I think adds some tragedy to a villain and makes a villain a character to think about, not just a character to hate (and hate is often a rather villainous trait).
There are many villains like that. Yes, villains are characters to think about as well, when done right, but my point is that you should never prefer them to the hero. Where the hell all this other stuff is coming, I'd like to know.
I never said that a villain couldn't be observed, thought about, or looked into, but they are not more human than the hero (just the opposite), nor are they to be pitied.

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Do you really thinks that there must be heroes so a villain can exist (both in fiction and in real live)?
Well, if there were no heroes, there would only be the villains and the people they step on, so yes, a hero must exist for there to be villains.
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you." -Gandalf


action9000

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The quote:
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Do you really thinks that there must be heroes so a villain can exist (both in fiction and in real live)?
You responded with:
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Well, if there were no heroes, there would only be the villains and the people they step on, so yes, a hero must exist for there to be villains.

You are contradicting yourself here, WR.  You say that a hero must exist for there to be a villian, however this statement also says,
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If there were no heroes, there would only be Villians...
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It looks to me that a villian can Exist without someone to stop him.  Just because such a situation is rare in film, doesn't mean it's impossible.