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Disney Dissapointment

bestariana1girl

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Caution, this might be a bit of a rant  :lol :

So, along with being a huge fan of The Land Before Time,  I am ABSOLUTELY OBSESSED with The Lion King, and the sequels of course. My favorite character is Kiara from The Lion King II: Simba's Pride.

So, with this I want the best for my favorite Disney movie. Disney is creating a kids show "The Lion Guard" which will debut with a tv movie this November on Disney JR and surrounds the story of Kion (Kiara's younger brother/ second born cub). Although, I was hoping for more of a "3rd movie" ( technically TLK 1/2 is the third movie but I mean story wise). I want to know how Kiara & Kovu are, if they have cubs, how Kiara's reign goes as Queen.. but according to Jason Marsden, "The Circle Of Life" was Kovu's fate. So Kovu is dead? How? Why? This should be explained!

Also, they are starting to ruin what has already been done! This photo is from a cover of the upcoming Lion Guard book "I Just Can't Wait To Be Queen" and of course Kiara is on the front because she will be queen. BUT at the end of TLK 2 Kiara was a young adult and if you click here you can see that on the cover she is a cub. I'd like to recognize some things here, one the cover is not final but she is a cub. When Kiara was a cub, Kion wasn't alive; so are they changing the story? Also, Kiara doesn't have blue eyes, earrims, dark paws, a red-brown nose, and in the second movie as a CUB she didn't want to be queen anyway? Like she was going to do it anyway but she wasn't excited about it like Simba was as a cub, she didn't think it would be fun.

So are the changing the story? Could this ruin it? Why is Kovu gone? Is this all just to make the story more fitting for kids by getting rid of Kiara's mate? Why would they change Kiara's age & design?

In a way, I'm tired of all the recent Disney movies being more of a priority to Disney then some of the classics that are still adored by many today.
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Midnight

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I have no interest on that show whatsoever, but the only thing that I can conclude is that, since the show is going to air in Disney Junior, they went for the -far more profitable- cub thing... to match subjects, you know.

But yeah, these totally random and unexplainable changes (or "revisions" as they like to call them) have been a Disney tradition and trademark for a long time now... and yeah, sometimes it gets really silly (I'm still kinda wondering what they tried to accomplish with the third Lion King movie).

If this is exactly as you predict it will be, there will be enough plotholes to sneak an Aircraft Carrier thru them :lol



Ruby2

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I think loads of the rumors are false.  The Kovu fans would be very ticked to have them spend all that time on him yet to kill him off in a TV Serires.  (Though it may be that Kiara only THINKS he's dead (just like the Pride Lands thought Simba was dead for years.)

Also, there is another problem with Kiara being Queen.  Last I checked, the leader of the Pride Lands was Simba.

Does Simba step down or is he dead too?  If he has a second cub, that seems unlikely that he's dead.  But why then give control of the monarcy to his daughter?

(It is possible that Kovu apepars dead, Simba doesn't think so, goes looking for Kovu, and leaves Kiara as the temporary Queen of the Pride Lands.)



DarkHououmon

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From what I heard, in the TV show, Simba is still king, Nala is still queen, and Kovu and Kiara will appear, though I don't know what their roles will be. Other returning characters include Timon, Pumbaa, and Zazu. But since the show didn't come out yet, it's hard to tell really who will appear. As for Kovu possibly being dead, I heard nothing about that, honestly.


Nick22

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in the second film, Kovu had chance after chance after chance to prove himself as king material, and did nothing with any of those opportunities. therefore  ideally you'd look elsewhere if you were Simba for the guy who would replace you. lion prides are male dominated, and often have multiple males (in some cases as many as 7) leading them. lionesses take after the queen, so Kiara is inheriting from Nala, not Simba. Kiara moreover was nothing more than a selfish spoiled brat in the second film, who did whatever she wanted without any regards for the consequences of her actions, which in the case of running off after Kovu after his exile could have been (and should have been) severe- being disowned and disinherited, for starters. Romeo and Juliet moreover doesnt end well for the lovers , so its not a matter of whether something bad will happen to Kovu, Kiara or both, but rather WHEN it will happen, and what plans if any Simba and Nala have for that eventuality. if anything happens to Kovu, the pride is without any young males and is completely reliant on an aging Simba to keep it going. as for the show, its a kid show, logic and continuity often dont factor into those shows. there will be huge plotholes the size of Kenya, much like in the second film where they never exlained why the Outsiders were kicked out or what  they did to deserve being kicked out.
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DarkHououmon

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Quote from: Nick22,Aug 31 2015 on  05:41 PM
Kiara moreover was nothing more than a selfish spoiled brat in the second film, who did whatever she wanted without any regards for the consequences of her actions
I don't really agree with that character description. I always saw Kiara as someone who was just tired of being doted over so much. If you recall, Simba hardly let her do anything on her own. She was always babysat, alwalys followed. Even when she wanted a chance to prove that she could do things on her own without being spoiled (the hunt), Simba still sends Timon and Pumbaa after her, even after Kiara made him promise not to do that.

If anything, Kiara hates being spoiled and she's tired of being smothered. I actually find her to be pretty sympathetic in that regard. She's pretty much having her entire life controlled and everything handed to her on a silver plate. As such, I cannot really see her as selfish, and any spoiling that happens isn't really her fault and it's something that she was actively trying to stop.

I know Kiara is pretty hated among the TLK fandom, but I have a more positive view on her, and I do think that she gets more hate than she actually deserves.


Nick22

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Its one thing to rebel, Dark, another to  make yourself a liability. simba was trying to protect her, as he saw Zira making moves to make a second coup attempt on him. Kiara would likely be killed in any successful coup on Simba, as the pride taking over would doubtless go after any of the children of the deposed king. frankly I'm surprised zira didnt send Nuka or Vitani to make sure Kovu did his job as an assasin, and if necessary ' deal witth ' Kiara if she posed a problem. and then theres the matter of refusing to fight at the end. after all the buildup of mutual hatred , you handwave it away by refusing to fight? refusing to fight at that point isnt a option, the pride has been invaded and the invaders need to be driven back. Otherwise, the outsiders win by default.
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bestariana1girl

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I 100% agree with Dark.

And Ruby2, they aren't necessarily rumors. Also, Kiara is the future queen, she is the first born so she gets the "ruler" spot after Simba & Nala's reign.
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Nick22

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the problem with 2 was the lack of siblings for kiara, who could go to bat for her when dad was being possessive or controlling and tell him to back off and give her some space. Zira had 3 kids for goodness sakes, some balance was needed. kiara i think would have been much happier without having so much forced on her, and truthfully as a potential leader she fell far short of what the pride needs. a leader has to look at the big picture and think about things in the context of the pride and not based on his or her own needs. both kiara and Kovu only thought about themselves, and thats not something you want in leaders. you dont want people who will become liabilities when the chips are down. in monarchies the kings word is law, openly defying it, as Kiara did, will get you thrown out of the pride, or worse, cost you your head. yet  kiara was never punished for anything she did, and Kovu only got a very light slap on the wrist.  I'm not going to watch the show, Disbey should have left things alone after the first film.
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bestariana1girl

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How were they thinking only of themselves? At the end the stopped the fighting for peace because they had learned they were one, and Kiara tried to save Zira?
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Nick22

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running away with Kovu was a very selfish move, as Zira was making her move to attack the pridelands, and all hands were needed on deck.  She left her dad in the lurch, to go with a guy who had been trying to kill him the entire film, and who had just been revealed to be a lying, backstabbing sleazeball to everyone in the pride. once Zira invaded , not fighting went out the window, refusing to fight at that point would be considered akin to surrender, and truthfully Zira should have seen it as such. " You dont want to fight? Great! I win! you have until sundown to leave, all of you, all of you are banished forever from these lands. enjoy your second exile Simba.."
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Ruby2

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Also, Kovu's death would be a setback for continuing the monarchy unless Kiara remarries.  (Unless she is dumped as the heir and this new Kion takes her place.)  In short, it woud undo a part of what movie 2 was all about.

(It would be as pointless as if they were to bring Bron in in Great Longneck Migration yet kill him off at the end of Journey of the Brave, bringing this huge plot change in in 10 for nothing.)

As for Kovu, I'd hardly call him a villain or anything near it in movie 2.  If anything, he's an antihero.  Indeed, even Zira is more sympathetic than Scar.

Let's put it this way, Zira was likely fond of Scar over Mufasa (perhaps she didn't like Mufasa, as it would be niave to assume every lioness in the Pride Lands was a Mufasa fan.)

Anyway, when Simba first returns, reappearing after an absence that is hard to explain (he was supposed to be dead) and why did he run away?   (We the audience know, but nobody else but Scar and the hyenas did.)

Simba actually confesses to having a role in Mufasa's death right in front of everyone, and, when his own mother asks him if it's true, begging him to tell her it's not, he outright says it's true.

Then it looks like Scar is trying to finish him (which he is).  None of the other lions come to Simba's defense, just letting Scar corner the rightful heir on the edge of that edge.  It seems they believed that Simba deserved it.

However, Scar ran off his mouth, letting Simba know the truth.  Then Simba knocks over Scar and makes him admit his guilt, which he does.  Then, the lionesses aid him.  (They weren't too fond of Scar anyway.)

Later, Scar is kicked by Simba, off the cliff, in sef-defense of course, but Scar survives the fall, but is kiled by his own henchmen.  

However, it is unlikely anyone but the hyenas knew that Scar didn't die by Simba's hand.

Thus, whie those who hated Scar would believe Scar's confession over Simba's, those who were unsure or were pro-Scar would think that Simba caused his father's death, ran away, came back and tried to depose Scar, confessed to killing Mufasa, attacked Scar and forced a false confession out of him in his brother's death, and then murdered Scar so that he could take the throne.

And, of course, Simba kicked them out.  So Zira may truly have believed Simba to be guilty of both Mufasa's and Scar's deaths and that he wasn't worthy to be king of Pride Rock.

Also, Scar had picked Kovu was his heir.  If anything, Zira's main flaw is how devoted she is to Scar.  In fact, her last words "This is for you Scar!" confirm it.  

Indeed, she tries to raise the appointed heir, Kovu, and neglects Nunca, and it's clear that Nunca is so upset that he's almost ready to have history repeat itself (i.e. him kill his brother to seize power just like Scar did with Mufasa.)

However, Kovu, despite hearing how bad Simba has been his whole life, actually decides to hear Simba out on the Scar thing, rather than killing Simba when alone.  (Perhaps he DID plan to kill Simba if Simba had admitted true guilt (though, admittedly, that's not a bad trait), prompting Zira to act herself.

Nuncas ends up dying, and, ironically, his death turns her against Kovu and pro-Nunca, giving him more attention in death than she had his entire life.  

She attacks Kovu, giving him a scar, and blames him for Nunca's death.  Indeed, she practically disowns him.

Kovu actually goes back to Simba, even though he's got to know that Simba could well have him executed on the spot for, as it would appear to Simba, attempted murder of the king of Pride Rock.  

After he leaves and Kiara comes to him, I think he believes that neither Simba nor Zira are going to back down and so the best bet for them is to run off and form a priide of their own.   It's a wrong assessment, but Kovu isn't perfect.

Anyway, we can see how fanatical Zira is when she threatens to kill Vitani merely for not fighting, cuasing her whole group to turn on her.

Kovu was pretty good to get past Zira's brainwashing.  Not everyone could do that.  So don't call him a poor leader.




Nick22

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Starting a new pride however takes years. first and foremost, you need a place to live, a place where any cubs you might have could be raised in safety, and one with plenty of food and  water, and which ISN'T already home to an existing pride. Otherwise you're wandering around the savannah scraping out a living for the rest of your days. Being picked as a heir isnt the same as being born the heir, as any male  with a blood claim to the throne  e.g simbas son, would trump both Kovus claim and Kiaras, since again males trump females in lion prides. Vitani was completely overlooked by Zira and ironically this makes her a far more interesting character than Kiara , since we know so little about her. Giving Vitani a mate would force Kovu and kiara to share., Kiara with Vitani and Kovu with Vitanis mate. Mufasa didnt share with Scar, rightly or wrongly, because he didnt trust him. Sharing actually takes place far more often in lion prides than having a single male alpha. It would have been more interesting for Kovu to reject kiara  after she runs off to be with him and tell her to go back home and forget about him, and confess that pretty much everything hes done with her has been a lie, a con so he could kill Simba. this would create great tension between them and be obviously extremely hurtful to kiara. love , to endure must endure great trials, and teenage love is almost never wise, or patient. its why Romeo and Juliet are called star-crossed.
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DarkHououmon

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I do have to agree with Ruby2. Kovu does have some qualities that would be good for a leader. Being able to pull himself out of being manipulated (sure it took a while, but he still manages to pull through), returning back to Pride Rock after Simba thinks he betrayed him to try to explain himself, and when Simba does punish him, he does not fight back and simply accepts it. In this way, Kovu shows that he is independently minded and able to think for himself, yet at the same time knows when to back down and accept when something is his fault (it's likely he didn't fight back because he felt he deserved the punishment for being part of the plan to begin with). And later on, he even decides to help stop the war despite his unsureness of it even working.

In fact, Kovu seems to be better than Simba when it comes to responsibility. Back in the first movie, Simba ran away and moves in with Timon and Pumbaa and adapts a care-free life. Sure you can't blame him for not knowing that his pride was in danger. There was no way he could have known. But when his childhood friend comes back and begs him to return to help, what does Simba do? Turn her away and refuse to come back. Even when told there was "no food and no water", he is still all "I cannot do anything", all because he is still guilt-ridden over his father's death. He is perfectly willing to let everyone die so he wouldn't have to face his past. It takes Mufasa coming down from the heavens to make him even consider going back.

Kovu on the other hand only needs a short talk with Kiara before he goes back. And Kiara, she's also better than Simba in this regard because she immediately decides that they have to stop the war. She could have run off with Kovu, but she is the one who decides they should help. Had she been just a "selfish brat", she would have just turned and fled with Kovu and let the prides fight. Instead, she and Kovu bravely march in the middle of the fight and stop it, risking getting hurt themselves in the process.

Another thing to point out is that Kiara showed more compassion towards the enemy than Simba did. In the first movie, Simba may not have meant to kill Scar, but he certainly did nothing to stop the hyenas from killing him. Kiara? Despite the fact that Zira did try to kill her and her entirely family, she still tries to save her anyway. Kiara had no reason to try to save Zira and doing so could have caused her to fall to her death anyway, not to mention Zira does try to slash her in the process. Kiara saving Zira at this point couldn't have been a selfish "think only of myself" act, as it was inconvenient of Kiara to try to save Zira at all, yet she still tried.

A lot of people harp on Kiara for how she acts, but a lot of that is because of Simba himself. He is too protective of her, more so than Mufasa was of Simba, which causes her to lash out not because she's selfish but because she is sick of having all that attention smothered on her, not allowing her any freedom, which is udnerstandable. Simba's overprotectiveness is also what causes Kiara to suck at hunting. In short, Simba brought down his own daughter.

And while I'm on the topic of Kiara, another thing worth mentioning is that while Kiara is similar to young Simba, one area they differ is how they view their future. While Simba is perfectly willing to embrace the role of prince and flaunt that title, Kiara doesn't want to be princess because she doesn't want to be seen as "just a title". Indeed, the song We Are One has a line that hints that Kiara simply doesn't want to be seen as just what her title is, but instead prefers to be seen as who she is. She doesn't want to use her title to get whatever she wants to; she would rather do it by her own merits. And let's not forget how selfish Simba is compared to Kiara. People say that Kiara is selfish, but Simba was even more so in this regard. Simba was power hungry as a cub as indicated by Just Can't Wait To Be King song, where he blatantly tells Zazu just how he was going to use his power when he gets older. Kiara, on the other hand, lacks this power hungry nature of her father and would rather be treated like everyone else. She does not want to be entitled or treated special just because of her title, whereas Simba actually went as far as tell Zazu that he should listen to him just because he was the prince.

All in all, I think that both Kiara and Kovu have some positive traits and aren't nearly as bad as a lot of people claim that they are. They aren't perfect, but no character is.


Nick22

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what Kiara did however by running off, could be classed as disloyalty or worse, as treason.. there are consequences for such actions, sometimes severe and a leader takes responsibility for their actions. Kiara should have known by running away, she was throwing away her inheritance, in effect saying " I quit". thats a decision you dont get to undo, and her father would likely not let her return with Kovu, since he is facing death if he shows up again.she convinced Kovu FAR too easily, they didnt even fight or have Kovu reveal his past misdeeds. she should have been forced to plead and beg him to come back, as Nala did to Simba. and even then, both knew that once the battle was over, both would be called on the carpet for their actions. refusing to fight never really works, prides are far too territorial for that. and zira was far too fanatical to accept a refusal to fight, indeed she would have seen it as a surrender, and gloated about it.
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bestariana1girl

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What if as a young adult your father treated you like you couldn't handle yourself and took away the one you love most? Running away might not have been the most loyal move but it was the one to make her heart happy again by finding Kovu.
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Nick22

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in that case your dad is protecting you from your own ignorance and naivete, and protecting you from someone he knows at that point to be unreliable. a king cant afford to have people around he does not trust. too much risk of them trying to overthrow him.suppose Kovu had succeeded in killing Simba, do you think Kiara still falls in love with him? I say no, because then Zira would be running things and picking out another lioness for Kovu to be with.-after all the pride has several lionesses. kiara should have known by running away that she was breaking with her father forever, that she would never be allowed back into the pride and that it would be a lot of hard work to start a new pride, even if she and kovu managed to make it work as a couple.
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Nahla

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Mind if I have my say?

In my opinion, The Lion King 2 was a terrible letdown compared to the original. I don't hate it both I don't find it as enjoyable either.

Also at the end of the first movie, Simba and Nala had a cub. The start of TLK we meet Kiara, a different cub with a different ceremony. What happened to the first cub? Did they forgot it existed or something?

Kiara to me seemed really naive and trusting random strangers way to quickly, what a  coincidence the stranger you met once in your childhood and from the pride yours does not trust happened to be there when you're trapped in a fire that came from nowhere, totally not related. Nope.

You know the saying, they kiss you before they screw you. Just because someone is nice, doesn't mean you should trust them. But it's a family movie with young children watching so really should not expect logic.

In way, I'm kinda Kiara with my father being overprotective about who I hang out with even know I'm an adult now everytime I meet someone new he has to meet them to to make sure I'm hanging out with 'the right people'. Heck, I wasn't even allowed to be alone with a boy until I was 17 and only if my father approved of him. Annoying? Yes very, but he is just trying to protect me from making a horrible mistake. I'll rather an overprotective father who does that, then one who dares not care what I do and in the end I'm the one who will suffer from it due to my parents not being parents and teaching me better. Well mostly now they let me make my own choices, but when it comes to choosing my friends, they still treat me like a child.

To me, Kiara was being a bit selfish. Something did not go her way so she ran away, abandoning her pride and her family even though they were just trying to protect her, and telling Simba "You'll never be Mufasa!" seemed a little harsh to me, even Simba looked stunned.

And it is stated, Kovu is not Scar's son. So where did he come from? If he was born in the Pridelands (stated "he was the last born before you exiled us to the outlands!") then who else could the father be? Scar was the only male at that time before Simba took over. And that also brings up the question of Nala's father....


As for The Lion Guard, I care less about it. To me it seems more like a spin-off series then continue on the actual movies, I consider it more AU then anything.


bestariana1girl

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I see where you all are coming from, I just think she isn't as selfish as we made her out to be I mean she ran away because she was worried about Lovu but when she met up with Kovu again she even said "Kovu, we have to go back".
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DarkHououmon

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Personally, I think that Simba's refusal to go back when Nala pleads him for help, thus dooming everyone in the pride to die, just because he felt guilty was more selfish than anything Kiara or Kovu did, and certainly more so than Kiara running off after Kovu's banishment. Sure it wasn't wise and sure there was a battle afterwards, but she wouldn't have known of the incoming threat.

Simba on the other hand was specifically told by Nala just how bad off they were and how they were going to starve if he didn't do something. Yet despite knowing, he still refuses to help. By doing so, he was pretty much willing to let his old family die just so he could escape having to deal with the past. Now that's what I'd call selfish. Yes you can say that Simba thinking he killed his father was bad and that he was traumatized, but there is a clear difference between refusing to go back because he's depressed and willing to let everyone die because he is depressed. Sad or not, this act was selfish as Simba was putting himself above his old family.

Kovu and Kiara, on the other hand, as pointed out, do go back to stop the war instead of running off and starting their own pride. And they didn't stay away for months and years just because of feeling depressed. They were only gone for a few hours and they returned (with Kiara herself being the one to initiate this return). By going back to the pride instead of leaving to begin their own, they show they were more selfless than Simba had been in the previous movie (who needed his ghost dad to come down and tell him to go back instead of his best friend who went into more detail about how awful their home had gotten).

Another thing I forgot to point out before is that Kovu and Kiara aren't even fully grown. They're still teenagers, and thus their personalities aren't set in stone yet. We don't know just how they will be as full grown adults. For all we know, they would make wonderful leaders.

Personally I think they'd make pretty good leaders, especially since, in their teenage years, they displayed more responsibility and selflessness than Simba did as a full grown adult.