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Operation Marketgarden

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For this discussion I would like if we would take sides for this topic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden Operation Marketgarden was intended to end WWII by christmas 1944 as we all know it didn't happen. I'm wanting us to have a debate on the taticts of both side what worked and what didn't work.
some links to a show about the battle part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_KbbubebIg part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uty0tUmoUAo part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E74fZkuDFsI part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGGZM4DUyYM part 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KjtksJcstU So do any one think it would have worked?


Malte279

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One Bridge too far and parachutists too far from the bridge to exploit the element of surprise...
I have not yet seen the Youtube videos you mentioned so what I can say on the matter is mostly based on what information I gathered from a couple of books I have on my boards.
The plan by itself made sense in so far as it was to spare the allied troops the later difficult crossing of the Rhine and possibly put a quick end to the war in a "Blitzkrieg" kind of manner.
With the benefit of hindsight it is always easy to say that it could have never worked. However, there were warnings before the start of the operation already, that the planning was too optimistic not taking the numerous possibilities of delays and problems into account which ultimately led to the defeat at Arnhem. Altogether there were not even nearly as many problems as could have been (e.g. the capturing of several bridges before they could be destroyed).
At least to some degree I think the operation was meant (though he would have been the last to admit it) to satisfy the ego of Bernard Law Montgomery who was not exactly happy about the secondary role he had played since Dwight D. Eisenhower had been named supreme commander of the allied forces in Europe. "Monty" meant to have a spectacular success and this eagerness for glory is what made him discard the doubts not only of his subordinates (Frederick Browning, commander of the first allied airborne army had previously stated that he thought they were going "one bridge to far" (hence the title of the later book and movie)), but also of his superior Eisenhower. Warnings of the presence of the 9. SS Panzerdivision which had been sent to London by members of the Dutch RĂˆsistance were vehemently ignored by Montgomery who wouldn't have any changes done to his plan. The inflexibility of the plan in combination with the rather high aim (not impossible to achieve I think but very difficult) and the unwillingness to react to the known presence of significant forces in the area all contributed to the failure of the operation. Montgomery was certainly not the first commander whose ambitions caused a defeat, but he was in a position to walk away fairly unscathed.
It is remarkable and possibly exemplary for his ego that in his long book "A history of Warfare" Montgomery repeatedly points to the battle of El Alamein with such strange thoughts as pointing out that the battle started almost on the same day (23rd October 1942) as the battle of Trafalgar (21st October 1805) to which he compares his own victory though there is very little in common between the two battles. My impression is that he really hoped to be compared to Lord Nelson who is to this day really revered in England. Operation Market Garden is not even hinted at with a single word in the entire long book.
There is one anecdote according to which Alan Brooke, the chief of the British imperial general staff once remarked to King George VI. that Montgomery was "a very good soldier, but I think he is after my job."
"I thought," the king replied after a moment's reflection, "that he was after mine!"


Malte279

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The consequences of a different outcome of Operation Market Garden would have been far beyond the battle field or even that war. Assume for a moment that everything had worked out as planned and war in Europe would have been ended by October or November 1944. Millions of lives would have been saved of course, but what else would have happened? With the Soviet troops being still considerably farther east at that time than they were at the end of the war in Europe in May 1945. Therefore it is not likely that (if the British and Americans had captured Berlin in fall 1944) they would have been ready to make large territorial / influence sphere concessions to the Soviet Union (Poland, Czecheslovakia etc.). But would Stalin, whose country had suffered by far worse than England or the US, if suffering in war can be compared, have settled for a peace that would have not granted the Soviet Union significant gains? I don't think so.
There was a certain risk at the end of WW2 that the war might have been continued right away between the Soviet Union on the one and the other allies on the other side. In fact Winston Churchill had a readymade plan for an attack on the Soviet Union to be launched on June 1st 1945. The very name of that project (Codenamed "Operation Unthinkable") suggests that Churchill didn't really want to attack the Soviet Union, but the thought was there and might have taken more concrete forms had the prognosis for "operation unthinkable" not been extremely negative about any chance of success. It is quite likely that similar plans existed in the Soviet Union as well, though I don't think official documents have been released yet (operation unthinkable was not released before 1998). With the dropping of the atomic bomb still a matter of the future in fall 1944 (would they have ever been dropped if the European war had ended at that time allowing for an earlier focus on the Pacific theater?) the bomb would not have worked as a deterrence from war at that time.
All this is very speculative and as a scientist one should not speculate too much, but is it possible that a quick allied victory caused by a victory at Arnhem might have triggered the next act of a much longer continuation of WW2?

PS: History has rarely been a topic in the GOF (outside the history quiz games) so far. I must say I would certainly not object to any more threads about historical events if you are interested in them.


f-22 "raptor" ace

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The main thing the allies had against them was the time it took to get it together. For D-Day it took months to plan where as Market garden had a few days. During D-Day Britsh soidlers would follow orders from american officers if they ever linked up. For Market garden the britsh 30 corps down right refused orders to advance from an American officer. There was also the fact that 30 corp had to drive up a one lane highway. the Germans realised this and just shelled the highway and if the 30 corp tanks went off the road they would just bog down in the soft grass and be an even bigger target for German soilders armed with panzerfausts which litteraly means Tank Fist. Also the Britsh 1st airborne was not trained in house to house fighting and they didn't have urban camo. tanks and paratroopers don't mix. I beleive "Monty" was trying to get more attention than Patton. The MP-40 which was the main weapon used by the German infantry was in some ways better than the sten SMG. In additon to the 9th and 10th SS panzer divisions there were also 3,000 troops resting in Arnhem which in all had a few tanks,armoured cars, and artillery pieces which were enough to stop the Allies in their path. And yet Monty said it was 90% sucessful. 90%? You call taking 12,000 men into Arnhem and comming out with less than 2,000 successful? A Bridge Too Far is a good movie depecting the battle.


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The battle is a reason why the qoute "always expect the unexpected' should always be listened to.



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I recently put the book A Bridge Too Far by Cornelious Ryan on hold at the library.


f-22 "raptor" ace

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I decided to bring this topic back into the light.

The Allies were cocky to say that Germany was all but defeated whenthe operation started.