The Gang of Five
The forum will have some maintenance done in the next couple of months. We have also made a decision concerning AI art in the art section.


Please see this post for more details.

The Ultimate Question for Columbus Day

Malte279

  • The Circle
  • The Gang of Five
  • *
    • Posts: 15608
    • View Profile
    • http://www.ineinemlandvorunsererzeit.de.vu
I am not without humor, but I do have my reasons not to be very funny about that matter.
The unimpeacheable facts on which I based a very high likelihood for a rediscovery of America (on an earlier occasion you already said that this was not an absolute statement) were:
1. Fall of Constantinople 1453 making the exploration of new trade routes possible.
2. The time of the passing from middle ages to early modern age as an era in which there was a spirit for new experiments and approaches to things made possible among other by the invention of the printing press.

These are the two in the message preceding the one in which the unimpeacheacheable statement was posted.
In a later post there was the statement about the last successful crusade being long gone and the participating nations being much more set against each other at the time of Colon's voyages making cooperation in a crusade nearly impossible.

Now as for the term crusade, that one can be far stretched (as demonstrated by late president G. W. Bush) and it has been far stretched quite frequently in history as it came as a convenient excuse for all kind of power hungry land or wealth grabbing from anyone who did not share the faith of the "crusaders". Domestic wars on "heretics" involving no troops but the ones from the country where the war was fought (except perhaps for some mercenaries) have been labeled "crusades" if only one could get the pope to give his blessings.
The so called "crusades" of the Teutonic knights against the "heathens" in today's Poland and the Baltic countries were to a degree raids on large scale with the invaders not leaving and even though this is a matter of debate I don't think one can easily discredit claims that there is some root there for the disastrous German obsession with "Lebensraum im Osten" which brought so much misery in 20th century.
Now of course similar things can be said about most crusades but there the idea of getting access to the holy shrines in Jerusalem played at least a role that should not be negated and the early crusades to the "holy land" also involved more nations while the campaigns in the Baltic were primarily a German endeavor.
By 1410 the Teutonic knights had been whipped at Tannenberg and though they clung on to territories for a long while to come there was not much of the crusade idea about their long time raid.
Another war that has been called a crusade was that against the Hussites in Bohemia and indeed there were troops from several countries involved there but that crusade can hardly be labeled a success seeing that what ultimately limited the Hussites direct influence were their inner quarrels rather than the frequently defeated armies of foreign crusaders.
Labeling the battle of Lepanto 1571 a crusade is also very questionable at best. Granted there was the pope's blessing (as there was in so many wars) and granted there were apart from Spain with its control of most of Italy at the time involved alongside the mortal enemies of Venice, Genoa, and also mercenaries from other countries. But seeing that this "holy league" came in a primarily defensive fashion. Had the Ottoman fleet not been destroyed there was a realistic risk of an Ottoman invasion of Italy and beyond. After the victory the "holy league" effectively disassembled but on paper so I don't really see the connection with the original crusades.
We haven't really set up our definition of crusade here. Is a papal blessing and reference to it as a crusade sufficient? Does it have to involve several nations?
In any case the kind of crusade that would "matter" in the context of reopening overland trade routes to India in Colon's time would have had to be a really large scale invasion of an empire which at that time was among the most powerful in the world. So whatever our definition of "crusade" may be only such a huge scale invasion of the Ottoman Empire would be important in the context of this discussion. Seeing the empires dealing mainly with their own affairs (e.g. not much support for the Austrians when Vienna was besieged in 1529 and the failure of the holy league to press their advantage after the battle of Lepanto (admittedly 80 years after Colon)) I think that the possibility of the kind of crusade that would have reopened a land route to India was extremely limited at best.


Noname

  • The Gang of Five
  • *
    • Posts: 13211
    • View Profile
    • http://z6.invisionfree.com/Fantasy_RP_Board/index.php?act=idx
I agree that Lepanto was not a crusade, except in the very loosest definition of the term.

As for the "unimpeachable" sections...

1. Fall of Constantinople 1453 making the exploration of new trade routes possible.

Technically, it had always been possible to explore for new trade routes, but the fall of Constantinople simply made it much more important to do so.  

2. The time of the passing from middle ages to early modern age as an era in which there was a spirit for new experiments and approaches to things made possible among other by the invention of the printing press.

This is also true, but it doesn't automatically mean that a ship or fleet will sail west into the Atlantic Ocean. Keep in mind that a similar voyage had already been made when neither conditions 1 nor 2 were in place (Leif Erikson's voyage.)

So basically, you make a good case for the likelihood of someone like Columbus going out there, BUT, it was not the only way things could have turned out. Even if the Ottomans had but concluded a trade deal with the west, # 1 ceases to be a major concern. We also need to consider a # 3, that the Portugese already HAD a route to India that was overseas. In 1488, Bartholomew Dias had sailed around the Cape of Good Hope, thus circumventing Ottoman controlled territory.

In other words, the necessity for getting around the Ottomans was already done. Totally. It must also be remembered that Columbus had a very, very hard time getting people to support his mission. Now, think about that. If so many people were opposed to such an expedition in that time, it must have meant they must have either thought his plans were doomed to failure, were unnecessary, or both.

Of course, Columbus proved them wrong, but the fact that so few people were on board with his plan in his lifetime is indicative of the lack of necessity of crossing the Atlantic in his day. The funny thing was, Columbus's plans were based on a miscalculation:

(from Wikipedia)

"Columbus believed the (incorrect) calculations of Marinus of Tyre, putting the landmass at 225 degrees, leaving only 135 degrees of water. Moreover, Columbus believed that one degree represented a shorter distance on the Earth's surface than was actually the case. Finally, he read maps as if the distances were calculated in Italian miles (1,238 meters). Accepting the length of a degree to be 56⅔ miles, from the writings of Alfraganus, he therefore calculated the circumference of the Earth as 25,255 kilometers at most, and the distance from the Canary Islands to Japan as 3,000 Italian miles (3,700 km, or 2,300 statute miles). Columbus did not realize Alfraganus used the much longer Arabic mile (about 1,830 m)."

"The true circumference of the Earth is about 40,000 km (25,000 mi), a figure established by Eratosthenes in the second century BC and the distance from the Canary Islands to Japan 19,600 km (12,200 mi). No ship that was readily available in the 15th century could carry enough food and fresh water for such a journey. Most European sailors and navigators concluded, probably correctly, that sailors undertaking a westward voyage from Europe to Asia non-stop would die of thirst or starvation long before reaching their destination. Catholic Monarchs, however, having completed an expensive war in the Iberian Peninsula, were desperate for a competitive edge over other European countries in trade with the East Indies. Columbus promised such an advantage."

Funny how history works, isn't it?


Malte279

  • The Circle
  • The Gang of Five
  • *
    • Posts: 15608
    • View Profile
    • http://www.ineinemlandvorunsererzeit.de.vu
Quote
Technically, it had always been possible to explore for new trade routes, but the fall of Constantinople simply made it much more important to do so.
Perfectly true. My point about Constantinople's fall was not that it made the finding of alternate trade routes possible but rather made them a necessity.
There can be no absolute certainty when speculating about histories might have beens so all that this is about is an assessment on "likelihoods". Of course the effects of the new readiness to try new ways and come up with new thoughts did not make the searching for a westward route with all the consequences a necessity, but it did make such research and its continuation a more likely scenario than the total abandoning of it for a very long time. I am not saying that had Colon's voyage failed the discoveries would have still been made in a matter of years, but I consider it more likely than not that within a few decades the discoveries are more likely than not to have been made even in case of a failure of Colon. I will never deny the possibility of other scenarios but they would seem less likely to.
In case of a total focus on the trade routes to India around Africa the Ottoman empire still would have had the possibility to bar that route as well if effort had been put into this. After all the territory of the Ottoman Empire at a time not long after Colon's voyages included the shores of the red sea as well as a long section of coast on the Persian gulf. Had they meant "business" about cutting the business of the European trade routes around Africa they would have been in a good position to do so (with their harbors so much farther away from the "theater of war" a naval war against the Ottomans in the Arabian sea would have been extremely difficult to conduct under 16th century conditions. Perhaps the increased interest in the "West Indies" and the Americas prevented such a war in the Arabian sea from taking shape as the focus of attention may have shifted a bit even though India remained of great importance.
Much of this is speculative and over here professors of history are extremely (too extremely sometimes I think) posed against any such hypothetical scenarios. I agree that in any case it is interesting and fun to think them through.


Noname

  • The Gang of Five
  • *
    • Posts: 13211
    • View Profile
    • http://z6.invisionfree.com/Fantasy_RP_Board/index.php?act=idx
Quote
A naval war against the Ottomans in the Arabian sea would have been extremely difficult to conduct under 16th century conditions.

Well, the Portugese DID rule a mercantile empire in India, parts of Africa, Sri Lanka, and many other islands. The battle of Diu (1509) proves that not only were European powers capable of fighting and winning in "Islamic waters", but they were able to hold down trading routes as well... and the Ottomans had the Egyptians, Venetians, AND the Christian state of Ragusa on their side and still lost that battle.

In other words, they DID conduct that war... and won it!  :lol

It wasn't so hard... even tiny Portugal could do it. One of the very smallest of countries was able to take on a huge empire and win again and again.

Although later wars saw a few wins for the Ottoman side, they were unable to dislodge the Portuguese... who were later supplanted by other European powers in that area.


Malte279

  • The Circle
  • The Gang of Five
  • *
    • Posts: 15608
    • View Profile
    • http://www.ineinemlandvorunsererzeit.de.vu
You do have a good point about the battle of Diu showing that a naval victory under such circumstances was possible.
On the other hand it was a rather "short term war" conducted under these difficult conditions and the efforts (the quality of the fleet that is) put in from the Ottoman side are not really comparable with the state in the Mediterranean. The next war between Ottomans and Portuguese fought in that region was already fought under very different conditions with the Portuguese (whose status at that time could not be reduced to their landmass only) having captured a number of nearby ports so they were no longer stretching their supply lines and lines of retreat (if repairs were necessary) as they did in the war of 1509.
Even without the interruption of the trade route the hope of gaining an advantage over the competitors by finding new and shorter trade routes seems more likely than not as a motivator of continuing the exploration to the west in the not too distant future even if Colon would have failed.


aabicus (LettuceBacon&Tomato)

  • Member+
  • Littlefoot
  • *
    • Posts: 8266
  • Rations
    • View Profile
    • aabicus.com
Here you go. These people represent my opinion on this 'holiday.' I don't care how much good stuff he did (for white European history).


Noname

  • The Gang of Five
  • *
    • Posts: 13211
    • View Profile
    • http://z6.invisionfree.com/Fantasy_RP_Board/index.php?act=idx
Quote
Even without the interruption of the trade route the hope of gaining an advantage over the competitors by finding new and shorter trade routes seems more likely than not as a motivator of continuing the exploration to the west in the not too distant future even if Colon would have failed.

We have no real way of knowing this. As it was, most people correctly though that the world's circumference was way larger than Columbus thought it was; he only thought that he could even survive such a westward voyage because he was under the idea that the world had a circumference that was thousands of kilometers smaller than it really was. The prevailing opinion of the time was that such a voyage would not only not lead them to Asia, but that their ships and crews would starve to death long before reaching land.

Now, had ships improved to the point that they could undertake such a voyage, that is another story. I suppose it is worth researching when a ship could make a voyage across the world and survive comfortably; even in Magellan's time, his ships and crews nearly all starved to death and only one of five ships even survived the trip...