The Gang of Five
Beyond the Mysterious Beyond => The Arts => Attic Treasures => Topic started by: WeirdRaptor on October 31, 2004, 04:57:02 AM
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If so, what?
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I read the lord of the rings and the Hobbit. I also read some books about Tolkien's works that were largely based on information provided by Tolkien. I didn't read the Silmarilion so far, mainly because so many people told me that it was really boring compared to the lord of the rings. In case you read the Silmarilion, how did you like it?
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I have not read Tolkien at all. I might try the Hobbit this summer if I don't have too many classes to take. I heard it's not that easy to interpret since it pretty much is a community of a different culture of life.
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I didn't find the Hobbit that difficult. Not nearly as difficult as the Lord of the Rings. My Mum even read it to me and my sister as a bedtimestory when I was seven or eight years old. There is also a marvelous comic version of the Hobbit.
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Comic book? Never seen it.
I'd highly recommend reading some of Tolkien sometime, when you have the time, of course, Arven. It'd be worth it.
Word of advice if you want to read "The Lord of the Rings": Pace yourself and expect them to be a lot different than the movies, because they are.
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Word of advice if you want to read "The Lord of the Rings": Pace yourself and expect them to be a lot different than the movies, because they are.
A movie can never be like the book...never. ;)
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True, but i can name at least 30 significant departures from the book right off the top of my head, but there's a lot more than that.
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There were quite a few things different in the movie from the the way it was in the books. Nevertheless I found it was much better a book adaption than most movies based on books are.
Some characters were left out (Glorfindel for example whome they skipped to give Arven a bit more to do) and some parts were changed (for example Saruman's death which is likely to be on the extended edition DvD, will be different).
One change that really disturbed me was the dead of Denethor. It is so impressive how he burns himself in the book, holding the Palantir after predicting a triumph of Sauron. In the book it really seems like what Sauron showed him in the Palantir drove Denethor into insanity.
He doesn't appear that insane in the movie, the Palantir is not even mentioned, instead of deliberately burning himself (though he was up to it) he is kicked into the fire by Shadowfax, and for effects sake he runs burning all the way along that rocky projection to fall down there. Really, I prefered the book version there.
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Yeah, had they kept it like it was in the book,it would have been creppier.
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I read the Hobbit and I'm still trying to read the Fellowship of the Ring.
I think it's a very well written fantasy series. :)
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I enjoyed reading those, though the Hobbit has a different feel then the Lord of the Rings Trilogy. As the Unfinished Tales and The Silmarillion each had a different feel as well. In my opinion.
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I've read the hobbit myself :^.^: it was juuust a bit more interesting than "greek myths and legends" lol(I tried reading those twob ooks at the same time, no, greek myths and legends is not from tolkien)
Anyway, I liked it, but I don't think I will ever read the lord of the rings. I enjoy the movies though.. :)
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I've read a lot of Tolkien. The Hobbit and LOTr are some of my favorite books. I've also read the Silmarillion, which is very lengthy, and sometimes hard to keep track of who doing what when..
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Im in the middle of reading Silmarillion. I also have the Hobbit and the other three(If they aren't based on the movies..)
Like i say though, chances are if i never saw the movies i would never have read the books or even knew they existed. that is what some people miss, sometimes movies inspire people to read the books or play the games. right? :)
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the movies are based off the books, although as Wr said there are numerous differences..
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Hello:
I read the 3 Lord of the Rings books before the movies were attempted to be made :DD . I remember the hobbit too, but the Silmarillion and other here and there, I haven't read them.
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I heard Peter Jackson is shooting the Hobbit, no idea if it is true. I enjoyed the movies overall, though some folks do hate them.
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Anyone here ever read Tolkien?
I have! Lord of the Rings. Not bad. The movies did it justice.
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The Hobbit will be made and 2nd film covering the 60 years between the Hobbit and LOTR. Both will make oodles of money...
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I still did not read the Silmarilion, but I did read "The children of Hurin" last year. By the way, did anyone read the comic adaptation of "The Hobbit" by David Wenzel? Uncustomary as it may seem to have such literature turned into a comic I found the adaptation quite well done and neatly drawn. As I saw this comic when I was very young (and annoyed that I could not read it, for that was at a time when I understood not a word of English) it did influence some of my perceptions of Middleearth.
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I've never heard of a comic adaption. Sounds interesting. As for which books I've read, I've read the Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion, and Unfinished Tales. Though I've not read Unfinished Tales in maybe 20-25 years.
As I recall the reason Denothor was driven insane was his using the Palantir and wrestling with Sauron. I forgot where I read this, in an appendix or elsewhere. Doing this drove him mad and aged him, wearing on bit by bit. Often he would see only what Sauron wanted him to see, the hopelessness of victory and sure defeat. I also read, not sure if it is true, that is how Saruman was ensnared into serving Sauron. Though I also read that it was his study of the rings of power that ensnared him into wanting the 1 ring for himself and lead to his making his own ring.
It is also said that afterwards, only someone of strong enough will could really use that Palantir to see what they wanted. Others would see only Denethor's burning hands in the stone.
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Yes Sauraman was ensared using the Palintir. of the 7, only 3 I believe were still in existence at the time of the war. One in Orthanc, one in Bar-ra-dur, and one in Denethor's possession. Aragorn revealed himself to Sauron by using the Palantir in I believe the third book.
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I think it was in that book, I'm not sure. I think his reason was to get Sauron to act before he was ready.
I think they were made be Faenor (not sure how to spell his name) the same elf who made the Silmarils. Though I'm not sure.
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They were indeed, and used to communicate across large distances. gandalf mentions a couple times about striving with the Dark Tower, whether he was casting spells, or engaged in a contests of wills, it is not made clear..
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It could have been a mixture of those too. Interesting how they had interesting items like the Palantir and other things.
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Indeed. I could - and have- talked for HOURS on these books.. The trilogy is truly one of the great works of the last century, and has earned Tolkien a right place amiong the true masters of literature..
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I couldn't stand the first 100 pages of the Hobbit. So unbelievably boring! Otherwise, I liked all the books. I wonder why The Hobbit has not been made into a movie yet.
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It was made into an animated movie i the 1970s by Rankin Bass the same guys who did all those Christmas specials... as for live action, the technology just wasn't there to film on such a wide scope. for decades it was thoughnt that it was simply impossible to bring LOTR to the big screen because its complexity and scope, not to mention how much money it would cost..
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They sure have. I remember it was interesting to read some of the unfinished tales too, and in other books reading some bits of earlier drafts, to see some of his creative process. Though I prefer the finished, or last if unfinished, version.
The second age is the one age we've seen the least of.
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I agree. His son Christopher just didn't have the same 'magic Touch" that his father had. The Silmarrillion for example, lumbers in placs, ands its hard to keeep track of whats happening. The Second Age could be the basis of a story, because so little is written about it..
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The only second age story I recall is in the unfinished tales. It has some info of some history of Numenor also I think.
I do agree about The Silmarrillion. I think if Tolkein had put it out he would have not had all of that book. He may have had just the stuff about the Silmarrillions.
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Numeanor, which I believed was destroyed by Ivantur after Sautron corrupted the Kings og Numeanor..
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It sank beneath the seas. Though some ships did get away, and they had some forts and cities on middle earth. It was due to most of them being heavily corrupted by Sauron indeed, though I think that started long before then. There came a time before then that the elves from the west stopped coming to visit Numenor. I think, though I don't recall maybe, that it sank when the last king (who usurped the throne) landed in the undying lands to, I think, challenge the valar. I think I recall he was sealed in a cave or something till the last battle at the end of the world, or somesuch like that. Don't recall his name.
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I think the Changing of the World, is how the destruction og Numeanor was referred to in the Silmarillion, but I'm not completek sure on that..
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There was one where the flat world was made round, forgot if that was the first or second age. The valar called on Illuvator who reshaped the world. As I recall most of the land of Belagriad (however you spell that) was drowned by the sea.
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I read that Tolkien stated the drowning of Numeanor was partly based on a recurring dream he had had. A dream involving a huge wave sweeping the landscape.
As for Denethor, I have one (German) audio play of the lord of the rings on 11 CDs, and the way they made the death of Denethor was just awesome. I don't think I have ever heard anything else so creepy. The voice actor (who had on other occasions used a very imposing voice) really managed to use a voice which made him sound like somebody had been made crack up. Accompanied by a subtle but very fitting melody in the background (kind of a flaring sound) it really was one of the most impressive scenes I ever heard in an audio play and it was an awesome interpretation of what Tolkien had written. In this respect I think that for once the makers of the movies utterly failed in coming close to what Tolkien described.
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Sounds like it was great to listen to.
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Man, I haven't read Tolkien in forever! I've only read the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings trilogy, but they were pretty awesome. I'll have to look into his other works.
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He's done more then just those 3 more famous books. Good luck, it shouldn't be to hard to find them.
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one of his early works is being published this year. The Legend of Sirhan" or something like that..
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I love Tolkien (not personally), I just enjoy his works.
I've read:
The Hobbit
The Simlarion
The Lord of the Rings
and the unfinished tales.
As to the movies, there are some parts were I did not like. For example, the elves at Helms Deep? How did they get there quick enough (when it took Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli days to reach Rohan) to aid the Rohirrim?
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Yeah, that does beg the question how they got there so fast. it wasn't in the book, it was just added to up the "action" I guess...Who was your favorite character in the movie.. Mine's Gandalf..
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Unless the elves had a teleport device?
Favourite characters in both book and movie verse are:
Sam (For being a true hero and a loyal friend) and Faramir.
Although I do like Sir Ian Mckellen's portrayal as Gandalf.
Favourite characters in Book verse are:
Eomer and Imrahil.
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Saruman was also played well, by the great Christopher Lee, who's been in tons of movies over the years, everything from Dracula to Star Wars. But I digress
Gollum has always had a special place in my heart, and Andy Serkis played him very well in the film, and will reprise his role in the Hobbit which is coming out neither next year or 2011.
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It could be a mistake, or it could be they could do some sort of fastravel thing that Gandalf used in the hobbit to leave the hobbits since he was busy elsewhere too and reappear among or near the dwarves.
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I believe in the Hobbit, Gandalf used a horse which he borrowed from Elrond to return to the troll's campsite, and just in the nick of time too..
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I recall he also had a tendency to just vanish at times, or something like that in the texts to only reappear. & he mentions, I think, about knowing he was needed at the time of the trolls. I'm not sure since I've not read the hobbit in over a decade.
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well he is a wizard after all, and most likely , judging from the timeline, he was probably attending the White Council.. that is what he was late for when he left Bilbo and the dwarves outside of Mirkwood.
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That could be a whole book, or movie, in itself, The White Council. It was also the name of what was going to be an rpg that ea canceled, or so I read.
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It was the temporary name for a RPg that EA later changed to something else.. although It would be cool playing as Saruman back when he was good..
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It would be indeed.
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What I found on the Council game is that it is on hiatus...they may restart work on it, or they may not..
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Maybe if the hobbit movie or movies do well.
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The Hobbit will do well, very well, that much is guaranteed. Mackellan will most likely play Gandalf again, aand Andy Serkis will play Gollum again. the question who will play the 13 dwarves...and Smuag..
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I vote Clancy Brown for the voice of Smaug.
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that is a pretty large cast, though most of the dwarfs are not main characters, but hopefully, they'll still get skilled actors to do them and especially the main characters.
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What about who is playing Bilbo for 'The Hobbit' movie?
Or has someone already been choosen?
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James Earl Jones could be another Great cast for Smaug, he's done evil guys before.. as for who's playing Bilbo, we don't know yet. it won't be Ian Holm, though, he's too old..
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I wonder if they'll use the actor who did Bilbo in the Lord of the Rings movies or if they'll choose a different one, I guess a different one, though Bilbo not supposed to have aged since he found the one ring. A thing that I think set Gandalf into thinking that what Bilbo had was one of the greater rings of power then one of the lesser rings.
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Oh yes, James Earl Jones would be wonderful to play Smaug.
I remember browsing the internet once and saw a thread that was titled 'Who do you want to play as....'
Over the roles for the characters in the Hobbit.
Some one mentioned Tim Curry.
Personally, I don't find Tim Curry that evil to begin with nor is he someone who I actually find a decent actor. James Earl Jones however, oh yes. In my opinion dragons should have deep voices.
What about the trolls: William, Bert and Tom?
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No, Bilbo did age, although much more slowly that he normally would have. The ring extended his life, in fact by the time he left on the ship with Gandalf anf Frodo, he was the oldest hobbit ever- he was 131, passing the Old Took, who was 130. They'll probably get someone else to play Bilbo, Hlm hasn't shown much interest in playing the role again.
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i like Tim Curry, his evil voice is more arrogant and smarmy, when Smaug is a master of evil , deepvoiced and full of power and menace. Who should play the 3 trolls? Thats a good question, and while their roles are relatively brief, the dwarves Bilbo and Gandalf find great treasure in thier cave..
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I love th troll part of the book and as for the dwarves, I can imagine one of the dwarves being played by Anthony Hopkins....or even Bob Hoskins.
Ah well, since I have no say in who takes part in this movie, I'll just have to see.
Eddie Izzard may also be good for a role. I always imagine him (if they ever made movies out of The Bartimaeus Trilogy or The Old Kingdom Trilogy) to play Barimaeus or Mogget....
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Having Anthony Hopkins in a role would be great, but I'd imagine that the casting will be British for the most part, as the trilogy was.. but we;'ll see...Bob Hoskins is another favorite. He was in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? as Valiant the dectective..
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I thought Anthony Hopkins was english?
As to british casting like the previous films. Some members of the cast were New Zealanders or Australian. For example: Celeborn, Galadriel, Faramir, Eowyn, Eomer, Haldir and (I think) Elrond.
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They'll have Elrond back in the Hobbit, although his role is small. They will also have to find someone to play the Great Goblin. Also the Elven King, and the Giant spiders...lots of roles to fill..
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I also wonder who they'll cut from the movie too. They could do most of it if they did the movie in 2 parts. Though I guess they'll try to do it as 1 movie and have the link movie between The Hobbit & Lord of the Rings as the 2nd movie.
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What about someone doing the Eagle Lord's voice? Any suggestions?
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Thats a good question. Perhaps they'll have Rhy-davis do it like he did Treebeard
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The hobbit will be at least 2.5 hours, and the second film wil cover the 60 years between the Hobbit and LOTR..
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I hope they do the Hobbit in two parts, atleast in two parts. As it will give explanation and expand the storyline and characters for those who have not read the books. Like they should have done for Harry Potter...
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Johnathan Rhys Davies could be good for the part of Eagle Lord or would he go for (once again) a dwarf part?
Is Peter Jackson directing the movie?
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They're doing it for the last Harry Potter film(break it in two parts. But for world this vast, You can't put everything in it.. and not have it run to Gone With the Wind Length.. I'd imagine that they'll try and be as faithful to the book as possible, and add when they need to..
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No, he's executive producer. Gulerrmo Del Toro is directing.. Peter Jackson will have a big riole in craftig the story and how it is directed..
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Well if Jackson has a big role in the crafting and how the directing goes, I am not to worried. I've neverheard of Gulerrmo Del Toro, so it will be interesting to view his work when 'The Hobbit' is released.
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He directed the third Harry Potter film "prisoner of Azkaban", which was much better recieved than the first two films... the HP films have actually gotten better as the characters have aged and matured..
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Ah, interesting. I didn't recongnise the name.
May I ask, out of all of Tolkien's Middle Earth works did anyone enjoy or enjoy the least?
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I like all of them but if I had to pick, anything written or edited by Christopher would be near the bottom..Tolkein spent decades inventing , re-inventing and adding new places characters and expanding the mythos. If he was still alive today, he'd still be at it, adding new stories and characters..
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If only he was alive today.
If he was alive today, do you think he would have agreed with Jackson's adaption of The Lord of the Rings?
If memory recalls, I remember that Christopher Tolkien wasn't agreeable with the movie adaption but the estate couldn't do anything since the rights had been sold (I think by Tolkien) in the 1960's or around about then?
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I actually think Tolkien would have been amazed at the film. Yes there were liberties taken with the film, but that can't be helped. I think if he were alive, the film would not have een made without hiring him as a adviser, after all it was his work. the finished trilogy was a masterpiece, the likes of which are only rivaled in fantasy by the original Star Wars trilogy. I think he would have appreciated the incredible fandom that the films have produced. the Films themselves would have made him, a billionaire, if he were alive today..
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Although Christopher Lee (who knew Tolkien in life and reads The Lord of the Rings once every year) became an advisor and put input into the movie.
Didn't Tolkien say to Lee that if there was ever a Lord of the Rings movie made, he'd like him to be Gandalf? It would be interesting to see if Tolkien was alive today, to see if that still stood.
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Lee had originally asked to be Gandalf, but Jackson thought thaat he was too old for the part so he cast him as Saruman. Mckellan was eventually cast as Gandalf, and now, for better or worse, is associated with the role. I'm a big Christopher Lee fan, but I don't recall Lee ever claiming that Tolkein wanted him to play Gandalf..
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My favourite Tolkien work, is of course The Lord of the Rings but I do like the hobbit aswell.
Didn't Tolkien 'write' the Hobbit for his children originally, then agreed to write the manuscript when someone read it, enjoyed it and requested for him to do so, so it could be published and distributed?
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Nick22
I'm a big Christopher Lee fan, but I don't recall Lee ever claiming that Tolkein wanted him to play Gandalf..
Have you seen Lee's portrayal as Dracula? It is fantastic.
I think I read it somewhere. I'd have to look for it....no matter.
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i believe it was originally a children story, then when it was published, he got requests for a sequel which eventually became LOTR, and his magnum opus. Actually I have never seen him as Dracula, my first viewing of him was in 1974's The Man with the Golden Gun, A Bond film starring Roger Moore as Bond and Lee as Francisco Scaramanaga.
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I recommend that you somehow see his portrayal as Dracula. I've only seen it once as my paternal grandparents are avid Lee fans.
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When he did the role, he actually did not watch Bela Lugosi's performance as the Count in the 1931 version of DRacula. Lugosi died a couple years before Lee's Peformance as the count, which often makes me wonder if had Lugosi lived, they would have offered to cast him in a small role in Lee's version, to symbolically pass on the "torch" of Dracula to the next generation. It would have been a nice gesture..
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Oh yes, I agree. Although I have never seen Bela Lugosi's performance as the Count, I'm afraid to say. Although I dearly wish too.
How old were you when you first read (any of) Tolkien's works?
I first read the Hobbit when I was around ten years old.
As for the Lord of the Rings, I first read around thirteen but did not manage to finish the book as I was in the process of moving.
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I was probably around 10- when I first read the hobbit. it was a library book with pictures from the 1978 Rankin Bass Film. In fact I still have it, The Library got rid of it so I bought it for like a dollar, and still have it with me :) the Lord of tHe Rings. I must have started right after finishing the Hobbit. I'm a very fast reader so it probably took me a couple months to finish the trilogy. And then I started re-reading them going over things I might have missed before.
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One dollar?
That is very inexpensive.
My version of the Lord of the Rings was from my maternal Grandfather. He originally lent it to me but after I eventually finished when we moved to Switzerland, he said I could have it.
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Yeah they were throwing it away so It cost hardly anything to buy it.. Which was nice as I had very fond memories of the book. I had seen very version of Lord of the Rings to date, inclkuding balski's unfinished version. His version only goes to the end of the two towers. He never got around to finishing the return of the king..
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Is the Children of Hurin any good?
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I've never read it, Its one of the few Tolkien books I haven't read. Oh, and Big News. Mckellan WILL play Gandalf again! :D and Serkis will play Gollum again, so those two are on board.. Now to see if they can get Hugo Weaving back as Elrond...
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That would be great, even though he's in just 1 scene. They could have some other elf characters that were in the lord of the rings in the background, without needing to introduce them. Folks who saw the lord of the rings movies would recognize them.
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Is the Children of Hurin any good?
It's okay.
The Children of Hurin did not capture me as much as the lord of the rings or the hobbit did and occasionally it was tricky to keep track of the many names in the book, but I never regretted a moment of the time it took me to read it (which was not too long, a fact that may also indicate the book is not boring). Not brilliant, but not bad either.
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Well, in the book, he does translate the moonletter runes on the map, which will almost certainly be part of the film.."Stand by the gray stone while the thrush knocks, and the Last light of Durin's Day will shine upon the keyhole"
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Excellent that Mckellen and Serkis are reprising there roles for the hobbit.
As to The Children of Hurin, it would be interesting to see what it would be like (reading wise) but I don't know. Wasn't it edited by Christopher Tolkien?
They HAVE to have Elrond in the Hobbit. Although it is a small role, there stay was vital to the storyline.....slightly.
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A small but important role. If they do The White Council, or whatever they call it his role should be larger in that one.
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It was vital period. Elrond could translate runes of all sorts and it was there they first discovered the "moon -letters". Without the moon letters they could have never found or opened the door into Smaug's lair, and it could only open at a certain time, at a very specific moment, sunset.
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His role will be bigger in the second film, whatever its called. That one they're largely making out of whole cloth.. since there is no book to base it on, save for pieces and short references in Tolkien's works..
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True a very large role in it I'd guess, and Saruman should be in that one also. It would be neat if early in the film he was still good, then we could get a glimpse of what Saruman was like originally.
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If its over the 60 years between the films, then whether or nor Saruman is "good" is up for debate. The relationship between Gandalf and Saruman was greatly strained at the final meeting of the White Council, which occured 12 years after the Battle of 5 armies.. so I don't personally think Saruman was 'good' even during this time.
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Very likely not. likely he had not been good for a long time indeed.
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At least a couple hundred years by my count, the last time we could place him as 'good" was during the 2700s T.A He delayed the White Council for decades which allowed Sauron to prepare his response to any thrust by the Council. When they finally acted (what they did is never mentioned) he fled to Bar-ra-dur in Mordor.
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Very likely since I think he coveted the one ring by then. & may have been looking for it himself.
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Most likely although the ring by that time had been in gollum's possession for hundreds of years. He was over 500 years old by the time he perished in the fires of mount Doom. I wonder what they would have done to him had he accidentally dropped the ring in, and not fallen in himself. They probably would have seized him and bound him hand and foot, and dragged him with them, him still crying about his precious..
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Not sure about him, but I read that what they did to Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam in Valinor was, supposedly, to remove the effect of the ring on them and let them live out their normal lives. Forgot where I read that.
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12 years maybe a very short time for wizards of thousands of years, but still a lot can happen within 12 years. Even wizards may not need more than 12 years to choose sides in a conflict. It may be that Saruman had not yet been corrupted.
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Well, Kor, that would have probably resulted in Bilbo dying in a few years, he was 131 after all. I wonder if Gandalf returned to the form he took before going to middle Eartth. He was the only one of the Istari to complete his mission..
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True on those accounts. I wonder if he did and if he would at times assume the Gandalf appearance once in a while.
Saruman went evil, Radgast fell by the wayside, so to speak, since he got to caught up in caring for animals it seems. As for the 2 blue wizards I read that early on Tolkein said they fell to serving Sauron, but I read later on he was thinking maybe they didn't and stayed in the east to try to talk folks into rebelling against Sauron, so not sure about them.
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The Blue Wizards were not given names in the Trilogy, in fact were barely mentioned. whatever thier mission was, they failed, as they did not return to Valinor..
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I read that, I read that one of his sons found in his father's writings that he did later on that he may have changed his mind. Whatever their fate they didn't succeed like Gandalf did. They can easily be ignored as even existing. Radgast is only in 1 scene I think in the trilogy.
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well, Radagast is mentioned in the Hobbit, as Gandalf's "cousin", when he's talking to Beorn at Carrack. I doubt the wizards were actually related to each other than they were all maiar..
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I thought he was mentioned in the hobbit at Beorn's house but I wasn't sure if I remembered correctly so I edited it out before I posted.
I doubt they were really related also, but likely just Gandalf, and maybe other wizards, to explain maybe why they looked similar to each other and were wizards.
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an easy explanation. "Oh he's my cousin" rather than. He's a fellow maiar". I'm pretty sure the Valar forbade them from revealing thier true nature to anyone anyway, as well as fighting Sauron directly.
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They likely were not supposed to tell, though doubtlessly some folks, mainly certain elves, would know. I think their mission was to assist those living in middle earth and not to directly battle Sauron.
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That sounds about right. Elrond and Cirdan probably knew what they were , Cirdan being gifted with "deep" sight...
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& gave the ring of fire that he had to Gandalf, which I think Saruman didn't like. Not sure when he found out. I think he gave it to Gandalf since he saw his need was greater, to help to inflame hope, or hearts or something, I forgot the exact reasons but it did help to show that Cirdan had deep sight. I also read he's the only elf to have a beard maybe to show his age or something, if is true he has one.
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Yeah Saruman found out, abnd deeply resented it.. Cirdan was ancient even by elven standards. I think He was one of last living Elves from the First Age.
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He was one of those elves that the Valar invited to the lands of Aman if I recall correctly. Even older then Galadriel if I am correct.
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Yes, he was, and Elrond as well. which leads into immortal-life vs, mortal life. Elves can be killed so they are not completely immortal. Same goes with dragons..
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Yes. Many do not realize the Elrond does come from the first age so it's pretty old, but not as old as Galadriel nor anywhere as old as Cirdan.
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Elrond is a half-elf so he was given a choice between a mortal lifespan or an immortal one. He chose immortality... his daughter Arwen chose mortality in order to live with Aragorn...
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and I read so did his sons. He also has some Maia blood in him as well since I think Melain is an ancestor of his. I'm not sure how many generations back. I think it is on his father's side, though I may be wrong.
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Yes, the immortality is from his fathers side, way back in the Elder days.. The LOTR takes place at the end of the Middle Days.... and the Younger Days I presume refer to the dominance of Men.
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Yes, as elves left middle earth, or faded & dwarves I think reduced in numbers till Duran the 7th I think, which will come at the end of dwarves or somesuch.
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Durin the 7th, the 6th ruler of that name since Durin the DEathless back in the First Age. Dwarves themselves usually live a hundred years or so, although Dain lived into his 250s...
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They can live a long while. I'm not sure what is average for dwarves.
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Most of them live into thier hundreds, some even to 200, but it was not common for dwarves by the late Third Age to live to 250. Dain was the exception..
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I guess it fit with the fading that seemed to be the overall theme. Each age was less then the one before.
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and that continued into the 4th age. Gimli died about 80 years after the 4th Age began.. or rather he left around that time with Legolas.. read into that what you will :)
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I read he wanted to see Galadriel one last time, and maybe not be separated from Legolas. I've not read anywhere where dwarves were forbidden from in Valinor, though I guess having maybe Gandalf, Galadrile and maybe a few others thinking it may be ok it may have been easier for him.
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While dawrves were not forbidden, they had their own place if i recall correctly, and so exceptions had to be made for them to leave together..
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True, so maybe he went right to whatshisname's hall. The one who made the dwarves, and I'd guess maybe the only one, maybe, to enter his hall alive. Aule, not sure of his name.
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Aume, I think his name was. Dwarves wait in a big hall, or so Thorin said to Bilbo as he was dying. "Now I go to sit beside my fathers.. until the world is renewed"
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Supposedly they are going to help him to rebuild the world after the final battle. I guess they just sit around and do nothing till then. I wander what they'll do once the world is finished being rebuilt.
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Probably join in a huge party with all the elves Hobbits and Men in the Undying lands.. :lol
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That sounds like it could be great. I wonder who could drink who under the table. :lol
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:lol: Yeah, that would be fun to see.. I wonder where dragons go when they die.. and where Gollum ended up.. I know Sauron was cast into the Void with Morgoth, his former master..
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Maybe where ever Saurman went when the wind from the west, if I recall the description, came in when he looked to the west after Wormtongue killed him.
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Funny that he was blown away, rejected by the Valar for his failure. gandalf was brought back,after death, because his task was not complete. Saruman had forsaken his task.. whatever it had originally been, so there was no reasion to revive Saruman..
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And since he had done what he had done it seems he was rejected, as you said. I guess someone like Radgast, if he remains in middle earth, if he got killed by some monster or something may not have that happen. But who can really say.
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Radagst got side tracked, but we don't know what became of him, or the blue Wizards..perhaps Tolkein didn't think about adding anything to the brief mentions he had already set down. For our purposes , Gandalf and Saruman were the greatest of the order..
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Yes, that is how I see it also. 1 could easily just assume there were just 2 wizards only.
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well, 2 doesn't make much of an order, 5 is a nice number, or 7. I think the wizards were called by the color of thier beards, although I have no proof of that..
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Yes, that is maybe what Tolkein was thinking, 2 is to small for an order so he may have picked 5 since that could be an order.
I've no idea if the color is their beards, clothes, eyes, hair, or whatevers. Beard is as good as any. :yes
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Then the question is how did the Blue Wizards get Blue beards :lol: Did they dip them in paint?
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Maybe they did. If there were more in the order then they'd have what, green beards, orange, purple? :lol
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Yes, Griswold the Pink. Don't ask, and we won't tell :lol:
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Hamfast the polkadoted. Halsted the green. Karmek the purple.
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Silmar the violet.. we could go on and on :D
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I wonder if that what you had to do in the lord of the rings rpg system. I heard in that rpg that you could join the wizard order eventually.
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Possibly, I don't know as I never played it.. Ok, what is one hthing from the stories that has always puzzled you?
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I can't think of anything right off hand. Some stories I've not read in 20 years, in the case of the unfinished tales. Though I do wonder why he choose bilbo. They have the reason why in unfinished tales but I forgot the details.
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I think he was chosen because of Bilbo's tough inner nature. Even when he had the ring, the ring never really gained control over him, although by the time he left it to FRodo, it was starting to gain control.
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It seems sam was stronger since the ring tried and he rejected it.
Maybe bilbo was resistant to it.
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Bilbo was resistant to it, and Sam only had to carry it a short way, it would likely had been different had he been the one carrying it thousands of miles like Frodo had. The ring would have began wearing on him as well..
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Perhaps, but he was close to mt doom, and he did reject it.
I read on a web page a while back someone giving is critiques and one thing he said was that Gandolf's mission failed from the start since Frodo was under the snare of the ring.
He also said that Manwe's failed and it was Illuvator (or however you spell his name) is who sent Gandalf back. No idea if any of what he said is true.
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Illuvator did bring Gandalf back, and in fact made him stronger.Illuvator was Tlkien's stand-in for God.. anyway, he brought Gandalf back so the mission could be completed. As for the ring influencing Frodo, that couldn't be helped, theie only hope lay in Frodo resisting long enough to throw it into Mt. Dooom.
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At least things turned out well. I always thought a campaign set during the first or second age could be interesting. Though it would take quite a bit of knowledge maybe of things.
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Yes the Silmarilion had quests in spades. the quest to get the 3 Simarils from Morgoth, who, you must remember was a former member of the Valar, in fact only Manwe was greater, so his power dwarfed that of Sauron, even at Sauron's peak. Sending the Istari against him would have been foolish, it would have been signing thier death warrants...
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Since he was a Valar, like Sauron is a Maiar. I read, not sure if he really said it, that if Gandalf personally fought Sauron (I guess he meant Gandalf the white, his chance of winning is 50/50. The Istari would stand no chance against his master Morgoth. It would be about the same as Sauron or Balrogs or Dragons tried to attack Manwe.
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Yes, Gandalf's power would rival that of Sauron, and be dwarfed by Morgoth, the only ones who could defeat him were the other Valar. I'm not sure if Dragons were considered Maiar, I know the Balrog was.. and he was a match for Gandalf the Grey..it literally took everything Gandalf had to kill him..
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I assumed or read, that dragons were created or bred by Morgoth, though I may be wrong. Though that doesn't mean there could not have been, potentially, some maia who looked similar to dragons.
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well considering that there were no "good" dragons, one can assume that dragons were evil, had Bard not Slain smaug, Sauron would have used him to incinerate a huge area around the lonely mountain, and probably had him attack mirkwood and the Elves who lived there..
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Very likely indeed, among other things.
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But also there is mention of dragons in the south (in The Lord of the Rings), they just (after Bard killing Smaug) became 'extinct' in the North.
Presuming that all dragons are 'evil', could slightly be null and void. After all, we know that not all wizards are good.
Isn't Gandalf a Maiar? Or did I read that incorrectly?
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All the wizards were Maiar, as was the Balrog, and Sauron himself.. well, there no mention of Dragons fighting against Sauron..
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I apologise, that sounded really dim witted on my part.
Gandalf+wizard=Maiar.....
Mental block.
Concentration isn't great at the moment, not very happy.
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It happens, brain farts happen to all of us..
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I assume many may have read the hobbit and the lord of the rings and not know or have figured out what wizards really are.
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I have read the Hobbit.
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Did you like it Serris? Have you read any of the Lord of the Rings?
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Serris what was your favourite part of the Hobbit?
(edit): oh and who or whom was/were your favorite character(s)? If you had one.
When I read the hobbit, my favourite part was the trolls ambushing and discussing what to do about the dwarves.
My favourite character was the Eagle Lord.
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In case anyone is interested and in case anyone has not found this previously:
Thain's encylopedia (http://www tuckborough net)
I haven't viewed all of it but it does appear to be a rather acceptable non-official encylopedia.
Just in case anyone is interested that is all, thought I would share it with you.:)
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looks very interesting. thanks saft
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No problem Nick.
I thought it would be nice for fellow Lord of the rings fans to view. I'll try to correct the link though. HTML and I aren't particular friends.
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There is also a wiki up at: http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Middle-earth (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Middle-earth)
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Thank you for that Kor.:)
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I found another with info on middle earth. It's labeled the encyclopedia of Arda. Not sure if any would be interested.
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp)
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Thanks for this additional link Kor, when I have time I'll look through it.:)
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May I ask, of your opinion regarding who the true hero of Middle Earth was due to destroying the ring?
I'd be interested.
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You mean who the true hero was who destroyed or helped to destroy the ring? That is a hard one maybe. One would say Frodo maybe. But as I read on another website or forum years ago (forgot which) Frodo was ensnared by the ring from the start, like Isildur had been, though he did, like Isildur, get to Mt. Doom he could not throw the ring in. Gullum was long ensnared and enslaved by the ring so his taking the ring with him into the magma of Mt. Doom was not his intention. The only one who wasn't ensnared by the ring was Samwise, who rejected the ring when it tried to ensnare him. & he was always there for Frodo. My guess he would have been able to throw the ring into the magma if he had been given a choice.
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There was in my opinion, no true singular hero. all played their part.. gandalf Agaorn and the Fellowship played thier parts by holding Sauron's gaze anfd fighting his forces long enough for sam, Frodo and Golllum to reach mt Doom.
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In the book Faramir also proves quite resistant to the ring when he states that he would not take it if he saw it lying on the side of a road the moment he realizes that Frodo has the ring. They changed this very much in the movie as it was felt that this attitude would disenchant the power of the ring too much. Of course Faramir was not quite as exposed to the ring as Samwise was.
I suppose that something was at work with the destruction of the ring that was not under the control of Frodo, Gollum, or the ring. I think Gandalf explained that Bilbo got the ring because he was meant to find it. I'm generally very suspicious of any thoughts of predestination but I think that Tolkien may well have had something like that in mind.
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Yeah, I love LoTR.
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That was likely a bit of retconing since he wanted the hobbit to fit into the lord of the rings. Like the way he took out some chapters and rewrite them to fit in with the lord of the rings.
It could be said that the ring left Gollum since it was trying to get back to it's master, as I think has been mentioned somewhere, forgot where. It could be it was hoping some orc would find it, but instead Bilbo did by chance. If one wants to stretch things a bit one could say, though it would be a real stretch, that some maia, or valar or Illuvator himself subtly did something so Bilbo was knocked off of the dwarf that was holding him so the ring could be found by Bilbo and not an orc, but that would be a real stretch.
Maybe part of the reason it left Isuldur, hoping to be found by the orcs who were nearby, but since Isuldur was in a river or lake, forgot which, it fell to the bottom where it could not be found by them. & it tried to leave Bilbo & think when he was near one of the entrances to the orc/goblin lair, but since his hand was in his pocket it just fell off of his finger & stayed in his pocket and failed again.
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the ring had a will of its own, and it left Gollum after it had totally warped his mind.. it had started to warp bilboo as well when he left after his 111th birthday, ans he had had the ring for only 60 years, a mere fraction of the time Gollum had had it, roughly about 500 years by my count.
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I have been thinking about my response to the question that I asked initially and although I do agree with what Nick mentioned regarding that there was no single true hero in evolvement in the Ring Wars, I do feel that if it hadn't have been for Sam, Frodo would never have gotten as far as he did. He would have either died or would not have been able to resist the ring's influence as much as he had done. Sam was (although a hero of the ring war) a true friend.
Focusing on Gollum, it is a shame that although the Smeagol part of him had banished the Gollum side, and thus was able to resist the ring to a certain degree it is sad that the Gollum side returned in a moment of weakness. As I think Gollum/Smeagol would have redeemed himself to some degree.
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Unfortunately for Gollum the ring had nearly completely destroyed him.. he had had it for so long that he was completely addicted to it. even had he dropped the ring in of his own free will and survived the war, he would have never been free of his need for it.. and given his age (nearly 600 years) he probably wouldn't have lived long afterwards without the ring anyway.. he was nmiserable with the ring, and miserable without it..
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If he had lived it is possible the Valor may have been able to do something. I read somewhere, forgot where, that is what Tolkein said ultimately happened to Bilbo, Frodo & Sam. The went to Valinor and the effects of the ring was removed from them & they lived normal lifespans in Valinor.
I wonder if any of them were live when Gimi and Legolas went to Valinor. I think I read somewhere that Gimli was the only dwarf who went to Valinor. Maybe due to Galadriel and maybe Gandalf's putting in a good word or something.
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Yes, I was thinking a long that sort of theory Kor. So, thank you for explaining it much better than I.:)
Whilst I understand that the ring had caused an ever lasting effect on Gollum, I thought that there could have been some hope for him to live out his final term of his life in peace and harmony. That is, if he had survived and not had given in once again to the corruption and control of the ring.
I remember that Sam left for Valinor after his wife had died. And Gimli and Legolas went to Valinor after years of travelling together so perhaps they did re meet with one another?
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Gandalf said that there was little hope for Gollum being cured before he died, although that was using the powers available in Middle Earth. I'm not sure where Gollum ended up after he died. Given that the Valar were able to cure Biblo Frodo and SAm, its entirely possible they could have cured Gollum as well. as for living a normal lifespan, Bilbo was 131,, so he wouldn't have lived much longer even after having been cured. Frodo could have been still alive when Sam went, it was only around 30 years after Frodo left that Sam left, IIRC,, but even had it been 50 years fRodo would have been around 100 years old..
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Also another question, one that my sister asked me but I failed to answer as I wasn't sure.
Is it possible that once the elves had reached Valinor could they return to Middle Earth?
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Well, without the ring to corrupt him, I do think the Smeagol part would have gained ascendency. I don't know where he would have gone afterwards, perhaps he would have settled in the Shire, or more likely, gone WEst with Fodo and Gandalf..
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i'm not sure myself, but my reading of the trology was that once the Elves reached Valinor they never reutyrned to Middle eArth. which is why the songs warned Legolas about heeding the white gulls call, because then he would never be happy in Middle Earth again.
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If he had died wouldn't he have gone to the halls of Mandos? Or is that only for elves when they die? And if so, where do the other races of Middle Earth go when they die?
Gandalf said that there was little hope for Gollum being cured before he died, although that was using the powers available in Middle Earth. I'm not sure where Gollum ended up after he died. Given that the Valar were able to cure Biblo Frodo and SAm, its entirely possible they could have cured Gollum as well. as for living a normal lifespan, Bilbo was 131,, so he wouldn't have lived much longer even after having been cured. Frodo could have been still alive when Sam went, it was only around 30 years after Frodo left that Sam left, IIRC,, but even had it been 50 years fRodo would have been around 100 years old..
But hope no matter how small, can still be hope. Yet, you are right Nick when you mention that although the powers on Middle Earth would not have been able to cure him the Valar could have done, if Gollum had lived.
You see, what I'm trying to explain, is that I feel that even if there is a very 'evil' character (ie:Gollum) then there is still some remenance of good left in them (ie:Smeagol).
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i'm not sure myself, but my reading of the trology was that once the Elves reached Valinor they never reutyrned to Middle eArth. which is why the songs warned Legolas about heeding the white gulls call, because then he would never be happy in Middle Earth again.
Yes, I remember that. It is a pity that Tolkien did not explain as much as that.
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Mandos is for elves I believe.. Gollum was a hobbit-like creature.. and I don't think tolkien mentions a special place for hobbits, like he does for dwarves and elves..
yes there was hioipe, but it was slim.. Gollum had almost no free will left. yes , his smegaol side would have taken over after the loss of the ring, and that side was the decent side, the side that was rarely allowed out..
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Yes, the Smeagol side would probably would have purged the Gollum side as it broke free of the (ring's) Gollum influence. It is sad that he was not given that chance.
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what he would have done with hinmself, of course is the question. his life had not been a happy one.. he had developed a split personality, two different halves. His whole life had been wrapped in the ring..
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I think he would have bee lost and unsure of himself. He would have felt free for the first time in decades but would have been unsure as of how to handle it.
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more like centuries...I like to think he might have tagged along with Frodo and Sam...even though sam would never have fully trusted him after his deceit in trying to have Shelob kill them..and the little matter of biting off Frodo's finger. frodo I think would be more willing to forgive Gollum, although after they got home, I wonder if the Shire-people would have accepted Gollum..
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Perhaps not, after all they never really got over the way that Gandalf changed Mr.Baggins who was respectable before the wizard came along to incite him on another adventure.
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they never understood Gandalf... there were very rural, interested in having things stay the same, the epitome of conversatism..
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Speaking of Gandalf, does anyone else know his other names?
I do, just to be clear.
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Olorin was his name in valinor. Thrukin was his Dwarven name Mithrandir was his elven name..
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Yes, excellent Nick.:)
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I'm a huge LOTR nerd. can you name the other Istari? :)
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Which other Istari?
I know Saruman or Curumo as he is known and Ragdagast or Aiwendil.
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and the blue wizards? :)
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The reason for Legolas feeling the stirrings of the urge to go west is he's descended, I think, from the 3rd group that the Valar invited to go to the west, this was, I think, during the age of the 2 trees. I forgot all their names. 1 group ignored the Valar's invitation and became dark elves since they never saw the light of the Valar nor of the 2 trees. The first group went with no hesitation and went right to Valinor, they only returned from Valinor briefly at the end of the first age during the battle when the Valar came to battle Melkor and his forces.
The 2nd group, that Galadriel is from or was a part of (she is very ancient) went to valinor second. The Teleri I think they are called, since the Tarried, took the longest. Some never went to Valinor, but settled in varous places, including Green wood the great, that later became named Mirkwood. It is said that the urge to go west sleeps in the teleri and only needs to be awakened, even in their children.
The only elves who went to Valinor and came back were 2 groups. The original first group who went to Valinor, only returned to middle earth, with the Valar, during the war at the end of the first age.
The second group had some who returned after the 2 trees were poisoned. Feanor had made the Silmarils that had the light of the 2 trees, but when Ungiliot or somesuch name, a maia or valar type who was in the form of a giant spider poisoned the 2 trees Feanor refused to give the Valar his Silmarils so the trees could be saved. Melkor stole the Silmarils and killed Feanor's Father. Feanor & his sons swore an oath and many of their kinsfolk did also and went to middle earth. Some elves tried to stop them and what is known as the kinslaying happend, with one of the Valar laying a doom upon those people. Though it Tolkein did say later I think that Galadriel and her people had no part in the kinslaying they did go to middle earth. Feanor and his sons never were able to get the Silmarils since I think they were no longer rightfully theirs due to their oath.
Those 2 times are the only times elves came from the west. When the istari came during the 3rd age you can guess how surprised the elves were to see a ship coming form the west.
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Blue wizards were Alatar and Palando?
And thank you Kor for explaining.:)
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Yep.. The blue Wizards were only briefly mentioned..
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Oh, did I get that correct? I know they had alternative names but I don't know them.
Off topic but I hear music....
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which Istari came first?
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It's difficult for me to say this but I'm not sure which Istari came first. I think it may have been Ragadast?
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Given that the Valar were able to cure Biblo Frodo and SAm, its entirely possible they could have cured Gollum as well.
Having never read the Silmarilon myself I know very little about the Valar. Do they care enough about individual beings to intervene like that at the end of the third age? In any case Gollum would have had to be brought to Valinor, or so it seems, if that was the only way Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam could be utterly cured, if cured they were.
There are however some very crucial differences about the exposure of Gollum on the one and Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam on the other hand. First of all Gollum had it for about 500 years or so, while even Bilbo had it for only about 60 years and rarely used it. Frodo had it for about 17 or 18 years I think and Sam for less than a day or so. Gollum obtained it through murder while Bilbo in particular acted with pity when he found the ring and could have slain Gollum (in what one could have almost labeled as self defense), Frodo inherited it, and Sam only took temporary care of it. Gandalf is very specific in stating that the way Bilbo obtained the ring mattered a lot in how little damage it dealt him.
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Would the Valar hold a council to decide the acceptance of Gollum if that was the case?
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Oh, Nick I do not like not knowing. Who was the first Istari to come first to Middle Earth?
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Saruman was the first, Gandalf was the last.. As for the Valar, who knows what they would have done...