The Gang of Five
Beyond the Mysterious Beyond => The Arts => Silver Screen => Topic started by: Saft on May 06, 2009, 06:20:22 PM
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Discussion of one of the greatest disney films of all time, although I am probably biased as it is my favourite film.
I will add more to this tomorrow but I'll just give a basic background of how I came to love the film.
Along with The Land Before Time, my Dad when I was four and living with Grandparents bought me The Lion King. Unfortunately I am one of those who have never seen the film in the cinemas (when first released nor the 2001 Mirmax special release into theatres). Like the Land Before Time, the Lion King has touched me in a way that is hard to describe.
Although when I was younger, I did not fully appreciate the music, the art work, the scenes or even some of the characters. Which is similar to the Land Before Time series.
Cliche perhaps that Simba is my favourite character but I feel as though he has strength, courage etc. ....I guess, everything that I wish to be.
Now the sequels:Whilst I was not particularly impressed with the third movie: Hakuna Matata or Lion King 1 1/2... I did, to some extent like Simba's Pride. Although it has been years since I've seen this movie, I do recall that I was truely in awe with the music. Althought the music will never be as good or magical as The Lion King, it has some sort of magic that to put it bluntly makes me happy.
I'll leave it here for today and will continue tomorrow. I'd appreciate any thoughts to the films (even if you didn't like it :) ). After all, it is a discussion.
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I say it would be one of my favorite Disney movies too, with the popularity, the music, the characters and everything else! :DD
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The lion King remains imo the last trukly great Disney Animated film. its sequel , which was inevitable following the first fil'm sucess. was a big disappointment. the interquel borrowed from the first film, and reviewed said that the parts from the first film were far superior to the "Timon and Oummba" side. Imo they should have never made either sequel, and let the first film stand on its own merits.
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Personally I liked Simba's Pride, and thought that it was one of Disney's better sequels. Plus, when I watched the deleted scenes I realized how fantastic it could have been and appreciated it all the more. Though, of course, it will never equal the first. I have a bit to say about TLK and will probably write more later... It's a fantastic film.
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Yes, I agree with you Nick regarding the Timon and Pumbaa sequel, that should never have been made as there wasn't really any story line etc.
I agree with Darkwolf though regarding Simba's Pride it was one of Disney's better sequels, although I dislike sequels regardless I do have to say that it was a better sequel than the normal sequels that disney give out.
The Lion King along with Beauty and the Beast is one of those films were you can actually feel through the music.
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I've never seen the beauty and the beast but I do honestly love the lion king. Some of you might have seen my collection(which kind of became an addiction by now :p)
The movie on itself still makes me shed a couple of tears, just like the land before time. My emailaddress(thelionqueen) is also based on that movie(although I wasn't too much of a fan in 2007, I did create it because of TLK).
The sequels are okay. As for any great movie, usually sequels aren't quite as great as the actual classic, but that doesn't make them bad. I love simba's pride. It had a complete different goal but the story was still very good and it still hold simba's will to follow his father in it. As for the lion king 1 1/5(or 3 as we call it in europe)... It did definitely make me laugh, but it didn't have the lion king feel to it. I usually watch it when I'm in need of a good laugh.
From the original movie I honestly like the scene that simba sees his father in the clouds. It's quite emotional.
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And both movies (not counting the 3rd) have similiar storyline bases from Shakespeare: Hamlet (Lion King) and Romeo and Juliet (Simba's Pride).
I agree with Mumbling regarding the fact that Hakuna Matata did not have the Lion King feel, in fact I found it quite disorganised.
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the problem with Romeo and Juliet is that the lovers actually die. theres no happy ending. they kill themselves, thinking the other is dead. I found Kiara to be a bit spoiled and self-centered, and Simba was a overly protective father. Nala was barely in the second film at all.
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It was mainly about Kiara anyway, so Nala shouldn't have a huge role.
Why do you find her spoiled and self-centered? Could you give examples?
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I really don't have examples, it was just my personal reading of her..you may disagree. the character I liked most was probably Nuka, Kovu was pretty bland actualy, despite being the "chosen one".
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Hmm I see. Okay
I like kovu, but everyone knows that.
I don't think Kiara is too self-centered, though I guess I know what you mean. I've had that feeling too about her.
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For myself, Kiara wasn't a complex character in fact she was quite simple. Sure along with Kovu, both of them stopped the battle between the two prides but, and although I wouldn't use the term self-centered, she didn't strike me as a favourable character. She was quite immature, perhaps due to Simba's over protection of her. But why was he over protective of her in the first place?
Personally, I did like both Kovu and Nuka. Both of them had complex personalities and hidden emotions/thoughts etc.
Such a shame that it was focused on these two (Kiara and Kovu) and did not lead to any further characterisation or explanations. I do tend to view Simba's Pride as having plot holes...
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I akways thught that at the cub born at the end of the first film, was a male cub... I think they changed that for SP.
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Yes, I thought it was too. I think that it was intended to actually be a male cub and during the period between the Lion King and Simba's Pride various books and comics were released involving Simba's reign and his son:Kopa. I think if you were able to google 'Kopa' in a search then perhaps there would be some sort of evidence towards this. However, Kopa disappeared with the release of Simba's Pride and Kiara.
If we take this as we do regarding theories involving the Land Before Time verse, we could speculate that Kopa was the cub at the end of the The Lion King so thus the presentation is as we see, he is killed by Zira and her outlander friends in a bid to attempt to take over the throne in the name of Scar; this could explain why they were exiled, Kiara then becomes the cub at the beginning of Simba's Pride; as the presentation compared to the ending of The Lion King differs.
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Although, I think that should be noted regarding Kopa is that the people who created these extra characters were not the same ones who did The Lion King and Simba's Pride....although I think, disney was behind these books regarding Kopa. I'm not too sure.
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So, Kiara was a second child of Simba and Nala, but they make no mebntion of having a first child. Had Kopa not been killed (granted this is spec) Kiara would not have been born, and the events of Sp would not have happened. They only make reference to exiling Zira and the Outsiders. I'm not sure if they killed Kopa or not, frankly had they done so, exile would have been lenient, Simba could have ordered them to be executed. and frankly that was what I read into Kovu's exile in Sp. "Get out, you ever come back we kill you.." thats what I read. and they never explained what consequences Kiara would face for leaving the Pridelands.. she could have been disinherited of her place as future queen..
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Ah so that's where the name Kopa comes from, thanks for clearing that up to me.
I've also read a comic from 1994 from the lion king, in which they indeed say "The new lion king has got a son!", so yea, that was definitely from disney.
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Well, a branch from disney at least.
No problem though, there are some books around that include the characters of Kopa, Mohatu (Simba's Great Grandfather), Ahadi and Uru (Simba's Grand Parents) and Zuzu (Zazu's Mother). I don't know where you can find these now but it could be worth a look.
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That sounds nice. Will sure be looking out for those.
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I didn't appreciate much of The Lion King 3, but the only thing i liked in it was when Timon and Pumbaa were in the main events of the first film. :anger
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Yes, that annoyed me too Stegron. As Mumbling mentioned there was no Lion Kingish feel to the third movie. Also, I dislike both Timon and Pumbaa (although Pumbaa isn't that bad compared to Timon, in fact he's quite likeable) but the whole entire movie seemed to be centered around Timon and his selfishness. That every event (as you pointed out Stegron) that took place in the Lion King happened because Timon and Pumbaa or that they were present when (for example the Stampede) some of these events took place. Realistic wasn't one of the script/story board writers aims....
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Yep, they toook away from the first film but pputting timon and Ppummba in every scene. They were the comic relief, not the main characters for a reason..
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Maybe it's just me not having a sense of humour (and that I can't take a joke) but I didn't think that they were that humourous to begin with. Then again popular demand...
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thats why the Tv series Timon and Pummba was made... popular demand..
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I actually found the movie quite funny at times, things you didn't expect and stuff. But just as a funny movie, not as the lion king.
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I found this, in case anyone is further interested in the six new adventures regarding Kopa:
Kopa source: (http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d172/DJCoulz/WebsiteShit/Books/HTZ04-1.jpg)
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thats why the Tv series Timon and Pummba was made... popular demand..
The Lion King tv series Timon and Pumbaa was one of the many things i like about the movies. It was funny and pretty much old. :DD
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OMG this topic reminds me I haven't been to the Lion King source [if anyone has heard of that forum] in like forever :blink:
anyway
Lion King is one of my favorite movies because of my favorite character MUFASA!!! :p
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What Lion King source forum do you refer to?
Interesting that Mufasa is your favourite character, he doesn't get alot of love in the Lion King verse. What do you like about him?
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The Lion King is my favorite childhood movie of all. With Aristocats, The Little Mermaid, and Land Before Time next.
The message, the music, the visual, the characters, and the plot it's just so beautiful, tragic, and joyful. My favorite character EVER is Simba, especially when he's a cub. I love the humor in it, I love everything about it. I still have an old Simba floppy plush from when I was 2 years old. :^.^: It's definitely one of my prized possessions from my younger years.
I do like the second one. There was actually a period of my life where I liked Kiara much that I preferred the second one over the first. Now I like the first better. :) I'm not really a fan of Kovu, he's sort of a bland character to me. Though I liked seeing his most complexed part and that is when he actually has feelings for Kiara and ponders whether or not he should carry out the plot to kill Simba.
I honestly don't see how Kiara would be spoilt. I mean sure, she's naive, but I honestly think she has a good heart. :)
And honestly, I like the Lion King more then I love Land Before Time.
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extra post sorry :oops
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What Lion King source forum do you refer to?
Interesting that Mufasa is your favourite character, he doesn't get alot of love in the Lion King verse. What do you like about him?
I don't know I always liked the parents that died in disney movies like :p
My favortie characters in "Bambi" is Bambi's mother and father
in "Lion King" its Mufasa or Kovu
in "Land Before Time" its Littlefoot's mother and Littlefoot
oh and about the Lion King forum
It was a forum that was part Balto and part Lion King
it was very cool there. But I moved on to this forum and the Danny Phantom forum[if anyone has heard of that Nickelodeon show]
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The first was definitely my favorite. I was about eight when it came to theatres, and I still remember going to see it (good ol' Aspie memory :lol). It's one of very few films, alond with LBT, that have ever made me cry.
My favorite characters are Timon and Pumbaa. Reason? These two are a barrel of laughs and help lighten the mood of the dark storyline, just like LBT's Ducky :D. Ducky may be more restrained in her humor than these two but they all seem to share a lot in common :yes. Timon and Pumbaa remind me so much of my funny side, and some of their comical moments are priceless :lol. Since we pretty much know their funnies in the first one, here's my favorite part of theirs from the second one:
Timon and Pumbaa are surrounded by several of Zira's lionesses, and Pumbaa has his rear facing them. Timon grabs Pumbaa's tail, cocks it like a rifle, and threatens, "Don't anybody move! This thing's loaded! I'll let ya have it!", causing the lionesses to run off screaming like little girls :lol :lol.
BTW, I liked Zira as a villian. It's not too often a female villian who's totally bada** exists, especially in animated films, so she made the list of my favorite villians :D.
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Zira was a good villaness.. butkovu never really seruiously tried to kill Simba, although in one of Simba's nightmares he did..and I wonder what Simba would have done to kIara had he found out about her lereaving to see Kovu despite her strict orders not to?
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Zira was a good villaness.. butkovu never really seruiously tried to kill Simba, although in one of Simba's nightmares he did..and I wonder what Simba would have done to kIara had he found out about her lereaving to see Kovu despite her strict orders not to?
Because he was in love with Kiara of course.
I don't think he would have done anything to Kiara since he saw how much in love they were. After all, did he get angry with her for stopping the fight on Kovu's side? If so it was mainly because she was disturbing him.
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He'd probably lock her up in a tower Nick.:D
To be more serious in regards to this theory, I have no idea. I could hazard a small guess by saying that he could maybe isolate her or some way.
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Well he had exile Kovu, presumably forever. Kira was probably bared from seeing him. Of course, she ignored this..
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I don't really like these movies, but I love the Laughing Hyenas and am a supporter of them getting their own show someday! :goodluck
Movie 1.5 was truly awful from what I've read/heard. Two of my least favorite characters having their own movie? :rolleyes: And get this: one of them called one of the hyenas a "yellowbelly" in the first movie! :anger I'm serious! Every LBT fan knows that is one of the worst possible insults you can give someone.
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1.5 for me doesnt count. And in any event they gave T and P an entire family, yet wouldnt consider adding Kopa tio the canon? Vitani at the end of 2 has no one to be with, literally. at the end of 2 there are 2 guys in the pride, Simba and Kovu, and Vitani couldnt have cubs with either of them. Simbas too old and well Kovus her adopted brother. so, another Lk film, would in all likelihood have to deal with the other half of the family, the siblings of Kovu and Kiara. Now what would that result in? well in real lion prides if there is more than 1 dominant male, the males share ruling the pride. Kopa, since hes simbas son, would become king, and share with Kovu the responsibilities of ruling the pride. Kiara, since shes a girl, would not be affected by Kopa's return. Lion Prides have two hierachies, the male hierarchy, led by the king , followed by his soins, and then theres the female hierachy led by the queen followed by her daughters. so Kopa and Kiara would be coheirs and would have to compromise on who gets what. both would require consorts, so kovu is kiaras and vitani would become kopas.
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I saw an essay that someone posted on Deviantart that basically debunks the theory that Zira killed Kopa. For one thing, Kopa is non-canon. The creators of the movie never endorsed any of the works he appeared in. Therefor I consider Kopa to be an alternate universe character.
Second, if Zira had killed Kopa, she wouldn't have still been around to scheme during the sequel. Simba or Nala would have killed her, plain and simple. Don't try to tell me that they're "too nice" to do something like that either. Remember how pissed Simba got when Scar hit his mom? Yeah, he was ready to rip Scar a new one. So just imagine what he would do to someone who murdered his child. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end if Simba went into "Papa Wolf" mode.
As for characters in the second movie, I really liked the bad guys, particularly Zira. True, she wasn't as good as Scar, and she could have benefited from a more developed back story, but still, as far a sequel villains go she was one of the better ones, right up there with the poacher from Rescuers Down Under. I mean, she was actually a legitimate threat and could actually be downright scary at times. Sorry, but crazy psycho felines scare the crap out of me.
Frankly I'm glad they didn't put Kopa in the sequel. To me, he just came across as a carbon copy of Simba as a cub.
And as for the other abomination of a sequel, I just like to pretend that it never happened.
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While you do have a strong point f-14, remember with each new story you bring in new characters. In the Aladdin series, his dad kazim did not appear until the third alladdin film, he did not appear in the first two films, yet the writers brought him in for part 3 anyway. Vitani does not have a mate, and must have one before the next generation of cubs are born. in other words, Kopa becomes a necessity. in the books, hes not in them much, so theres plenty of room for character development with him.
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While you do have a strong point f-14, remember with each new story you bring in new characters. In the Aladdin series, his dad kazim did not appear until the third alladdin film, he did not appear in the first two films, yet the writers brought him in for part 3 anyway.
Movies are canon. Comic books and short stories, however, were never endorsed by the writers and therefor are not canon. Kopa is still not canon.
Vitani does not have a mate, and must have one before the next generation of cubs are born.
I don't see what that has to do with anything.
in other words, Kopa becomes a necessity.
Not really. He's basically just a glorified fan character until the movie writers say otherwise.
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Not all films are canon - ie LK 1.5. What i'm saying that films add new characters and branch out all the time. characters who were not used at first, are added later . while Kopa is not canon, right now, that is not necessarily going to be always the case. its simply a matter of bringing a good story to the writers attention, and working him in. its also a matter of owning the rights to the character, as in the winnie the pooh stories.
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I watched it few months ago for the first time, and I would certainly watch it again some day, and sequels very soon. I liked Zazu and Timon, it had good songs, especially "I just can t wait to be king".