Your Thoughts on Animation.

WeirdRaptor · **on:** October 18, 2006, 11:36:19 PM

As you know, the western part of the world has this ridiculous idea that animation is only for kids, and if its not for kids, then it can only be acceptable as a vulgar comedy. All animated features that are actually 'more mature' in their very essence are ignored and ridiculed by the general public.

Here is one person's thoughts on the matter:

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"The art of cartooning is vulgarity. The only reason for cartooning to exist is to be on the edge. If you only take apart what they allow you to take apart, you're Disney. Cartooning is a low-class, for-the-public art, just like graffiti art and rap music. Vulgar but believable, that's the line I kept walking."

"None of my pictures were anything I could ever take my mother to see. You know it's working if you're making movies you don't want to your mother to see."

Personally speaking, I think the person who said the above quote is a complete moron. I think of live-action films like a moving picture given a story, and I think of animated films like a moving painting with a story to go with it. They're the same in principle, and both can pursue artistic interest, but artistic interest in one is only accepted in certain parts of the world.

What do you think?

DarkHououmon · **Reply #1 on:** October 19, 2006, 12:43:40 AM

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the western part of the world has this ridiculous idea that animation is only for kids

Sadly that is true. My mom scolded me once for looking for an animated movie to watch, and told me to find something more adult-oriented, and Kylie, one of my sisters, ridicules me for still liking to watch cartoons, and thinks I should watch something more like Seventh Heaven or one of those so-called "reality" shows.

My brother Clint, though, shares my opinion for cartoons. This is because we both enjoy anime, and I respect anime more than american cartoons because anime is more varied. In Japan, there are anime for babies, kids, teens, and adults. To them, it's acceptable to make a cartoon that's slated for adults.

My brother and I still enjoy cartoons, and I actually prefer animated movies over live action ones.

I do not really see why people would think cartoons are worse than live action things. In my opinion, they are just as good.

Malte279 · **Reply #2 on:** October 19, 2006, 01:24:36 AM

I have a feeling though that much is being done to make cartoons more "acceptable" for a grownup audience, and I do see some success. The mention of vulgarity may refer to some jokes in movies such as "Shrek" or "Ice Age 2", but I didn't find those jokes anyhow disturbing. Animated movies don't necessarily need any vulgarity to be sucessful. Many grownups watched "Finding Nemo" which was bare of any vulgarity. "Lion King" (which was produced quite a while ago) was also a cartoon which was hardly considered "for kids only".

DarkHououmon · **Reply #3 on:** October 19, 2006, 01:28:17 AM

I agree.

WeirdRaptor · **Reply #4 on:** October 19, 2006, 07:30:52 AM

That's my problem with it, Malte. Toiler paper humor is the only means through which any adult-oriented material makes it into animated features. I would love to see a good, solid animated film that was rated PG or PG-13 not because it had sexual innuendo or vulgar humor, but because its just too intense for scary for kids, and that the plot is just too complex for them to understand (without help). You know, like a normal live-action film. I believe that the kind of thing we see told in teenage and adult-oriented live-action films can also be told in animation. The western part of the world just has to see that the only different between animation and live-action is that one is filmed on a set, and the other is drawn.

Sadly, I have to look to oversees animation to have that.

You either like the vulgar comedies, or you love of animation isn't socially acceptable in this part of the world.

Malte279 · **Reply #5 on:** October 19, 2006, 09:08:11 AM

I'm afraid that there is even an abundance of violence in many animation genres. Only for some reason these are still free for any kids to watch, probably because the violence in these movies is not presented as scary but as "normal" or even "heroic".
However, as for non vulgar animation movies which were considered to be "proper" for grownups too I really think that "Finding Nemo" and "The Lion King" are good examples for this. An even older animation movie which is immensly popular among many grownups is "The Jungle Book" which wasn't vulgar in any way either.
While I do see the problem that many grownups have with animation, I also see quite a couple of exceptions.

WeirdRaptor · **Reply #6 on:** October 19, 2006, 06:18:11 PM

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I'm afraid that there is even an abundance of violence in many animation genres. Only for some reason these are still free for any kids to watch, probably because the violence in these movies is not presented as scary but as "normal" or even "heroic".

I'm not talking about violence you'll normally see in animated features, I'm talking about "Lord of the Rings" level of violence. Would you take a child to see "Thee Black Cauldron" or "The Lord of the Rings"?

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However, as for non vulgar animation movies which were considered to be "proper" for grownups too I really think that "Finding Nemo" and "The Lion King" are good examples for this. An even older animation movie which is immensly popular among many grownups is "The Jungle Book" which wasn't vulgar in any way either.

Those are still kid's movies at heart. I'm talking about an animated feature tailored for adults, without the use of "Shrek" toilet paper humor. I'm also talking about animated features that are up to par with mature thinking, instead of simple messages for kids, that can really make you think like a live-action movie can. I would love to see an in-depth social commentary in an animated film.

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While I do see the problem that many grownups have with animation, I also see quite a couple of exceptions.

You're not getting the point. I know that some cartoons can be watched as adults, but my point is its ridiculous that most people only think cartoons can only either be kiddie or vulgar, and how there has been no room made animated features like "Titan A.E.".

Petrie. · **Reply #7 on:** October 19, 2006, 06:58:04 PM

The Plague Dogs wasn't made for kids. That's Western animation...a bit rough on the edges and time hasn't been kind to it, which is why it only has a cult following and nothing more. I put the edited scenes online (what American censors didn't want us to see): http://plaguedogs.therabbitbungalow.com

In a way, I agree with you WR. There hasn't been another Plague Dogs in the Western world. The closest you get is maybe some of Studio Ghibli because they usually don't hide the blood and all that, but already you're in Asia, and the only reason the films can't be censored is it's in the distribution deal that the films can't be touched.

Seems that its not just one person who thinks animation is for kids. Its a whole distribution network that wants it to remain so as well.

WeirdRaptor · **Reply #8 on:** October 19, 2006, 08:24:30 PM

Well said, Petrie. I love a lot of Western animation, don't get me wrong. I just wish we could get to see more mature animated films that are actually 'more mature'. But everytime a filmmaker even dares to go where others have not in this part of the world: they end up like Don Bluth: careerless.

Stitch · **Reply #9 on:** October 19, 2006, 10:25:59 PM

Actually, I know that the Ghibli can edit their films at the request of their international distributor (Disney). I know this because i've seen the original version of Pom Poko in a foreign movie series, and the original dialogue was not as "innocent" as the Disney dub.

WeirdRaptor · **Reply #10 on:** October 20, 2006, 03:18:17 AM

True, but the English dub for "Princess Mononoke" still got a PG-13 rating. I think "Nausicaa" had a cut-and-paste dub, originally.

WeirdRaptor · **Reply #11 on:** October 20, 2006, 06:44:40 PM

Oh, and the guy who said the quote in the original post hates the very ground Don Bluth walks on.

Petrie. · **Reply #12 on:** October 30, 2006, 09:17:09 PM

Well yeah, the dubbing is always lost in the translation somewhere. I thought we were just talking about what is actually shown on screen (ie the blood and stuff). I mean, even Spirited Away had at least one "sex" scene of sorts - care to guess what was going on behind those covers when that elevator stopped on that floor before Chiro closed the door again?

:

KingdomKey23 · **Reply #13 on:** October 31, 2006, 01:23:33 AM

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Oh, and the guy who said the quote in the original post hates the very ground Don Bluth walks on.

Ouch, that's harsh. I agree that there should be more animation for adults, too. I mean there's really no difference. They have live action films for kids and adults, but animation isn't that much different either. Just the format. They're just drawings. I don't understand why it's just for children. If they have live action movies for kids, too, then why wouldn't they have more cartoons for adults? South Park and Family Guy are examples of adult cartoons, but there should be more. I know that there are other adult cartoons, but compare that to the number of kids cartoons. I think the kids have the lead over the grownups.

pokeplayer984 · **Reply #14 on:** October 31, 2006, 09:56:49 PM

I myself have been studying this subject for a while. As it turns out, in Japan, where the majority of dubbed Anime comes from, the films hold a number of things that normally wouldn't be shown to kids here in America.

For instance, in Sonic X the original version holds quite a bit of swearing. (I dare one viewer of the original to find one episode that doesn't hold any of the following: shit, bastard, bitch) The swear words though are used to give more meaning to a scene (Like the possiblity of the charcter unable to out manuver a homing missle) or insult someone. Never once using it as comedy. In the third season, there were several scenes that had blood, but was hard to catch. (I believe that the original animators were trying to figure out what they could hide from the dubbers, and they definately got them.) They also had one scene where a woman was aging at an increased rate and showed the breasts developing. And guess what? It counts as a show for kids over there!

In the original first season Opening song for Pokemon, it held the following line:

"I will go anywhere.... even under a woman's dress"

This was the main reason why the song was changed for the dubbed version. Still, the original counted as a kids show, despite that problem.

I got the oppurtunity to watch Spirited Away myself. In fact, I have it saved from when it aired on Cartoon Network thanks to DirectTV. I do not remember the scene of sex that was pointed out, but it has been a while. However, I will probably forever remember the scene where that dragon bled alot. Ugh! To think, they allowed the uncut version to appear on Cartoon Network in the morning. Think of the little young eyes that would be watching that. :blink: Still got a PG though. <_<

If you ask me, I think Cartoon Network has a better sense of what can and can't be shown to kids than most USA TV programs.

Yu-gi-oh! the Japanese version holds all sorts of blood, violence, swearing and so forth. It's one of the few I found that counts as something for older viewers in Japan.

:

If you ask me, this research has helpped me in seeing what CAN and CAN'T be shown to kids.

KingdomKey23 · **Reply #15 on:** November 01, 2006, 08:57:16 PM

Yeah, searching the web I did find a few sites with comparing the dubs. I saw a One Piece site that showed all sorts of things. Now I haven't seen One Piece, but 4kids does heavily change things around. During one Yu-Gi-Oh episode when Yugi took on Joey, they cut out the part where Yami Yugi got hit by Meteor of Destruction as he was in flames. It also funny that instead of death they said "You'll go to the Shadow Realm." I mean even Bluth's films showed death and they were rated G. Why do 4kids always cut out death? I mean even children shows on PBS talk about death. I remember when I was young and saw Arthur that they even explained death. Even the infamous Sesame Street episode talked about it. I don't understand why 4kids would do that.

WeirdRaptor · **Reply #16 on:** November 01, 2006, 11:07:25 PM

A stupid move: cutting out death. Part of the purpose for children's entertain (fairy tales, movies, tv shows) is to prepare children for what they will face later in life. That's why the Grimm's Fairy Tales are all so morbid! Of course, those have been toned down in more recent times as well.
Like in the original version of the frog that turns into a prince: the princess beats the living *beep* out of him when he tells her that he will turn into a prince if she kisses him.

Then, after he plastered nearly dead on the ground: he turns into a prince.
Or in the original version of Rapunzel: Rapunzel begins to complain about how her dress is becoming more tight around the stomach soon after the prince first pays her a little..."visit". -_-
Or the original version of Rumpelstiltskin, when he gets pissed off at the end when the girl tells him his name: he grabs his leg and tears himself in two. :blink:

So, even kid's cartoons can (and should) have some level of depth to them.

KingdomKey23 · **Reply #17 on:** November 01, 2006, 11:58:34 PM

Yeah, I remember that a lot fairy tales or nursey rhymes felt a bit dark. Like, "Ring a round the rosey." As a kid I could care less about what it meant, but now that I know what it really means as an adult I'm not going to be like, "oh my god it's the end of the world!" There are just some lessons that kids will eventually learn, but western markets don't display that a lot. (Example as I stated above: 4kids)

pokeplayer984 · **Reply #18 on:** November 02, 2006, 12:04:26 AM

Quote from: KingdomKey23,Nov 1 2006 on 07:57 PM

Yeah, searching the web I did find a few sites with comparing the dubs. I saw a One Piece site that showed all sorts of things. Now I haven't seen One Piece, but 4kids does heavily change things around. During one Yu-Gi-Oh episode when Yugi took on Joey, they cut out the part where Yami Yugi got hit by Meteor of Destruction as he was in flames. It also funny that instead of death they said "You'll go to the Shadow Realm." I mean even Bluth's films showed death and they were rated G. Why do 4kids always cut out death? I mean even children shows on PBS talk about death. I remember when I was young and saw Arthur that they even explained death. Even the infamous Sesame Street episode talked about it. I don't understand why 4kids would do that.

Hey, I think I remember that Arthur episode. Wasn't it the one where DW's bird died? That was a good one.

WeirdRaptor · **Reply #19 on:** November 02, 2006, 03:39:35 PM

Oh yeah. One thing people have to realize is that kids aren't as fragile as they think. Yes, I agree that a level of restraint should be implemented when making something for kids, but don't cut everything dark and scary out of it! It helps toughen kids up for later things in life.