Just had a thought about Land Before Time 3

[DarkHououmon]

Going to address one particular detail here that confuses me.

How do you think Topsy would even go about a ban on flyers going to the Mysterious Beyond? That seems really farfetched for Topsy's character. Topsy does not strike me as someone who would deliberately hinder looking for a solution just to maintain some kind of control.

Not to mention flyers can just...fly away. You could try to say that Topsy kept weaker dinosaurs from looking (I still find this highly unlikely). But it's hard to see him stopping flyers from leaving.

Really, there's not really much I can see supporting the idea of Topsy trying to keep flyers, or anyone, from leaving and checking the source. Bear in mind that he himself also needs to survive in the valley and if there's a constantly dwindling supply of water, and it runs out, well he's screwed as well. So if there was a solution to the problem, Topsy would most likely be ready to fix the problem, not stop it from being fixed.

The only time that Topsy didn't act reasonable in the movie during this crisis is when he doesn't listen to the longnecks on which way was right. But note how he doesn't force anyone to follow him, only Cera. Given this, it is likely that Topsy doesn't really care that much about absolute power. If he did, he would have tried to make everyone follow him, but the moment that the longnecks disagree, he just lets them go. He only cared about Cera doing what he said.

Looking at this, I just find it hard to believe that he would care enough to stop flyers from spotting the problem. He isn't that power-hungry (him letting the valley dinosaurs going their own way hints strongly to this) and even if he did try to put a ban, how easily could he even enforce it? Flyers can just...fly.

I honestly cannot see Topsy being so power drunk that he would endanger even himself just to keep in control. He's bossy, but he's not that bossy.

[Coyote_A]

Looking at this, I just find it hard to believe that he would care enough to stop flyers from spotting the problem. He isn't that power-hungry (him letting the valley dinosaurs going their own way hints strongly to this) and even if he did try to put a ban, how easily could he even enforce it? Flyers can just...fly.

Honestly, I think there's a very significant detail missing in this picture. In real life, when faced with a dire situation a lot of people will wait for someone else, preferably a strong leader to stand up and make a decision about how to deal with the present dilemma. And if such is the case with human being, this would be especially true for creatures whose main instrument of survival has always been herd instinct. For the dinosaurs of the Great Valley it's basically an unwritten law to adhere to what the head of their group says and this is why nobody dares to come up with a different plan once Mr. Threehorn stomps his foot and tells everyone what he thinks they're ought to do - they've got their orders and they're supposed to follow them without a second thought, that's what their nature dictates! (This is also why the grownup are always so surprised by their younglings' inability to act in the same manner) Yeah sure, Topsy's line of behavior would've helped him and his offspring survive while they were out in the Mysterious Beyond, but now that they found somewhere to settle in, a place with an actual community in place it does nothing, but create problems for everybody. And this and subsequent LBT movies basically bring this issue up time and again.

[DaveTheAnalyzer]

“Needs of the many” sounds reasonable in such a situation, though I can’t help but think disabled people like me and those with greater needs would be the first to be sacrificed, so I would be among those giving Mr. Threehorn a wary side-eye.

However, I don’t think Mr. Threehorn was doing this for power. There were some small moments like him briefly smiling and raising his head after finishing his “Tough” song that indicate he likes some validation. But I believe he genuinely made the decisions he did in the movie for the good of his daughter and the valley. His experience told him life is tough, so sometimes you have to be tough to survive. Unfortunately, he seems to at times classify under tough surviving “truth talking” that merely verbalizes the prejudices many think about (I roll my eyes so hard). Him putting himself in charge of who can drink the water that’s left instead of this being a team effort (which could track down all the water left and account for everyone’s needs) seems to be a sticking point for many with him.

As for Hyp and his posse, maybe there could have been another way to integrate them into the story. Maybe a situation could come up earlier in the film where the gang and the bullies have no choice but to team up to accomplish a task and that causes them to discover things they like about each other. Hyp and Cera already have a few parallels draws between each other, so why not have them interact more? Oh, the snark-to-snark combat they could have. They could bond over their razor-sharp mischief and the difficult dads they still adore so much. Maybe that would have more fleshed out the theme about parents setting a good example for their kids.

That might have sidelined Littlefoot and his own kinda-thing with Hyp (Where Hyp seems annoyed and then persuaded into helping with Littlefoot’s earnestness) but that still be integrated in. I also wouldn’t mind a bit more bonding between Spike and Mutt that explores why the latter hangs out with Hyp and Nod in the first place (Even disabled people want to be punks!).

[Coyote_A]

However, I don’t think Mr. Threehorn was doing this for power.

Problem is he had shown multiple times prior that he thinks every other species living in the Valley are inferior to the Threehorns and that nobody else can get things done, but himself and his kind. So yeah, he may not say it directly, but that IS what he thinks and what he wants his daughter to think as well. They are the Threehorns, they are right and everyone else has to listen to them. Which - given the tribal era mentality - pretty much means he wants to be in charge.

[rhombus]

Honestly, I think there's a very significant detail missing in this picture. In real life, when faced with a dire situation a lot of people will wait for someone else, preferably a strong leader to stand up and make a decision about how to deal with the present dilemma. And if such is the case with human being, this would be especially true for creatures whose main instrument of survival has always been herd instinct.

The bystander effect, as it has been called, is quite well documented and studied in behavioral science.  I once encountered this first hand several years ago when I encountered two people panicking over a woman who had collapsed in the parking lot (she had a stroke) and it wasn't until myself and one of my students intervened and told people to get help that things actually started moving along.  Thankfully, the woman's impairment was minor and she recovered in the hospital.

The thing about the effect, however, is that it is short-term generally speaking.  It affects how people behave in an immediate crisis situation, but not necessarily in prolonged ones.  If a situation is prolonged without resolution then eventually others will attempt new things. For this reason, the idea that Mr. Threenorn's argument for rationing would dissuade anyone from doing anything else or the flyers from even taking a peak at what has stopped the water, has significant problems in my opinion. Another issue is that each herd has its own dominance hierarchies and ways of doing things, most notably the flyers which seem to be much autonomous in many ways, and I doubt the words of one member in a different herd would permanently hold sway. In fact, several of the other valley members were already viably chaffing at Mr. Threehorns strictness on the water restriction in the third film. If the idea of having a flyer find the blockage had occurred to any flyer then they could have made a brief flight with no risk of any reprisal or loss of face.

I am curious about something you said earlier, however.  Previously, Coyote, you said this:

Again, I can't agree with that. There are two kinds of leaders: those who actually care for what's best for everyone and try to find real solution to every problem and those who instinctively step in to satisfy their own egos without giving it a second thought and Mr. Threehorn is definitely in the latter category.

To which DarkHououmon made this observation:

The only time that Topsy didn't act reasonable in the movie during this crisis is when he doesn't listen to the longnecks on which way was right. But note how he doesn't force anyone to follow him, only Cera. Given this, it is likely that Topsy doesn't really care that much about absolute power. If he did, he would have tried to make everyone follow him, but the moment that the longnecks disagree, he just lets them go. He only cared about Cera doing what he said.

Do you have any reply to her critique of your position?  The world is not black and white and leaders come in more than two groups.  Topps certainly is a flawed character with a need to present strength (probably because to do otherwise would be to lose his place in the herd), but I do not see a blind lust for power to be the basis of his character.

[Coyote_A]

The only time that Topsy didn't act reasonable in the movie during this crisis is when he doesn't listen to the longnecks on which way was right. But note how he doesn't force anyone to follow him, only Cera. Given this, it is likely that Topsy doesn't really care that much about absolute power. If he did, he would have tried to make everyone follow him, but the moment that the longnecks disagree, he just lets them go. He only cared about Cera doing what he said.

Do you have any reply to her critique of your position?

Actually I do. Sure he "let the Longnecks go", but how much would you be willing to bet Tops would go full rage mode if - say - a flyer volunteered to go on a scout mission into the Mysterious Beyond and asked to drink some water out of turn to recover the strength he needs to fly over the mountains? For my part I think he'd go bonkers since it would strike him not only as putting someone else at risk, but also as an act of rebellion againsts him and his point of view. Powerhungry and contemptuous people always come up with reasons to justify their line of behavior to others AND themselves. In this particular scenario it's pretty clear that Mr. Threehorn's strategy is detrimental to everyone in both the short run (since the shortage won't get fixed if everyone listens to him) and long run (as it goes against the tendency to organise a more civilised community). I just don't feel that Tops telling himself he's doing it for the greater good excuses him any.

The thing about the effect, however, is that it is short-term generally speaking. 

For us, humans living in a modern society - yes. But for a group of prehistoric beings taught from birth that they have to keep to their own kind and listen to what the oldest and the wisest of them has to say and follow them without question it's a different story. This might actually be the reason why the grownups in the movies are always portrayed as extremely passive and otherwise doing very little. And that is why some stubborn Threehorn shouting and forcing his opinion on everybody before there's any chance of coming up with a sensible plan is just bad news through and through.

[DarkHououmon]

I'll try to keep my response brief.

Coyote, how would you respond to when I pointed out about how Topsy doesn't make anybody follow him? You seem really determined to believe that Topsy's ultimate goal is to maintain power, and yet you do not address the part of the movie where Topsy just lets everybody go their own way.

Does this sound like a power-hungry tyrant to you? Personally, I feel that, if Topsy did want absolute control, he would have made everyone listen to him no matter what. This isn't what happened.

Take a look at Scar, a villain who actually did want power. He wanted so much to stay in power that he condemned the entire pride to death just to keep power. He is a true case of a power-hungry villain, blinded by the need of absolute control.

Topsy, on the other hand, immediately relinquishes control the moment that the valley residents don't want to follow him. He tightly regulated the water, yes, but only because it was necessary. But since there was a fire, getting out was more important. Had he truly been as power hungry as you say he is, would he not have tried to force everyone to follow him, in the same vein that Scar tried to make everyone stay in the Pridelands even when it was a death sentence?

I would appreciate it if you would address this particular point.

Edit: One more thing I forgot to add in. I'll bring in another point, although this is related to another movie. The fifth one to be precise.

There was a moment in the movie where the herds were working together to find a place to eat. Topsy and Grandpa Longneck come across a skeleton and start to argue on which way to go, both with sound reasons as to why they should go one way or another. Ultimately Topsy is the one who decides what should be done.

What's his solution? Allowing the herds to go their own ways instead of all going the same way. Again, not something I would expect a power hungry individual to do. Topsy doesn't try to force all the herds to go his way. He doesn't try to usurp Grandpa Longneck. He instead decides that the leaders of each individual herd should make their own calls and split up. This seems like a logical solution as it means that at least some of the herds could survive (and even tell the other herds if they are able to).

This is another situation in the movies that just seems to clash in with the whole "Topsy only wants power" thing.

[WeirdRaptor]

Coyote, I think Dark and Rhombus got ya beat on this one. Sorry, but there is nothing to suggest Topsy was power-hungry during LBT3. He was simply keeping an eye on things at the river and making sure no one was over-drinking until the crisis was averted.

As for the adults not sending somebody into the Mysterious Beyond, that was a mistake they all made, not just him. And there is nothing to suggest he tried to put a ban on having fliers go out and take a look.

I'm sorry, but in times of crisis, there needs to be somebody who is willing to take a hardlined approach to things to ensure the survival of the many.

[Coyote_A]

Coyote, how would you respond to when I pointed out about how Topsy doesn't make anybody follow him?

But he does. Not in the usual comedic "bring me food, massage my feet and address me as Your Majesty" kind of way, but as a usual domestic tyrant some people have to deal with in real life. That's why instead of looking for a real solution he usually just instantly makes up his mind, makes it known by yelling as loudly as he can and then proceeds to mock or even threaten those who don't listen to him.
Basically his logic in this situation in LBT3 was: no need to further investigate or listen someone else out -> I know what to do and it's all we need -> I'm definitely better than everyone else and therefore I should be in charge. He could only come up with rationing part of the solution which was like only coming up with taking fewer breathes when a bunch of people are stuck in a collapsed cave, but thanks to his extremely prideful nature that was all he deemed necessary and wanted everyone to observe his new rules, i.e. controlling the actions of others. So yeah, he did it for power - the power to control others - and not to help others out even if old Tops wasn't honest enough to admit it to himself.

Coyote, I think Dark and Rhombus got ya beat on this one. Sorry, but there is nothing to suggest Topsy was power-hungry during LBT3.

I'm enjoying the discourse anyway. Plus it helps liven up the sequels section of the forums a bit. And yeah, I'm not trying to paint Tops as - say - a prehistoric version of Scar from the Lion King. Not all frustrated power-hungry people become dictators, but they do tend to try and appoint themselves leaders in situations and communities that don't actually need an "iron fist" guiding them. And then they tend to mismanage the heck out of those... Sounds like Mr. Threehorn alright. :

[WeirdRaptor]

Um, everyone decided on the rationing option. It wasn't just him. You seem to think Topsy has more power than he really does.

True, Mr. Threehorn is that sort, but on the very specific topic of rationing their remaining water until a solution was found, I think he was right. The fault of not finding a solution earlier lies with all the adults, not just him.

[DarkHououmon]

Topsy is a closed-minded character who can act like a jerk at times. He may have tunnel-vision and refuse to see others' POV. I can agree that he isn't exactly the most friendly of the adults.

However, even with that said, I still don't see him being so stubborn that he would stop attempts at finding a solution just to maintain power. I can see Topsy shooting down the suggesting, but only because he might feel there really is no solution. He might think that the water would come back on its own or something. But that doesn't mean he'd stop people from trying to check it out. He might be skeptical, but he wouldn't go out of his way to prevent anyone from looking.

Also, Topsy is just one dinosaur. Let's say for matter of debate that he is power-hungry. Let's say that he did want to keep control and that was the only reason he took charge. There is one particular problem that presents itself if we look at the situation in this matter:

Topsy would not have control for long.

The drought lasts for a while. I don't know how long, but it was apparently long enough that plants were drying up. And in all of this time, Topsy has managed to regulate the water. This isn't so much because Topsy is in control, but more that all the adults agreed to the rationing. Topsy is merely making sure that everyone drinks only their share of each passing day. The worst he may have done is let threehorns drink longer.

But if he was mandating for power, just how long would it have lasted? If he had truly been hoping for absolute control, then he would have been defeated pretty quickly. He is outnumbered and, even if he got other threehorns of the valley to fight alongside him, they still would not be successful. They might have victory over some residents, but the sheer numbers would get to them eventually. Then there's the two old longnecks, who tower over and could do some serious damage with those tails. Littlefoot's grandparents are not to be trifled with.

So in the end, if Topsy's ultimate plan was to gain power, it would be rather short-lived the moment the residents realize what he's doing. Once Topsy shifted from 'preserving the water' to 'controlling everyone like his pawns', he would have his ass handed to him. Topsy might be stubborn, but he isn't stupid. If he truly wanted power, this is not the way he'd go about it.

But like I have said before, Topsy never once struck me as a power-hungry character. Wanting validation is not the same as wanting power. Wanting people to agree with him is not the same as wanting to control them. I can agree with Topsy being a bit of a jerk at times and easily swayed by his anger, but it's very difficult for me to find any evidence supporting him wanting power, or even having the capability of holding that power.

[WeirdRaptor]

The fact that we can have this kind of discussion about Mr. Threehorn really does show he and Cera just have more meat to their characters than Hyp, his cronies, and his dad.

[ADFan185]

Yes yes they do and they where better characters than Hyp and his farther as well.

[Coyote_A]

The fact that we can have this kind of discussion about Mr. Threehorn really does show he and Cera just have more meat to their characters than Hyp, his cronies, and his dad.

Yup, the second sequel most definitely would've turned out better if the story was focused on a conflict between main characters and their relatives. As for Cera's dad... Well, I was about to say that the LBT5 made it look like Topsy was one of the main proponents of the idea of spliting the group up which hardly supported the case of him "just doing what's right and good for everyone", but rather once again showed old Mr. Threehorn at best as "do it my way or get lost" kind of guy and at worst as someone who'd ditch everyone else if it meant increasing his and his kid's chances of survival... But yeah, we've dwelled upon his character long enough and bringing other sequels into this kind of goes against the original topic of this thread. I don't even have anything against Tops, it's just that ever since the original movie I always viewed him as a kind of "ideological enemy" to what the gang and indeed the Great Valley itself stood for: this joined community of all sorts of dinos that overcame their differences to better protect themselves from the dangerous world they had to share. Of course as the series progressed they mostly got rid of the darker and more serious undertones as well as any meaningful character development and it's a darn shame that no real battle of worldviews ever took place.

[WeirdRaptor]

Oh, I'm not saying Mr. Threehorn is a nice person by any stretch of the imagination and I agree that he is a close-mined, pig-headed racist (though he gradually gets better about all these things as the series goes on). I just happen to agree with him on the very specific matter of tightly regulating the remaining water. Otherwise, I usually disagree with him.

[ADFan185]

He's just hot headed thinks he knows everything when he doesn't. Get's everyone in more trouble than he does help out.

[Coyote_A]

Here's another weird thought on LBT3... Whatever happened to the sharpteeth that fought the grown ups in the climax of the movie? They were swept away by the water once the kids destroyed the dam that blocked off the river, but wouldn't the current take them directly into the Great Valley? Sure there's little chance of them surviving falling down the waterfall, but what if they did? :blink:

[Sneak]

there was scene where Sharpteeth get out from water, not?

[Ducky123]

there was scene where Sharpteeth get out from water, not?

Yeah, indeed. They are seen climbing out of the water (still in the Mysterious Beyond too).

Would be a pretty nasty scenario if they survived the fall down the Thundering Waterfalls and continued to wreak havoc in the Great Valley.

[Coyote_A]

True, but there were only three sharpteeth in that scene, while at least four, maybe more took part in the attack. With how fast the water rushed into the Great Valley it's logical to assume the missing predator(s) were taken to the herbivores' safe haven.