Pirates of the Caribbean 4

Petrie. · **Reply #20 on:** September 25, 2009, 07:00:18 AM

WR, you read into movies of fiction far to deeply to actually just sit back and enjoy it (or refrain from watching it if you feel you're not going to like the outcome). Pirates has actually been something I've liked out of Disney lately (excluding the Pixar arm...they're always pretty darn good).

As for Pirates 4, it would be nice, but as I've said with LBT many many times....you go too far for too long and the charm and likability disappears. They could stop films now and I think most Pirates fans would be ok with that.

WeirdRaptor · **Reply #21 on:** September 25, 2009, 10:53:07 PM

How is pointing out the moral event horizens, dissonance, and the plot holes going too deep? Is it asking too much of movie heroes to act appropriately when push comes to shove and that plot make sense?

Petrie. · **Reply #22 on:** September 26, 2009, 07:27:32 AM

Quote

How is pointing out the moral event horizens, dissonance, and the plot holes going too deep? Is it asking too much of movie heroes to act appropriately when push comes to shove and that plot make sense?

Perhaps not but I feel that most actually enjoyed these films, morality aside. I think people realized Jack wasn't the nicest character. They liked him for the antics. So what if he's a goof...this isn't a history lesson on pirate law and practice. If you've ever been on the actual ride, I can tell you its not accurate either, and I don't think people mind. They want to be entertained. You don't go to Disney World to sham inaccuracies and flaws in characters.

Alex · **Reply #23 on:** September 26, 2009, 09:39:12 AM

I don't see how the word 'morals' can be used in the same sentance as 'pirate', considering they didn't have morals, they did whatever they wanted to do...but whatever you say.

WeirdRaptor · **Reply #24 on:** September 28, 2009, 05:23:31 PM

Be that as it may, Jack still acted with surprisingly high valor in the first movie and we actually got a sense that he gave any of sort of a damn about the people around him. Then it just suddenly vanished in the second and third movies. That's still bad writing. Besides, if there are no good guys to root for, what's the point?

I notice that none of you even try to justify the plotholes.

Petrie. · **Reply #25 on:** September 28, 2009, 05:40:18 PM

Can I ask why I should when I've already said I've enjoyed the movies as they are?

WeirdRaptor · **Reply #26 on:** September 28, 2009, 11:15:36 PM

Because that's a weak argument. Besides, if someone brings these facts up, then it is only decent that they be addressed.

jedi472 · **Reply #27 on:** October 01, 2009, 05:20:00 PM

WR, have you ever considered that those of us who enjoy these types of films like them in spite of, or even because of their flawed plots? The plot holes in Pirates aren't that big, and I for one, believe that it would be even less realistic if things had played out logically, because really, real life and humans aren't all that logical, are they?

WeirdRaptor · **Reply #28 on:** October 01, 2009, 06:19:48 PM

Now you're just making excuses. Actually, I know a number of humans who are logical and real life does follow a logical order once you get down to it. And Pirates would have been better if the plots had more logic to them. And yes, the plot holes are big. I repeat, how can Barbossa be a pirate Lord if he had to be second mate to another one? That makes absolutely no sense in any ranking order at all. That's not just being illogical. That's stupid. And how can Beckett be the bad guy for wanting to get rid of filthy, murdering, raping, stealing, and plundering pirates? Explaint it to me.

And no, you do not enjoy films for their flaws. You enjoy them for what is good about them. A flaw is a bad thing.

Belmont2500 · **Reply #29 on:** October 01, 2009, 06:23:21 PM

this could've been photoshoped and considering the way the 3rd movie ended I seriously doubt there will be a Pirates Of The Carribean 4 but the POTC series is pretty succesful fo a 4th film might be pretty good.

Kor · **Reply #30 on:** October 01, 2009, 09:20:51 PM

I've noticed it is often with some writers who do not seem to think things out like, if it is this then it means that and that must happen. They don't think out the full ramifications forward and back. I've not seen the pirates movies so can't say if I think the script writer and or director is one like this, but it is not an uncommon thing.

jedi472 · **Reply #31 on:** October 01, 2009, 09:41:12 PM

It's an action-filled fantasy. No one said it have to make sense. It's just for fun. Besides, logic often has a way of making things that much more constricted, and I really don't mind the plot holes. I recognize the films for what they are: just films. Fun and cool films, but just films. Would it be cool if the plot was more coherent and consistent? Of course it would, but it really doesn't detract all that much from the experience as a whole.

WeirdRaptor · **Reply #32 on:** October 01, 2009, 10:13:07 PM

Again, saying that its "just fun fantasy" is a lame excuse. There is a reason the last movie didn't gross very much or anymore near as much as the previous two. That's because it was so stupid that audience members, like myself, couldn't suspend their beliefs as far as the films wanted, thus someone did say "it has to make sense".

Want an example of fantasy that makes perfect sense while being excellent? Take The Lord of the RIngs. J.R.R. Tolkien thought out every detail and gave reasons for everything before he okayed a scene for publification. If a guy on a limited budget, a full time that does not involve fictional book authoring, and a typewriter can plan his story in intricate detail before releasing it, then two rich Hollywood big shot writers whose full time jobs are to write fiction and have computers to do it with can do more forward planning, too. The writers have no excuse.

Also want an example of a well-written action-filled movie? The Dark Knight. If Nolan and co. can put that much into a comic book movie, then the writers of Pirates can do the same with the virtual blank slate, since its based on a ride.

All I wanted was a good film with a well thought out plot, definite good guys to root for, and fun material to enjoy all the while. I didn't get any of those things. What's the point if the "heroes" was just as scummy as the villains? What's the point if the plot has so many holes that it ceased to make any sense at all at some point? What's the point if the "fun" material is WAY too much Johnny on screen?

Believe me, the plot lacking coherence did detract from it. For both myself and many other people, I'm afraid. Just look at the gross for the last film as opposed to one and two. Its a lot less. So it does to pay to have more coherence than Pirates 3 offered backing your work.

Now, I will say that the first PIrates film was excellent. Pirates 2 was okay. 3, was terrible. The last one needed to be a little more mature in how it handled its material.

jedi472 · **Reply #33 on:** October 01, 2009, 10:35:01 PM

Toliken's depth and extreme attention to detail, while incredible, has been the primary reason some dislike his style. Some do not have the time or patience to get that into a world that, quite frankly, isn't real. Besides, you forget Tolkien was a freakin'
GENIUS. No one has even come close to his literary works, so why do you measure a
Disney film to his standard? And frankly, even though I know I just said Tolkien was a genius, his books tended to be very dull at times. Hell, half the story is the characters walking from place to place.

Why does everyone cite the Dark Knight as a coherant film? It has loads of flaws (though it's still awesome). For example, after Joker tosses Rachel off the roof of a skyscraper, only to have Batman follow her and land on a car instead (which makes no sense), Batman is never shown going back to deal with Joker. I mean, they literally just cut to a different scene with no explanation at all.

Why are you focusing on the negative? Do the positive and fun elements of the film just not exist for you?

WeirdRaptor · **Reply #34 on:** October 01, 2009, 10:45:37 PM

I'm not claiming that the writers should be geniuses on his level. What I'm saying is that they have more resources at their disposal to make sure they got the story right. All they had to do was reread their own material and look through with a critical eye for anything that's well-explained, then fix it. Its called editing and drafting and its among the first things you learn as a writer. If I, an ameteur who does not yet have a career in writing, knows that then I would expect two professionals to as well.

Also, people who don't have the patience to get into Tolkien's world: screw them!

Also, they didn't show Batmaqn going back to deal with the Joker its obvious that he and men booked before the dark knight could locate them again. And if you don't buy The Dark Knight, then BAtman Begins was plenty coherent and well-planned.

I'm not just focusing on the bad. The bad over-whelmed the good so much that I can't just ignore it. Besides, my wants for a decent film are not difficult to meet. Definite good guys, coherent plot, and good material. Pirates 3 delivered on none of those. Besides, what good qualities? The film was all back-stabbing and moral event horizens without any end or signs of human decency in sight.

jedi472 · **Reply #35 on:** October 01, 2009, 10:54:27 PM

Uh, the world is FULL of indecency and backstabbing. Chances are it'll influence our films. Besides, what's wrong with an antihero?

As for the scene in the Dark Knight, you assume that the Joker just left, but that still makes no sense, especially with all those hostages he could've taken or killed. And Batman Begins wasn't that coherant or logical. Bruce Wanye turned to crime, then got caught in Asia, got out, became a freaking NINJA, and became Batman for three reasons: his parents were killed, a girl turned him down, and he is afraid of bats. How does that make sense?

Tolkien's world, while one that I love, takes a great deal of time and thought to fully understand, time and thought most of us can't always spare.

You overlook another important fact: Tolkien, as far as I know, was never on a deadline. In any case, I'm sure he didn't have three years to make two sequels. Time is a factor in story creation, like it or not.

WeirdRaptor · **Reply #36 on:** October 01, 2009, 11:05:04 PM

Jack is no anti-hero by the time Pirates 3 came around. An anti-hero would actually do heroic things and do what is right, in spite of his or her self. Jack did not. He's a villain protagonist now.

I also don't care if backstabbing and indency exists in the world. That's the villains' job to backstab and betray. Not the good guys'. The good guys are supposed to be the ones who are better and are the ones doing the right thing when it all comes down to it. I want good guy characters in the lead, like in the first movie film in which Jack was an actual Anti-Hero in which he always did the right thing when push came to shove.
Also, didn't you say that these were fun fantasy with lots of action? So, does that not entail that they were detached from reality in some way? Pick an argument, already!

Actually if most people culdn't spare the thought to read and enjoy Tolkien's work, then it wouldn't have been the highest selling fictional book of the 20th century, so that assertion is just wrong. People who don 't like Tolkien just don't have good taste or the intelligence required.

The writers of PIrates weren't making a thousand page epic. They were making two two and a half hours films. Three years is suffient time so get the plots and scripts written and proof-read. They have no excuse. Reading, rereading, and editing are all part of basic writing. I would never allow a story that had such plot holes to be seen by any editor I was working with to okay, regardless of deadline, anyway, because I would already have planned the story and the details out before I even made a deal with a publisher to set a deadline then just fixed anything I misses. Why? Because I take pride in what I write.

Also, the Joker left because its obvious that he had no intention of getting caught up in a police siege just yet. He only allowed that to come to pass when he had planned it ahead of time.

jedi472 · **Reply #37 on:** October 01, 2009, 11:07:59 PM

I'm done. I could argue more, but I'll just agree to disagree and get on with life. Everyone can't like everything, and I'm cool with that.

By the way, I'd like to see of you've actually written anything, just so you might have the tables flipped on you for once.

Mumbling · **Reply #38 on:** October 02, 2009, 12:44:56 AM

Quote from: Belmont2500,Oct 2 2009 on 12:23 AM

this could've been photoshoped and considering the way the 3rd movie ended I seriously doubt there will be a Pirates Of The Carribean 4 but the POTC series is pretty succesful fo a 4th film might be pretty good.

POTC ended with Jack sailing away with the map to the fountain of youth. I think that actually begs for a 4th movie!

jedi472 · **Reply #39 on:** October 02, 2009, 08:29:54 PM

Okay, I've got to respond one last time.

In defense of myself, I tried to use the "it's just fun fantasy" reason earlier, but you shot it down with "that's a lame excuse", which I guess is just your opinion. So, I tried to use another argument instead. Anyway, I said it was fun fantasy. I never said the fun revolved around good guys. I get a kick out of some of the evil deeds villains pull, and Jack's side-switching was kind of enjoyable, if only for it's sheer unpredictability.

As for Tolkien, I mentioned that time was the factor, not thought. And, not that I dislike Tolkien's works (I reread the books at least once every 3 months or so), but they do tend to be filled with a lot of prose. It's not that bad, but it can get in the way. That's just my opinion.

As for the writing, I have to agree that the writers must not have put much thought into the film, but I also understand that they had 3 years (or less, depending on when Disney wanted 'em ready) to write, shoot, and edit 2 movies. That's not that much time for one team.

You know, I don't really know why I'm defending this film. It's my least favorite out of the Pirates films (although it's got better music than Dead Man's Chest), and it's pretty mediocre overall. I do object to comparing it to The Lord of the Rings and the Dark Knight, if only because those works are on a whole different level, and Pirates was primarily a cash cow, not a work of art.

Anyway, I guess I'm just not as much of a perfectionist as you are.