The Gang of Five
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Audio File Formats

Manny Cav

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My only other question is the "320 Kbps overkill issue." Even the big companies seem to favor 128 Kbps for their MP3 files in their games. Am I not improving the quality at all by using 320 Kbps over 196 or whatever Kbps?


action9000

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How much quality is too much quality?
That is one of the ultimate debates in digital audio.  A full answser would take more space than this forum will allow for and would require more research than I'm willing to sit down and do.

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Am I not improving the quality at all by using 320 Kbps over 196 or whatever Kbps?
The use of 320kbps over, say, 192 kbps will *Always*, *Always* improve quality.  Why?  320kbps is capturing a more accurate image of the original source sound than the 192 is, every single time, no matter what the original source it.

The question is, how important is the gain in quality?  If you analyze two mp3s graphically, one with 192 kbps and one with 320 kbps, you will Definitely seem some differences.  The higher-quality the source material, the more differences you will see.  This is because at lower bitrates, mp3 starts cutting out the detail in the higher frequencies in order to compress the data, even to the point of removing them entirely.

Let's have a little fun, shall we?  Here are a couple of images:
Here is a spectrogram (the multicoloured box that is the focus of these images) of an excerpt from "Rescue, Discovery of the Great Valley".  It is read as such:

From lowest frequencies (20Hz and lower, "bass") to the highest frequencies (20kHz and higher, "treble"), read from the bottom to the top of the spectrogram.  Black signifies little to no data in that frequency range.  A slight volume level is indicated by purple, then blue, green, yellow, orange and red.  The closer the colour is to red, the more audio content of that particular frequency exists.

Anyway, here are the screenshots:  This first one is of a .wav directly ripped from the CD. This is completely lossless and is not compressed in any way.  Note the quantity of data in the red box I drew on the image, especially.


Next up is an image of the same part of the music, encoded to a 320 kbps mp3.  Again, note the quantity of data in the box I drew.  The amount of data in the extremely high frequencies is significantly less than that in the lossless rip.  Some data in the extreme ranges of the original .wav is completely gone in the 320 mp3.


Lastly, here is the .wav encoded to a 192 kbps mp3.  Here we really see the difference between a 320 mp3 and a 192 mp3.  Notice how much data has been removed from the audio in the higher ranges especially.  Think: If this much data is removed from the higher ranges, how much have the slightly lower ranges been distorted?  How much damage has been done to the audio by using this much compression?  The answer, mathematically, is "quite a bit".


Whether or not you can hear this difference depends on your listening style, focus, and "pickyness".  It also depends on the quality of equipment you're using to play back the audio (namely, speakers).  Low-quality speakers won't show a difference between a 160 kbps and a 320 kbps mp3, whereas a more expensive system will, especially if the listener is listening for this difference.


In reality, mostof what is being cut out by a 192 kbps mp3 is inaudible to the human ear (most people's ears anyway) because it is such high frequencies.  Depending on who you are, this difference is more or less obvious.  A young child would have an easier time telling a 192 mp3 from a 320 mp3 than a 30-year-old would in most cases.

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Even the big companies seem to favor 128 Kbps for their MP3 files in their games.
This is interesting.  I can't think of any examples off-hand of games that use 128 kbps mp3s.  Are you talking about newer games?  Older games may have used more compression in order to reduce the overall size of the game on the hard drive. Most new games don't care about how much space they take up anymore. :P:


Manny Cav

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Quote from: action9000,Nov 25 2007 on  09:52 PM
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Even the big companies seem to favor 128 Kbps for their MP3 files in their games.
This is interesting.  I can't think of any examples off-hand of games that use 128 kbps mp3s.  Are you talking about newer games?  Older games may have used more compression in order to reduce the overall size of the game on the hard drive. Most new games don't care about how much space they take up anymore. :P:
SimCity 4 comes off of the top of my head. I might could find more examples, if you wish. :p But, yeah, I was pretty sure there was a difference between 320 Kbps MP3 and 196 Kbps. I think I'll stick with my current method untill I see reason to change.

And, in my opinion, there would be no such thing as too much quality, were it not for file space constraints....


Petrie.

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Whether or not you can hear this difference depends on your listening style, focus, and "pickyness". It also depends on the quality of equipment you're using to play back the audio (namely, speakers). Low-quality speakers won't show a difference between a 160 kbps and a 320 kbps mp3, whereas a more expensive system will, especially if the listener is listening for this difference.


In reality, mostof what is being cut out by a 192 kbps mp3 is inaudible to the human ear (most people's ears anyway) because it is such high frequencies. Depending on who you are, this difference is more or less obvious. A young child would have an easier time telling a 192 mp3 from a 320 mp3 than a 30-year-old would in most cases.

This is the kicker in the whole thing Tim laid out.  The graphs are (prettty) though baloney....if you can't hear it, it really doesn't matter in the end if the sound goes all the way to 22khz and you can't hear anything over 17khz.  That's why I said if you can go lossless, no harm, no foul because nothing's been touched.  For lossy and on the road in portables none of these graphs matter.  You are not going to hear sub-bass or super tweeters on the road.

The problem here is you're using goldwave, which I know will not touch wma lossless (or probably any lossless format).  What you can do is decode the files into wav for editing purposes when they arise.  Its an extra step, but you're not working with compressed music.


Manny Cav

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Quote from: Petrie,Nov 26 2007 on  05:58 AM
The problem here is you're using goldwave, which I know will not touch wma lossless (or probably any lossless format).  What you can do is decode the files into wav for editing purposes when they arise.  Its an extra step, but you're not working with compressed music.
Not necessarily Goldwave (thought that's also likely), but any program like that. Despite the fact that my music gets used mostly for listening, a habit which has gradually increased over time, that's not my ultimate goal. I was sure that MP3 would be widely supported, while I had my doubts on WMA. If there was a way I could easily convery WMA to 320-128 or whatever MP3 with any program (Goldwave?), then I might could get away with WMA. The current software I use is limited to 12 Kbps. There's no option to decide the bitrate output that I know of.

And as far as "on the road in portables go, I don't have a portable media player [the 3 closest things to that that I might use are car CD/cassett players, a protable cassett tape player/recorder, and a laptop computer, none of which ever touch my music collection on the go].


Petrie.

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If there was a way I could easily convery WMA to 320-128 or whatever MP3 with any program (Goldwave?), then I might could get away with WMA. The current software I use is limited to 12 Kbps. There's no option to decide the bitrate output that I know of.

I could give you one that would do it. :)  I use foobar as my command-line encoder and I've pretty much set it up to work with anything you'd need (wma, mp3, ogg, flac, wav).  It doesn't need to be installed to run.  Let me know.


Manny Cav

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...What is "Foobar?" Is it a program that can convert from lossless WMA to 320 Kbps MP3, among other things?


Petrie.

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Quote from: Manny Cav,Nov 26 2007 on  10:16 PM
...What is "Foobar?" Is it a program that can convert from lossless WMA to 320 Kbps MP3, among other things?
It's only the best audio player on the planet (IMO), but it can be set to convert audio formats to all sorts of other file types if you have the executables to run.  I can send you a zip that's set to have everything you'd need.  You can try it...you don't like it, try it as an audio player and not a converter.  Still don't like it...delete it.


Manny Cav

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Would the download at the official site at http://www.foobar2000.org/ not be adequate to do converting like that?


Petrie.

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For Manny and anyone else who wants to try it:

http://download.yousendit.com/8B75843B4450DB1E

When you first open it, you add files going to File and then Add Files.  Once files are added into the playlist, you can right click on any one of them and select "Convert to" all the way at the bottom of the list.  Then you have your choice of formats.  A couple of the mp3 presets I had set for specific purposes (the 128 cbr and youtube one)...you don't want those, the one you want for mp3 encoding is the V2 one.  ;)  Have fun!


Petrie.

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Quote from: Manny Cav,Nov 26 2007 on  10:28 PM
Would the download at the official site at http://www.foobar2000.org/ not be adequate to do converting like that?
Yes, but I'd suggest you take my download...I've set it up already to have all the executables set and included...you won't need to do all the switches and setup yourself...I saved you a hell of a lot of work.  ;)


Manny Cav

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EDIT: Whoops, you posted ahead of me. Anyway, does that contain all of the executables (.exe files and whatever) to fully install the program, or is it just an entire "Program Files" folder that you have used?


Petrie.

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All the exe files are for the encoder portion....foobar is already set to point to the files in the folder "Converter" so don't mess with it. ;)  Its all set up to go.  You have to set it all up yourself if you just download from the main site...you wouldn't have a clue as to what to do so I did it all for you.


Manny Cav

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I'll download it when I can get a hold of a broadband internet connection. ;)


Manny Cav

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Whoops! It sounds to me like it might not work on my computer. I'm on XP (but I'm always in wonder of how much longer that will last...). Mabey I won't encounter any problems....

EDIT: Alright, so you removed the link. Can the original download from http://www.foobar2000.org/ do what I want it to, and if not, where can I find these "plug-ins?"


Petrie.

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http://download.yousendit.com/8B75843B4450DB1E

This is the link.  The reason I took it off is because of the couple of things below you have to do.

You must put the folder 'foobar 0.9.5b' in C:\Program Files\ otherwise the encoder won't work.  :rolleyes:  That's my fault.  

Also, you need to tell it what you use for a soundcard for it to play any music.  Go to 'File' then 'Preferences'.  On the list you should see something called 'Output', click that and you have an option to choose your sound output device.  System default is whatever you use.  Click save and exit.


Petrie.

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Now that I think about it since I may not get online for the rest of the day, I'm just going to give small directions for you to try the encoder now.

1.) go to 'file' and 'add files' first
2.) once they've been added, right click and there is a large dialog box; go to the bottom for "Convert to", hover over 'Convert to...'  This will give you the option to save the files where you want to.
3.) then you choose the encoding preset; Choose mp3 (LAME) -V2, fast.  This setting is variable-bit rate and will usually average 190kbps depending on the music.  This is transparent for just about everyone...you cannot tell the difference between this setting and the original CD.
4.) Leave the replay-gain, dsp processing boxes all unchecked...you don't need them enabled.
5.) Hit Ok, and then you'll be asked to choose where you want to save the file.  Choose a folder, and hit OK and you're done.  If you see a warning about transcoding, that means one of more of your files is not from a lossless source; it is ok to continue but transcoding usually results in bad sounding files.  Only use lossless sources if that's possible.


That's it. :)  Easy.  And it'll 'eat' just about any audio file format you throw at it.  Just an FYI do not choose the cbr 128kbps or youtube modified profiles for mp3.  The cbr is for uploads to an internet radio station and the youtube one is for audio ripped from youtube.  Neither are good for quality.