Anyone here ever read Tolkien?

[Saft]

Thanks for this additional link Kor, when I have time I'll look through it.

[Saft]

May I ask, of your opinion regarding who the true hero of Middle Earth was due to destroying the ring?

I'd be interested.

[Kor]

You mean who the true hero was who destroyed or helped to destroy the ring?  That is a hard one maybe.  One would say Frodo maybe.  But as I read on another website or forum years ago (forgot which) Frodo was ensnared by the ring from the start, like Isildur had been, though he did, like Isildur, get to Mt. Doom he could not throw the ring in.  Gullum was long ensnared and enslaved by the ring so his taking the ring with him into the magma of Mt. Doom was not his intention.  The only one who wasn't ensnared by the ring was Samwise, who rejected the ring when it tried to ensnare him.  & he was always there for Frodo.  My guess he would have been able to throw the ring into the magma if he had been given a choice.

[Nick22]

There was in my opinion, no true singular hero. all played their part.. gandalf Agaorn and the Fellowship played thier parts by holding Sauron's gaze anfd fighting his forces long enough for sam, Frodo and Golllum to reach mt Doom.

[Malte279]

In the book Faramir also proves quite resistant to the ring when he states that he would not take it if he saw it lying on the side of a road the moment he realizes that Frodo has the ring. They changed this very much in the movie as it was felt that this attitude would disenchant the power of the ring too much. Of course Faramir was not quite as exposed to the ring as Samwise was.
I suppose that something was at work with the destruction of the ring that was not under the control of Frodo, Gollum, or the ring. I think Gandalf explained that Bilbo got the ring because he was meant to find it. I'm generally very suspicious of any thoughts of predestination but I think that Tolkien may well have had something like that in mind.

[Compy-Rex]

Yeah, I love LoTR.

[Kor]

That was likely a bit of retconing since he wanted the hobbit to fit into the lord of the rings.  Like the way he took out some chapters and rewrite them to fit in with the lord of the rings.

It could be said that the ring left Gollum since it was trying to get back to it's master, as I think has been mentioned somewhere, forgot where.  It could be it was hoping some orc would find it, but instead Bilbo did by chance.  If one wants to stretch things a bit one could say, though it would be a real stretch, that some maia, or valar or Illuvator himself subtly did something so Bilbo was knocked off of the dwarf that was holding him so the ring could be found by Bilbo and not an orc, but that would be a real stretch.

Maybe part of the reason it left Isuldur, hoping to be found by the orcs who were nearby, but since Isuldur was in a river or lake, forgot which, it fell to the bottom where it could not be found by them.  & it tried to leave Bilbo & think when he was near one of the entrances to the orc/goblin lair, but since his hand was in his pocket it just fell off of his finger & stayed in his pocket and failed again.

[Nick22]

the ring had a will of its own, and it left Gollum after it had totally warped his mind.. it had started to warp bilboo as well when he left after his 111th birthday, ans he had had the ring for only 60 years, a mere fraction of the time Gollum had had it, roughly about 500 years by my count.

[Saft]

I have been thinking about my response to the question that I asked initially and although I do agree with what Nick mentioned regarding that there was no single true hero in evolvement in the Ring Wars, I do feel that if it hadn't have been for Sam, Frodo would never have gotten as far as he did.  He would have either died or would not have been able to resist the ring's influence as much as he had done.  Sam was (although a hero of the ring war) a true friend.  

Focusing on Gollum, it is a shame that although the Smeagol part of him had banished the Gollum side, and thus was able to resist the ring to a certain degree it is sad that the Gollum side returned in a moment of weakness. As I think Gollum/Smeagol would have redeemed himself to some degree.

[Nick22]

Unfortunately for Gollum the ring had nearly completely destroyed him.. he had had it for so long that he was completely addicted to it. even had he dropped the ring in of his own free will and survived the war, he would have never been free of his need for it.. and given his age (nearly 600 years) he probably wouldn't have lived long afterwards without the ring anyway.. he was nmiserable with the ring, and miserable without it..

[Kor]

If he had lived it is possible the Valor may have been able to do something.  I read somewhere, forgot where, that is what Tolkein said ultimately happened to Bilbo, Frodo & Sam.  The went to Valinor and the effects of the ring was removed from them & they lived normal lifespans in Valinor.  

I wonder if any of them were live when Gimi and Legolas went to Valinor.  I think I read somewhere that Gimli was the only dwarf who went to Valinor.  Maybe due to Galadriel and maybe Gandalf's putting in a good word or something.

[Saft]

Yes, I was thinking a long that sort of theory Kor.  So, thank you for explaining it much better than I.  

Whilst I understand that the ring had caused an ever lasting effect on Gollum, I thought that there could have been some hope for him to live out his final term of his life in peace and harmony.  That is, if he had survived and not had given in once again to the corruption and control of the ring.

I remember that Sam left for Valinor after his wife had died.  And Gimli and Legolas went to Valinor after years of travelling together so perhaps they did re meet with one another?

[Nick22]

Gandalf said that there was little hope for Gollum being cured before he died, although that was using the powers available in Middle Earth. I'm not sure where Gollum ended up after he died. Given that the Valar were able to cure Biblo Frodo and SAm, its entirely possible they could have cured Gollum as well. as for living a normal lifespan, Bilbo was 131,, so he wouldn't have lived much longer even after having been cured. Frodo could have been still alive when Sam went, it was only around 30 years after Frodo left that Sam left, IIRC,, but even had it been 50 years fRodo would have been around 100 years old..

[Saft]

Also another question, one that my sister asked me but I failed to answer as I wasn't sure.  

Is it possible that once the elves had reached Valinor could they return to Middle Earth?

[Nick22]

Well, without the ring to corrupt him, I do think the Smeagol part would have gained ascendency. I don't know where he would have gone afterwards, perhaps he would have settled in the Shire, or more likely, gone WEst with Fodo and Gandalf..

[Nick22]

i'm not sure myself, but my reading of the trology was that once the Elves reached Valinor they never reutyrned to Middle eArth. which is why the songs warned Legolas about heeding the white gulls call, because then he would never be happy in Middle Earth again.

[Saft]

If he had died wouldn't he have gone to the halls of Mandos?  Or is that only for elves when they die?  And if so, where do the other races of Middle Earth go when they die?

Gandalf said that there was little hope for Gollum being cured before he died, although that was using the powers available in Middle Earth. I'm not sure where Gollum ended up after he died. Given that the Valar were able to cure Biblo Frodo and SAm, its entirely possible they could have cured Gollum as well. as for living a normal lifespan, Bilbo was 131,, so he wouldn't have lived much longer even after having been cured. Frodo could have been still alive when Sam went, it was only around 30 years after Frodo left that Sam left, IIRC,, but even had it been 50 years fRodo would have been around 100 years old..

But hope no matter how small, can still be hope.  Yet, you are right Nick when you mention that although the powers on Middle Earth would not have been able to cure him the Valar could have done, if Gollum had lived.

You see, what I'm trying to explain, is that I feel that even if there is a very 'evil' character (ie:Gollum) then there is still some remenance of good left in them (ie:Smeagol).

[Saft]

i'm not sure myself, but my reading of the trology was that once the Elves reached Valinor they never reutyrned to Middle eArth. which is why the songs warned Legolas about heeding the white gulls call, because then he would never be happy in Middle Earth again.

Yes, I remember that.  It is a pity that Tolkien did not explain as much as that.

[Nick22]

Mandos is for elves I believe.. Gollum was a hobbit-like creature.. and I don't think tolkien mentions a special place for hobbits, like he does for dwarves and elves..
 yes there was hioipe, but it was slim.. Gollum had almost no free will left. yes , his smegaol side would have taken over after the loss of the ring, and that side was the decent side, the side that was rarely allowed out..

[Saft]

Yes, the Smeagol side would probably would have purged the Gollum side as it broke free of the (ring's) Gollum influence.  It is sad that he was not given that chance.