Mary-sues

Amaranthine · **on:** October 05, 2008, 11:46:55 PM

I have been talking with a few friends about mary-sues and what not. Over the years practically almost every single person that is into fanfictions or any stories at all are all mary-sue obsesseed. (i.e newer fandoms like Wall-E and Avatar) if you go on some forums about those subjects or any other subjects you are likely to get those people that hate mary-sues. I love this one quote a friend of mine said: "If you can accept mary-sues for who they are, you can accept anyone."

I'm not trying to make this sound like a rant, but man I just get tired of all of these mary-sue trashers that go let all worked up if your character has even just one mary-sue trait.

No I didn't put a poll here.

but what are your opinions about mary-sues?

lbt/cty_lover · **Reply #1 on:** October 05, 2008, 11:51:38 PM

I'm not a fan of Mary-sues, but I hate Mary-sue trashers. This one trashed spoiled Brisingr for me just because in the first chapter of my new fan-fic, he thought my main character was a Mary-sue.

Serris · **Reply #2 on:** October 05, 2008, 11:54:14 PM

I don't like them but I do not bash them.

Seriously, if you do not have have anything constructive or nice to say, don't say it.

But many people, it seems, regard Mary-Sues as the hallmark of poor writing.

pokeplayer984 · **Reply #3 on:** October 06, 2008, 01:02:42 AM

The reason people hate Mary-Sue and Gary-Stu characters is because they are uncreative. What it boils down to is them being Mr./Ms. Perfect for real. On top of that, there's more.

Certain shippings being ruined because of this PERFECT character being around. The main boy/girl falls for them and the main love interest of the main character has no problem with Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu stealing their future bride/groom.

Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu holds powers that even God himself would envy of having.

Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu is immortal.

There's even alot more that I can't think off the top of my head, but it ends up showing one thing about the writer:

They are uncreative and unimaginative when it comes to think up characters. Not to mention that the plot of such is repetitive and boring by now. No originality shows no imagination. No imagination shows an uninteresting story.

And that's what it comes down to in the end. THAT is why they are hated.

aabicus (LettuceBacon&Tomato) · **Reply #4 on:** October 06, 2008, 01:35:19 AM

You wanna see a Mary Sue? Read My Immortal. It's got some risque scenes, but they're so badly written you won't notice, trust me.

landbeforetimelover · **Reply #5 on:** October 06, 2008, 01:41:08 AM

Yeah, I don't like them but I can handle a trait or two from ONE character in a story. If they're all like that, I just don't even finish reading the story and leave. It's not in my nature to comment on someone's work unless I like it or I can give some good pointers. In the case of a Mary-Sue, there's no hope. Those people just don't have the gift of writing. They don't need a bunch of people bashing them to learn that. All they have to do is realize "wow, over 23,000 people have viewed my story and I've only gotten 3 good reviews. I must not be a very good writer." I mean, if the story just has some weak points and I have some suggestions, I'll make them but if the story in question is hopeless, just don't leave a good review and the author will take the hint.

LBTFan13 · **Reply #6 on:** October 06, 2008, 03:23:43 PM

I'm pretty much the same as everybody here. I don't like Mary-sues, but I will accept them because I don't feel like complaining senslessly about them.

The one Mary-sue that I like and can understand his character is Neo from the Matrix. Obviously, since he is The One, he is going to have amazing abilities, but he still is human enough to get hurt. It's just really hard to hurt him, that's all.

Amaranthine · **Reply #7 on:** October 06, 2008, 03:26:44 PM

While I get everyone else's view points about mary-sues, I just want to say, I think people get too obsessed with what the people want and don't even enjoy their writing and what they are doing. If you become too obsessed with other people think, then why bother doing anything creative at all? Creativity=expression. That's how I see it.

lbt/cty_lover · **Reply #8 on:** October 06, 2008, 04:14:57 PM

This might seem a little weird, but Achilles was technically a mary-sue. He was pretty much immortal, he was an amazing fighter.

When writing, if you have a Mary-sue, just keep writing. Don't care if the character seems to lack creativity. Make up that lost creativity with an amazing plot, with lots of unique flares. If you can't, kill off the Mary-sue and work from there.

One of the worst ways to kill of a Mary-sue is with another Mary-sue. If you're going to kill off a "perfect" character, don't make another "perfect" character to do the job for you. I personally would use divine intervention. If the character has powers that gods would envy, then let the gods smote the character.

Come to think of it, wouldn't gods be Mary-sues? They are immortal, they have powers that gods would envy (if the gods that are envious don't have those powers and want them really badly), and they are pretty much perfect.

I seem to go off on the first thought that enters my mind. Well, not anymore. I can't think of anything to continue off of from my last statement that still relates to Mary-sues.

Speaking of Mary-sues, I was reading this fan-fiction that was making fun of Mary-sues in general. It wasn't bashing any one Mary-sue, but the concept of Mary-sues in general.

I have to agree, though, that Mary-sues are possibly a sign of lack of creativity. It might mean that the writer is focusing more on the plot, but it probably means that the writer isn't that creative yet. Speaking of creativity, a good way of handling Mary-sues is by removing whatever makes them Mary-sues, thereby making them normal characters, and therefore are more susceptible to character development.

crazedwriter · **Reply #9 on:** October 07, 2008, 01:21:00 PM

I will admit my first fan fiction efforts were horribly Mary Sue. Now I know better.

I've found an interesting article on Mary Sue and self-insertion, and I consult it before I write one line of fan fiction.

Do I still read Mary Sueist fanfics? Sometimes, if the character is not that distracting from the overall plotline. Do I trash others' Mary Sue stories? Not really since I've gotten bashed myself. Then again, such criticism if taken well will spark the writer's imagination and creativity that much more. Better characters, please, not one-dimensional, boring, cookie-cutter Mr and Ms Perfect who never suffer as much as a hangnail.

Malte279 · **Reply #10 on:** October 07, 2008, 05:49:42 PM

Interesting characters are rarely perfect and even those of the best intentions should not overcome problems too easily (or may fail at them altogether). One cannot be totaly objective about the own stories I'm afraid, but I think the problem of Mary Sues has been avoided in most of mine with characters either showing nasty traits along with their positive ones, or even if they are meaning well they may either be unable to do what they would or else blunder in the attempt. A character so perfect that he or she overcomes everything without any difficulty at all is not exactly to be a subject of admiration (though possibly of envy) for it is the overcoming of difficulties and the trouble it takes to do so which is usually to be admired.

Ptyra · **Reply #11 on:** October 07, 2008, 07:09:15 PM

I guess I'm rest-assured that I don't have a Mary-Sue in my book. Or if I do and don't know it, it's at a really low level. The main character's 'belle' is such a jerk you'd wonder why they're a couple. I plan on making it as original as possible. All my couples WILL have some big problems, so there is not a 'happily' ever after. There are two bits that I don't want to do what-so-ever, but I'm doing it anyway

. I don't know a lot of Mary-Sues, but I will avoid it at any cost.

lbt/cty_lover · **Reply #12 on:** October 07, 2008, 08:03:32 PM

The thing is, with me, I can't really tell if either of my main characters are Mary-sues. As your article said, crazedwriter,

Quote

All characters that we write are animated by putting little pieces of ourselves into them. There is no other way to make a character come alive. If we do not invest a little bit of ourselves into them, they will at best be forgettable cardboard comparses.

However, I'm not sure if I inserted too much of my personality into my main characters. Could an experienced fan-fiction writer check my fan-fictions and see if Vylon (Riders Before the Pact) or Oridia (Tales of a Dragonkeeper) seem to be Mary-sues in your eyes? I'm only asking this to see how I can improve my writing in the future. It's a little too late to change the stories, but at least I can move forward on the right foot. Plus, I can think of how my plots will develop later on.

jedi472 · **Reply #13 on:** October 07, 2008, 08:54:22 PM

Personally, I'm not into Mary-Sues and would prefer someone to tell me if one of my characters is becoming one, but like many I won't openly criticize them unless they are ridiculously blatant.

Coyote_A · **Reply #14 on:** October 08, 2008, 12:05:20 AM

The plot of the fanfic must not be fully based on this "Mary-sue" idea(Through i never heard that this phenomenon has a name

). Oftenly the fanfic writer makes original characters blush and very different from their true self. That's i believe is a main reason why i'm personally trying to avoid reading any fanfiction, that contains "Mary-sues".

LBTFan13 · **Reply #15 on:** November 13, 2008, 05:46:50 PM

Quote from: lbt/cty_lover,Oct 6 2008 on 03:14 PM

This might seem a little weird, but Achilles was technically a mary-sue. He was pretty much immortal, he was an amazing fighter.

This is in no way to bash you at all. I do agree with the fact that he was kind of Mary-sueish, but here are my reasons as to why technically he wasn't.

The only reason he was pretty much immortal was because his mother dipped him in the River Styx in order to grant him immortality. Of course, hence his name, his Achilles Tendon was the only spot in which he could be killed in because that part of his body was not dipped in.

Also, yes he is an amazing fighter, but he only fights in three major battles in the movie. They really didn't use him as much as they could of, but when they did he did indeed wreck people.

But then again, everybody has their own opinion and I respect yours

Malte279 · **Reply #16 on:** November 13, 2008, 09:42:10 PM

Correct me if I am mistaken, but doesn't Mary Sue, apart from the character's being pretty much perfect and invincible, carry the meaning that the character is an idealized version of the author of a story? Does not a Mary Sue have to be perfect in practically every respect rather than being just very strong or the like?
In case of Achill we have a character who was extremely strong and almost invincible, but he did have his flaws. Even the very first stanzas of Homer's original verses are about the wrath of Achill (on Agamemnon) which caused so much suffering for his own people. Apart from this wrath he defies Gods on some occasions (which ultimately contributes to his end). One must be careful not to impose too many values from modern times on a character from ages where different values were upheld. The willingness of characters from the Illiad (and many other sagas' characters) to be butchered sometimes even without a cause is not too Mary Sueish. Achill as an idealized version of Homer (if indeed he was the author) may be doubted, though it cannot be entirely disprooven. Homer was by the few records we have a blind artist (not much of a similarity to Achill there) while other than that we know hardly anything about him.

Ozymandias · **Reply #17 on:** November 16, 2008, 07:29:34 AM

Hmmmm...I wonder if this is why I get little to no response for the presence of my fanfic, Chronicles of The Balaur. http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3782187/1/The_...s_of_The_Balaur

I was merely trying to put together a wild and interesting storyline mixing together some of my favorite things, and I guess I created a few characters that some might regard as Mary-Sues.

I'm not sure, because despite what I've read, my definition of a Mary-Sue is still a bit foggy. Plus I'm a diagnosed Aspie, and gauging what it is that people enjoy or like to read has always been tough for me.