The Gang of Five
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Should a future villain kill Doc?

LittlefootAndAliTogether

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Should a future LBT villain kill off Doc?  How would Littlefoot take it if his hero were slain?  Would it be interesting if Doc tried to tell Littlefoot to carry on for him before he died?

Should Doc instead just die of old age or something and ask Littlefoot to continue his legacy?
Should Doc not die at all?


jansenov

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I can envision one tale where Doc's death would be meaningful. A story which teaches that, sometimes, heroism can't save you or your loved ones, but it is still the right thing to do.


Ducky123

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I totally agree with you. That would be a great "wisdom" to be taught :yes Not to mention that'd make it an emotional movie, probably...
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Malte279

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There are so many stories about heroic self-sacrifices that the martyrs really are legion. I would be hard pressed however to name stories in which someone is still considered a hero when refusing to sacrifice his own life if given the chance to do so. Are those who don't commit suicide for whatever "greater good" to be frowned upon as cowards?
Stories keep telling us that there are things worth dying for, but things worth living for rarely get the same kind of appreciation :unsure:


DarkHououmon

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I can see why sacrificial stories are more common and why it's not common to find stories where a person still considered a hero when they refused to sacrifice. To explain it very briefly, I'll just ask this question: when given the chance to save one life or a hundred lives, which path do you think is most appropriate?


Malte279

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I can see that too and I don't mean to depriciate the self-sacrificing as a story telling device altogether. It can be really powerful and emotional too. I've thought of many such scenarios myself (still do sometimes) and don't want to discard it altogether. I apologize if my post sounded too much like that was what I meant.
However it has perhaps become a bit overused. It seems like self-sacrifice is becoming a little too frequent and almost ritualized in some story / movie genres. Of course there is the important aspect of "sacrificing oneself so many others may live", but especially in our time when we see so many people blow themselves up for their perverted vision of a greater good I wonder if it is not time to also give some credit to those who embrace live so much that in certain situations we would frown upon them as cowards.
When in the prospect of death a character is reduced to an uncontrolably sobbing wretch all shaking and quivering, worse even if that character fails to deliver (that is sacrifice himself) this character would be looked down upon by most people. I find this a bit sad. I feel a lot of pity for such a character who wants to cling to dear live with those whom he loves and who fears the uncertainty of what may or may not come after giving that last full measure of devotion. There is something very human about fear of death and will to live which I fear is too often just presented as a means to an end along the lines of "you must live to fulfill your mission" rather than as a value of its own. Living because one wants to live may even be interpreted as selfish in some stories even if it does not cause the death of others. I have a great deal of understanding for those who value their lives high enough not to be exaggeratedly ready to cast it away in a blaze of perceived glory possibly felt also by some of those who press the trigger button to a bomb strapped around their bodies.


jansenov

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Sacrificing one's life to save other lives is not what I meant. The way I envisioned the story, the situation is such that there is no way for the character to survive (so there is no way to quit) and the character cannot save his loved one(s) no matter what he does. He is trully and utterly doomed. Still he chooses to do all that he can.

The moral of the story is that you sometimes can't make things right no matter what you do. And you still do what you can.

For example, an epic struggle of Doc and some other leafeaters (including Dara) with sharpteeth, where the sharpteeth eventually win, as it so often happened in real life. The Gang survives this chaotic ordeal (not being in the "heat of battle"), but not quite the same emotionally.

I think the suicide bomber comparison was not necessary.


rhombus

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Sacrificing one's life to save other lives is not what I meant. The way I envisioned the story, the situation is such that there is no way for the character to survive (so there is no way to quit) and the character cannot save his loved one(s) no matter what he does. He is trully and utterly doomed. Still he chooses to do all that he can.

The moral of the story is that you sometimes can't make things right no matter what you do. And you still do what you can.

I must say that I find that idea to be quite interesting.  If such a premise was explored in a new Land Before Time film then it would certainly evoke some of the darker and more introspective aspects that haven't been exploited since the first film.

It reminds me of the saying: "Character is what you are in the dark."  A true mark of character is sacrificing yourself (or your time, money, or efforts, as the case may be) for a cause without any expectation of reward, self-promotion, or praise.  This could be something that such a loss could teach the children.  I can certainly see Petrie begin to compare the actions of Doc in this case to that of Pterano, for example.  I can also easily see one of the adults cautioning the kids that they shouldn't focus too much on how Doc and his herd died, as it is how we live our lives that truly matters.  The reason why such a sacrifice would be noble is because it was representative of who he was and what he stood for as opposed to simply being an act of self-sacrifice made in the heat of the moment.

I can see a lot of potential in the idea.  :yes


Go ahead and check out my fanfictions, The Seven Hunters, Songs of the Hunters, and Menders Tale.


Malte279

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I think the suicide bomber comparison was not necessary.
Maybe not necessary since it was prone to be misunderstood as me comparing any kind of self sacrifice (no matter how lofty the goal) with such despicable acts of terrorism. That is not what I meant.
However, certain mechanisms in our own adorsion for characters who sacrifice their own lives going down usually fighting against huge oposing armies and the adorsion which by certain people is given to people who commit such acts are not 100% different (which is not to say that there weren't any differences).
What does annoy me to some degree is that we are sometimes extremely uncritical about the concept of a heroic sacrifice and that concept, so common in fiction, is so often being abused when sending people to die in war.
People who really, really want to live and therefore are not quite as ready to sacrifice if not for their own dear lives are usually regarded with some degree of contempt for their "cowardice" while even in case of movies about such senseless slaughters as those of WW1 the image of tenthousands of young people senselessly slaughtered in the muddy mess of the trenches is more common to evoke some kind of sense of glory which I don't feel is a fair to those so pointlessly slaughtered.
Even back then one of them, Wilfred Owen (who was shot just a few days before the end of that war) put it in a poem which shows all his despise for the way the sense of glory was abused to the end of this horrible war:
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Dulce et decorum est                                           
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,                                 
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.

Gas! Gas! Quick, boys!–An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime...
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,–
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
One may argue, of course, that in case of movie sacrifices the purpose of the sacrifice is usually much more direct (safe the life of a friend or the like) than it is in case of war. But the mechanisms of thought, this fascination for giving up on live, this yearning for a glorioius death is not written on an entirely different page in an entirely different book.
Like I said, I don't mean to discredid the entire concept of self-sacrifice in fiction. It has however been overused to some degree. In many genres it is getting ever more difficult to find stories without that kind of self sacrifice. Personally I would enjoy seeing a few more "cowards" as characters not deserving only contempt. There are such characters, but very rare they are.