The Gang of Five
The Land Before Time => LBT Projects => Topic started by: action9000 on April 19, 2006, 01:02:36 AM
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Howdy, another LBT midi in the works! Here's some preliminary work on "No One Has to be Alone" B)
Malte, this version has been fixed up a bit from the one I sent you a couple of months ago.
http://www.angelfire.com/az3/action9000/index.html (http://www.angelfire.com/az3/action9000/index.html)
Please leave any comments as to the volumes of the instruments. I'm not sure how this sounds on your various sound cards. I've done my best to balance it for as many midi synthesizers as I can, but if anything before 1:03 in the midi sounds out-of-balance (the piano is too loud or too soft, the melody is too loud or too soft, etc.), or if any instruments seem inappropriate, please let me know so I can fix it for the final release. :D
It's complete up to about 1:03. Ignore any imperfections after this point.
Enjoy! :DD
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Maybe the mainvoice could be introduced at a slightly lower volume at 0:14 not to make to great a contrast to the introduction (just a suggestion).
Again you are doing an awesome job Tim! :yes
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Now that I have a much improved soundcard, I can actually be an official midi tester now. :D
Like Malte, I agree...the main voice is too low starting at :14. Another thing I find, and it might just have to do with the selection of instruments but the piano part is just so harsh compared to the instrument you gave to the voice. If you have anything softer, I think that's what needs to be changed. Even in the film, it was a very soft piece, so when I heard what you chose for that piano I was like "woah"...it's accurate no doubt, but it's a tad harsh, IMO.
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Like Malte, I agree...the main voice is too low starting at :14.
Too low? That's the exact opposite from what I was saying. I think the volume should perhaps be a little lower.
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the main voice is too low starting at :14
mainvoice could be introduced at a slightly lower volume at 0:14
This is the problem with midis. Every sound card plays them back differently, so what sounds balanced on my computer may not sound balanced on everyone else's. On my system, I agree with RogerRabbit, that the melody should be turned slightly louder. However on the default Windows synthesizer that most people use, the melody is almost too loud even how it is set-up now. I've tested this project on both sets of MIDI instruments. Luckily, it's easy to switch back and forth :lol
I'll see what I can do though; thanks for the information :)
Another thing I find, and it might just have to do with the selection of instruments but the piano part is just so harsh compared to the instrument you gave to the voice.
I chose the piano because the original song used a piano. What I can do is make the piano have less "Attack" to it, so it isn't as loud and punchy. I don't think I'll be able to change the instrument itself (I can try a different kind of piano, I suppose. MIDI has a few pianos to choose from. The one I used is just the common acoustic grand piano.), but I can do my best to tweak it. This is very interesting. :unsure:
I have a theory on why it's doing this. At what point in the song does the piano seem too harsh? From the very start? From 0:14? From Ducky's first line (I can't refer to the time of this event right now, as I'm at school at the moment. Around 0:53 maybe?). I think I know why it may sound too harsh. On the windows synth, it sounds fine, but on a good sound card, the damper pedal controls I used may leave too much resonance in the piano in this section. It may seem a bit overbearing when the notes ring for long periods of time. I did this to help eliminate the punchy effect and to add flow to the piano line. The problem? The piano sounds too loud on some sound cards :blink:
I dislike MIDI sometimes, lol :P:
Since I apparently can't get it to sound right on every sound card (I tried putting the volumes somewhere in the middle, but both of you are saying opposite comments regarding balancing), Maybe I shall release two versions of the midi, when it's complete; one for the instruments found on RR's sound card (which are likely similar to mine) and one for the Windows default synthesizer, which everyone has. The problem with the Windows default synth, which you're probably using, Malte (if you're not, please correct me!), is that the "background" instruments, such as the piano, are Very quiet on it, and the "lead" instruments are overly loud, so it is difficult to balance. The sounds on my sound card, and likely similar to those found on RR's, are more equal, allowing for easier balancing.
The problem is, what sounds balanced on his will have an overly loud melody on Malte's (the default Windows synth), and what sounds balanced on Malte's will probably barely be audible on a more balanced sound card.
I'll release two midis when it's complete; one balanced for the Windows synth, and one balanced on my sound card. Keep whichever one suits you better, and I'll also post up a universally-balanced MP3 version of it when it's complete. At least in the mp3, the piano will actually sound like a piano, lol :lol
Again you are doing an awesome job Tim!
Thanks, Malte :)
I'll keep you all informed of any significant changes. I want this song to turn out very well, and the more opinions I get, the cleaner I can make it B)
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Don't you love soundcards now Tim? :p :p
Realistically, I guess with this you can't please everyone...I'll see if I can get my original soundcard to come back on, and try it out there so I'd be on the same page as Malte.
Actually, I made a goof in my statement...I think the things you chose for the chimes in the beginning were the harsh sounds, not the piano part. :slap I forgot there were bits of percussion in the beginning there in addition to the piano....
(I really need a running away and hiding smiley right about now)
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I'll see if I can get my original soundcard to come back on, and try it out there so I'd be on the same page as Malte.
You don't need to physically remove your sound card to hear the basic Windows synth. It's a software synth that everyone has pre-installed. It can be played through Any sound card (it may have a little bit of latency, but nothing that should affect you too much). To access it, go to your control panel.
Sounds and Audio Devices -> Audio tab -> MIDI music playback
Change this to Microsoft GS Wavetable synth. This is the default Windows Synth. You probably don't have as many choices as I do, but for example, I see:
SB X-FI Synth A
SB X-FI Synth B (these two are my soundfont-compatible synths) B)
SB X-Fi MIDI In
SB Audigy 2 ZS Synth A
SB Audigy 2 ZS Synth B (two other soundfont-compatible synths on my other sound card) B)
SB Audigy 2 SW synth
Microsoft GS Wavetable synth (the software one that somes with Windows XP)
Anyone else interested should try this as well. Maybe you have hidden midi synths you didn't know about, that may sound better than the one you're using :p
And for anyone who's curious, the "GS" in GS Wavetable synth, stands for "General Standard", which basically means the same thing as GM (General MIDI). It's just a standard set of 127 MIDI instruments.
think the things you chose for the chimes in the beginning were the harsh sounds, not the piano part. I forgot there were bits of percussion in the beginning there in addition to the piano....
Ahh alrighty. I wasn't sure how they would come across for volume on various soundcards. I tried to knock them down, but they may still be too loud. I'll look into this when I get home B)
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It was good, but I will tell you that with me having LBT 9 as my fav, I can tell you what you messed up on with this one. :)
First off, right at :14 where the rest join in, it's just too loud. For me though, piano was just fine. It's the rest of the insturments that need work.
BTW, what insturment do you plan to give the Longneck Mother?
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(This is partly why I waited for awhile to get working on this song; I knew it would be a challenge to get sounding right :P: )
Thank you very much for all of your assistance, everyone! I've got an update posted up. B)
but I will tell you that with me having LBT 9 as my fav...
Which is partly why I'm being so picky about the details of this song. It seems to be rather popular :wow
First off, right at :14 where the rest join in, it's just too loud. For me though, piano was just fine.
Here's another case of a user of the Microsoft GS synth that comes with Windows :p
This is a known issue with this midi synth at this point, as previously stated, but it's good to know how many people in this community are using each type of MIDI synth. It's possible this symptom will occur on a number of sound card / soundfont combinations. I have only tested two combinations.
BTW, what insturment do you plan to give the Longneck Mother?
I am going with a clarinet at the moment. It seems to work decent. I was debating a solo string instrument, like a viola, but the slow attack on the sound made it impractical.
BTW, do you agree with the vibraphone (the melodic percussion instrument, like a xylophone) used for Ducky's voice? I've tried a few instruments here, and it has given me the best results. I would use a flute, but there is already an actual flute in ths song, that Just stops playing as Ducky's vocal part starts. I didn't want to put them on the same instrument.
My debate right now is, when the group is all singing together. Do I use all of the instruments in unison (as it is right now), or do I create a 6th vocal channel that represents the entire group? It seems that these instruments don't sound all that great when they're all playing the same notes together. I may just create another instrument to represent all of them combined. I'm still toying with this, so we'll see :p
I've posted up another attempt. No further work has been done on the structure of the song. This is just an instrument-balancing update. What do you think, folks?
http://www.angelfire.com/az3/action9000/index.html (http://www.angelfire.com/az3/action9000/index.html)
Again, ignore everything past about 1:03. I tested this almost exclusively on the Microsoft GS synth, so the melody will probably be too soft and the piano will probably be too loud on your sound card, RR. Let me know if I'm wrong, though.
I've also posted up an MP3 version of the song played on my favorite MIDI synth. As you can see, some parts are quieter than they probably should be, and the piano gets a bit too heavy at times. Compare this to how the new midi sounds on your computer. BTW, this recording was made from this latest version of the midi.
Another BTW: The final MP3 render of this song won't use the sounds used in this MP3. This is just my midi synth. I'll be using sounds from the same virtual instruments I used to produce the "If we hold on together" mp3.
[EDIT] I just realized the guitar is a tad too loud on my sound card :p I just put my old sound card back in to fix my soundfont glitch, and I've forgotten how nice this soundfont is already :p I'll fix the guitar volume in the next release.[/EDIT]
I think I found part of the problem; I took my music teacher's lessons too seriously when making this MIDI :P: I was taught about dynamics and expression in music throughout high school, and I think I may have overused this in some cases of this midi. As a result, some notes on the piano came out punched and whatnot. See how this sounds. I leveled off some of the expression on the piano. It's still there, but not as extreme.
On my sound card, this new version of the vocal parts sounds too quiet, but let me know how it sounds on your end.
I'm just glad that volumes are the worst of the problems. At least the music itself (the notes) sound right :p Balancing is a very common issue with MIDI files. I"ve heard a Lot of MIDIs that were very well-written, however they didn't sound balanced on some sound card or another. It's just the nature of midi in general. I'm just trying to minimize this issue within the community that will be most exposed to these midis.
So, I have another question for you folks: Do my other MIDIs that I've released here seem to have balancing issues as well, that were simply not mentioned? I optimized the balancing for my favorite soundfont on the others. If they seemed balanced, perhaps I should just balance this MIDI to my usual soundfont and hope something good happens :lol .
Wow, I just kept going on and on, in this post :lol
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The volume problem has been solved in the revised version. :)
Now it is the perfect volume at 0:14 to tell the listener that things are getting started without sounding too "harsh" (this is not the right term, but I can't think of any better right now). There is however the very same volume Problem at about 1:11. Just a tad too loud and strong to really harmonize with the previous melody; it may of course be a soundcard issue. We better wait for more people to give their feedback :)
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The volume problem has been solved in the revised version.
Excellent :wow I'll wait for some more opinions, and I shall continue working on this when I get home. I'm in school right now, and I have a class to attend in just a few minutes (Calculus... :bang ) :lol
is however the very same volume Problem at about 1:11.
This same problem exists no matter what sound card I play it on. Nothing past 1:03 has been optimized yet, and this is a known issue that will be fixed very soon.
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No volume problems here, and I've entirely disabled my Windows sound thing, so I wasn't using that...just whatever the Creative Live gave me. For some reason it seems that Littlefoot's singing part pans the stereo imaging..like it jumps all over the place. I'm pretty sure that's not intentional, so that's probably just me, but it's almost one of those cassette recordings where the images aren't as precise as cd recordings, if you get my drift.
Again, ignore everything past about 1:03. I tested this almost exclusively on the Microsoft GS synth, so the melody will probably be too soft and the piano will probably be too loud on your sound card, RR. Let me know if I'm wrong, though.
I heard nothing odd here...maybe that's because I wasn't looking for anything wrong, so I didn't hear anything wrong....
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For some reason it seems that Littlefoot's singing part pans the stereo imaging..like it jumps all over the place.
The instrument for Littlefoot's voice is centered on the stereo field, and none of the panning controllers are active on that instrument. The only controller that should make it change is the volume controller. I'll look into the panning, but I see no reason why it should be doing that.
[EDIT] The panning issue has been fixed. Apparently, I had a controller set at 1% right, and this was causing RR's sound card to do strange things :lol [/EDIT]
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BTW, do you agree with the vibraphone (the melodic percussion instrument, like a xylophone) used for Ducky's voice? I've tried a few instruments here, and it has given me the best results. I would use a flute, but there is already an actual flute in ths song, that Just stops playing as Ducky's vocal part starts. I didn't want to put them on the same instrument.
When it comes to making a song like this, I'd say that it's best to have all the charcters as different insturments. Since flute is already taken, I'd indeed say that vibraphone is the best choice. :)
Anyways, no mistakes for what you have fixed so far.
I'll tell you now, listening to it's original version in the movie, there is only ONE point where they all join together. Just pick the right insturments for the gang, and I'm sure you'll do fine.
Oh, and with what you picked for the Mother Longneck, I now must ask what you picked for Petrie and Cera. :)
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there is only ONE point where they all join together
That is true, and this time is quite short. I am just as concerned about the quality in this section as the rest of the song, as I want this project to turn out very well.
Good news! It's the weekend, so I'll have long hours to work on the music :D
Thee bad news: I have exams all next week, and I have to get some studying into this time as well :p I'll post updates as I have a chance to, but I am somewhat concerned about my calculus final on monday. My grades going into it aren't that hot :unsure:
Oh, and with what you picked for the Mother Longneck, I now must ask what you picked for Petrie and Cera.
You'll probably wonder why I chose such an odd combination of instruments. The answer? They sound decent on most midi synths, even though these wouldn't necessarily be my first choices if I were assigning instruments in real life :p
Littlefoot: English horn (a woodwind instrument similar to a saxophone, but mellower. Sort of between a saxophone and a clarinet, sound-wise.). the midi version sounds quite melodic and not overpowering on most synths.
Cera: Trumpet. This is subject to change. It sounds very nice on my soundfont, but I don't suspect this will sound very good on some others, as many sound cards have a very bright or harsh trumpet sound.
Petrie: Alto saxophone. It seems to suit his voice fairly closely.
Any of these are subject to change, but this is how it stands for now.
BTW, what sound card Do you have, Malte? Do you know?
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LOL Oh my...I just realized a pretty serious Goof in the MIDI... :slap
I reworked a number of sections of it, as I recently noticed I had the wrong notes on a number of bass and piano parts.
I don't know how I could have been so tone-deaf; I had thought it was accurate, but after some double-checking of my older work, there were definitely flaws in it. I'll post an update shortly. I haven't been working on this much, as my mind has been needing a little rest from midi making :lol It's mind-numbing work sometimes.
The first change you'll notice is that the first chord in Littlefoot's solo is fixed. It will sound different from the last midi, and this is much more accurate to the original. I also changed the octave of the bass, because it was too low-pitched. I just raised it up higher. I found some errors on some notes in the bass during Littlefoot's solo, and fixed them. I also plugged in the string/flute run at the end of this midi, and stuck in the bass to that section as well. There are other sounds missing still, from this section.
I find this new version of the midi takes a little getting used to, listening to it. It is hard for me to accept the change in the bass, but I checked it against the original song, and this is more accurate than before.
[EDIT] Ok, revision 003 is posted up. Not much more length added to the song, and many instruments are still missing from the last section of this midi, but it's a work in progress :P:
http://www.angelfire.com/az3/action9000/index.html (http://www.angelfire.com/az3/action9000/index.html)
[/EDIT]
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Now it's the big test of them all together. (Which I believe was the hardest part for you. ;))
It was just beautiful! :^.^:
The insturments worked so well together when it really mattered. Keep it up! I don't think you'll have too much trouble from here on out. :)
I really can't wait for the final version when it's finally complete.
Once again, great job! B)
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I must be tone-deaf as well, as I didn't notice anything wrong with the previous version.
For some reason, the part for Littlefoot and the mother longneck is really soft compared to other instruments.
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ACK! :slap :slap Don't shoot me! I realized what I did after I hit "submit modified post" :slap :slap I editted your post, RR, instead of replying to it. A severe case of not paying attention :bang :bang I can't remember everything you posted, but I put back everything I could remember.
Anywho, regarding what you said:
for some reason, the part for Littlefoot and the mother longneck is really soft compared to other instruments.
This is expected, I'm afraid. I've balanced the volumes of these vocals on the Windows midi synth. As a result, anyone using a hardware synth, such as you or I RR, will hear some of the instruments out-of-balance. These same vocals are too quiet on my sound card as well, but they sound just fine on the Windows synth.
Now it's the big test of them all together. (Which I believe was the hardest part for you. )
I don't think you'll have too much trouble from here on out.
I'm fairly impressed with the balancing and quality of this project so far.
For some reason, this song is giving me much more trouble than anything I've worked on in a long time. I don't know why I'm having such a hard time with this one. It's confusing my senses *just* enough that it's tricky to pick everything out accurately.
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Shoot you? Nooo...I don't do that stuff. I just need to revert back to my list of punishments to see how many lashings you deserve plus how many 128kbps BLADE encoded mp3 files I send you in replace of flacs the next time you ask.... :lol: :lol:
Nah, no biggie....I've done that before too. As long as you understood the problem I was having, which you seemed to.
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just need to revert back to my list of punishments to see how many lashings you deserve plus how many 128kbps BLADE encoded mp3 files I send you in replace of flacs the next time you ask....
Noooooooooooooooo!! :blink:
:lol You know me all too well, my friend :lol
Glad it was no biggie, RR. B)
I must be tone-deaf as well, as I didn't notice anything wrong with the previous version.
Lol, maybe I am being too picky with these midis :p I just figure, if I'm going to do them, I may as well do them as accurately as possible.
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Sorry for the delay on this one, folks! It's almost done, and I'll post a final version shortly. I'm working on it right now. This last slow section with the Mother Longneck singing is rather difficult, especially the piano and guitar parts. The final section will only take me a few minutes, but this last singing section is proving to be a little challenging.
Oh, and I'll make sure the final version is a tad louder overall than the previous release. I know the midi is sort of quiet on some sound cards (it's really quiet on mine). I'll just make each instrument proportionally louder, and problem solved B)
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Finally, No One Has To Be Alone is complete! B)
The quality of this one will really depend on your computer's sound card, especially with volume balancing. I balanced this one for the default Windows midi synth. If I play it back on my upgraded midi synth, some of the voice instruments are a bit too quiet. If I increase the volume any more, however, those on the windows synth will hear the voice instruments as being Way too loud.
This song was a fairly substancial challenge to balance, volume-wise. I am fairly happy with how it turned out, but there is still some room for improvement. This is also one of my larger midis, regarding file size. This is because of the large number of volume controllers present in the midi. They "sure do take up a lot of space" :lol
Anywho, here's what I came up with:
http://www.angelfire.com/az3/action9000/index.html (http://www.angelfire.com/az3/action9000/index.html)
Also, check out my site for a mini teaser/preview of my next midi. You'll probably recognize it pretty fast B) :lol
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Beautiful! :yes
I'm looking forward to the next one as well (again a more cheerful tune which I suppose everyone will recognize immediately) :)
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Wow! :wow
I wonder if they have something like what you're doing in the job department, becuase you'd be perfect for such a job. :)
I absolutly loved it. ^_^
It was just beautiful. :) So perfect, so percise, I can hardly believe you do so well. B)
I don't find any problems with it really, you did incredably well. :D
Just like Malte, I can't wait for the next one.
Keep up the good work. I hope for your next one to come soon.
See ya later. :^.^:
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First of all:
Wow!
Beautiful!
I'm looking forward to the next one as well (again a more cheerful tune which I suppose everyone will recognize immediately)
:D
I wonder if they have something like what you're doing in the job department, becuase you'd be perfect for such a job.
Jobs in the MIDI field do exist, and I would love to get my hands on one of them. As a matter of fact, that is *partly* why I'm building these midis; to set up a sort of "portfolio" of my midi abilities in case I ever get lucky enough to apply for such an opportunity.
Jobs in this field include a wide variety, such as:
Professional MIDI file creation (if you search for professional midis of popular songs, you will find a number of them out there. MIDIs that users must pay for to access, as they are sequenced (produced) by professionals who have probably written the midi from the original artist's data directly (though I don't know for sure on that, I wouldn't be surprised if professional midi file sequencers have access to the original music to save having to do it all be ear, which is difficult and time-consuming).
Music composition for TV, video games, and films. Much of the music found in the media, especially TV and games, is written using MIDI instructions with bigger, more expensive synthesizers (as I explained to Malte a bit over MSN, MIDI is nothing but a language that a sound synthesizer understands. MIDI itself contains no sound data, just instructions (for example: Note C5 on, Note A4 on, note C5 off, change to instrument 005, note E5 on, change to instrument 023, change volume to 46, change volume to 48, change velocity to 72, change panning to 105, note A4 off, note E5 off, etc, etc, etc ok I'm done :P: ).
These instructions can be sent to any sound generator (Synthesizer, sound library, whatever you want to call em :P: ) for use in a number of applications.
MIDI is a Very powerful tool in the modern world of digital audio, far beyond that which we see here, in our cutesy music and cheap sound cards.
Throw a midi instruction file to a $3500 sound library (http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=EW-155PROB1), and it sounds just like a live orchestra! Incredible stuff, really. Check out the demos on the link above. They're nothing but midis thrown at a Hollywood-quality sound library. I'd love to get more into it...but I don't have $3500 to spend on the software (not to mention, the powerhouse of a computer required to operate it! Mine could probably run it decent, but I don't know for sure...):cry2
I'll just stick with my $200 instruments that I"m using in the If We Hold On Together MP3 (http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/details.phtml?sku=EW-161) :lol
Check out the Action Adventure demo (http://www.soundsonline.com/cd_mp3_demos/229786.mp3). Picture That as a MIDI file. THAT is what MIDI can be. Crazy stuff :wow
And if you think that's crazy, Check This Out! (http://www.soundsonline.com/cd_mp3_demos/217208.mp3) And you thought voices would never get into MIDI music! :p None of this is performed live. It's all electronic, using nothing but MIDI and sound libraries. Trust me, you've never heard MIDI choirs until you hear this! :wow
And people say MIDI sucks :o :rolleyes: :lol
(hmm, now I feel like going and writing a MIDI article on The Fridge :lol )
Another option: ringtones for cell phones! :lol
musical ringtones are nothing more than MIDI files. This would be a fairly straight-forward job B)
don't find any problems with it really, you did incredably well.
"High praise, coming from you."
-Pterano
:lol Weren't you the one who said I messed up on the early release of this one? LOL
(but yeah - I did mess up on the early releases :slap )
Keep up the good work. I hope for your next one to come soon.
Thanks a lot! :wow More coming as soon as I can! My computer is giving me some trouble right now though. Looks like the hard drive that I load Windows off of, is basically dead :slap I may be slightly delayed, due to technical and other reasons, but I shall indeed do my best. My computer is being...less than reliable, but at least it's being cooperative enough to let me write this response! :p