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Wow! LBT 10 was like that?

DarkHououmon

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It seems the only reason he was indifferent was that he went through a state of depression. An experience like that can turn even the kindest person into a cold blooded being.

I can agree with that. I don't think Bron was hit as hard as other people can be, but it still probably dramatically changed his behavior, and make him appear like a cold-hearted person when in fact he truly was not.


action9000

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but it still probably dramatically changed his behavior, and make him appear like a cold-hearted person when in fact he truly was not.
I actually Very much like your ideas, Darkhououmon! :yes You convince me so far that perhaps there is some legitimate aspects to Bron's behaviour.

I completely agree with you; the journey to the Great Valley is one of following the heart.  If the heart has been damaged, tainted, or broken, I suspect that the direction may not be there, either.


DarkHououmon

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If the heart has been damaged, tainted, or broken, I suspect that the direction may not be there, either.

The counter for this would be that, if Littlefoot was just as depressed, why hadn't he just forgot about the Great Valley altogether? Why was he still able to find his way to the valley?

This comes down to two things. The first one is the scene where he sees his mother's reflection and hears her voice. It is her spirit, talking to him. She reminded him, and thanks to her, Littlefoot now remembered the directions. The other could be because of his age. Littlefoot was a kid, young and pure, and more open-minded. As stated in the novel for Jurassic Park, kids can sometimes "see" better than adults, they notice things adults do not.

Now we have Bron, who is an adult, and is more willing to believe the "logical" explaination for things. He probably lost his child-like innocense, and probably doesn't even believe in spirits. If he didn't believe in spirits, even if LF's mom was able to contact him, Bron's closed-mindedness, if you could call it that, would have prevented her from being able to inform him of the valley's location.


Malte279

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You are raising some very good points DarkHououmon and I want to emphasize that, if I call some of them into question, I'm not forcibly trying to disprove you. I suppose as far as some of the points are concerned I suppose neither of us is right or wrong but that the "truth" may well be somewhere in between our views.
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This abrupt change can cause deadly transformations in the weather. Whether or not they happen overnight, I do not know. But there must have been a reason Bron left alone to find a new home if he could sense the change coming. Maybe it was a good thing he left alone. Think about it; had they all gone, if something terrible happened, they would have all died. But instead, Bron was probably making the ultimate sacrifice by being the only one to go, so if something bad did happen, only he would suffer, and his son would have a chance.
Whatever this strange disaster was that turned the world upside down, not allowing Bron the time to return nor his wifes and her parents to wait for Bron's return, if Bron or anyone indeed sensed that it would come, Bron's actions may be even less excusable. Leaving a pregnant wife when you feel disaster is about to strike may be interpreted as the ultimate sacrifice, but it is the pregnant wife who is being sacrificed! I don't see how Bron would be the only one to suffer when leaving the place where he senses a disaster is going to strike, leaving others behind at that place. From that perspective it would look almost like a getaway of Bron (almost, as he wouldn't have returned in case of a getaway unless consciousness struck him). So the image of Bron might be kinder if we assume that he didn't sense the comming disaster when he left his wife, but if he didn't, the question remains why on earth he had to leave in the first place when they seemed to be in a place that seemed to be just perfect to hatch an egg to then move on (if necessary).

As for the question of Bron being not told about the Great Valley, I named the Farwalkers and Mo's waterkin only to show how far spread the knowledge about the Great Valley is in general. I didn't mean to suggest that Bron had accidentaly stumbled on either group to ask them, but rather that there must be many dinosaurs out there to know about the location of the Great Valley. Perhaps more dinosaurs know than not. Littlefoot told Ducky in the original movie that his mother had told him that all herds were heading for the Great Valley. If that was so, or even of merely a majority of the herds did, Bron would not even have had to ask anyone. All he should have done was to follow the herds or ther tracks. No need to meddle with "non-longnecks" (you are having a good point about the racism prevailing at that time which probably limited communication among the species. I have the book with the chapter you mentioned and I find it an awful shame that this important chapter wasn't part of the movie). Also there were other herds of longnecks out there whom Bron might have accompanied (we see one other herd of longnecks throughout the original movie). And longnecks are probably easier to find than other species (Cera points out their clear footprints in LBT 10). But again, with all herds headed for the Great Valley there was no need at all for Bron to talk to anyone if he didn't want to. All he had to do was follow their tracks which isn't asked too much if the prize might be his only son. One might argue that Bron maybe didn't want to find the Great Valley as he wanted to find his son; but at this point the cat bites its own tail, for finding the Great Valley meant at least a very good chance to find his son. For this reason I find it very hard to forgive Bron for never turning up there. Even if he did just the moment when nobody was there in LBT 5, as has been suggested, Bron would have really taken his time to get there. More time than it takes for the Valley to burn down and to regrow.
The matter of time is significant for yet another question. How much time passed from the moment Bron left his wife until her death by the claws and teeth of sharptooth? Looking at how much Littlefoot grew in that time I suppose it must have been at the very least two or three years. This assumption takes the fact into account that dinosaur kids seem to grow up faster than humans do; as demonstrated by Chomper. Was it really beyond Bron's limits to find his wife again in all that time?
We also know that Bron learned from somebody about the fate of his wife. And afterwards he apparently didn't talk to anyone to ask about the whereabouts of his son or the whereabouts of the Great Valley. I see what you mean when you mention the depressions Bron must have been suffering from upon learning about his wife's death (the much the more as I suppose there might have been some rightful feeling of guilt included), but if he was really serious about finding his son, the thought of and search for whom should have been the ultimate motivation for him to get on with life. If indeed it was for his depressions that he was unable to think clearly enough to head for the Great Valley, I really don't see how anyone could consider him as capable of clear thinking as would be required for the leader of a herd.

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Bron did show a hint of guilt near the ending, if I remember correctly. He obviously did feel bad about hanging out with Littlefoot and not with him, but I don't think he was mistreating Shorty. He never actually told Shorty he couldn't hang out with him and his son, nor did he actually say he didn't consider himself a fatherly figure. I believe he did; and this is apparent in the first scene we see him in.

He disciplined and corrected Shorty when he saw him trip Littlefoot. Bron would not have done this if he didn't consider himself a fatherly figure. If I remember correctly, Bron never said he didn't adopt Shorty. He didn't mention it, but that doesn't automatically mean he didn't. So I do believe Bron really was caring for Shorty; we just don't see much of it in the movie.
Of course we may speculate about what kind actions or words of Bron were kept from the audience. Looking at what was not kept from us makes me seriously doubt Bron would have considered himself a fatherly figure. The most definite statement is (analogous) that all the other longneck kids found parents, but not Shorty. That statement is very clear I think.
I'm not saying he is mistreating Shorty, but he is neglecting him. Sometimes neglection is worse than the attention one gets from a stern educator. Had Bron really taken care of Shorty, how did Shorty turn into the bully as whom we got to know him? We do see Bron giving a lecture to Shorty for tripping Littlefoot (something anyone might do if wittnessing such a scene), but with "his" longnecks being just one group out of many I suppose a herd leader must make sure they behave themselves. There wasn't something really parental about that scene.
You are quite right when you mention that LBT doesn't tell the whole story, but with all the dubious actions of Bron it is hard for me to think of the parts which must have been left out to give a good explanation for all this. Such left out parts would be way too important to be just left out. I think the parts we did see tell us quite a bit already, while parts we weren't shown are left to speculation. Different as speculations are for every individual they are of limited use in a discussion.


DarkHououmon

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I'm not saying he is mistreating Shorty, but he is neglecting him.

Neglect is the same is mistreatment. It's a form of mistreatment. And Bron was not doing this to Shorty. There's really no evidence I can see that proves so. If he truly was being neglected, then why would Shorty consider him a kind of father? If he was being neglected, he would not have wanted to be Bron's adoptive son, the way I see it.

And how did he turn into the bully even though Bron possibly took care of him? Well a bully is just generally someone who likes to boss others around. This can come from even a well-took-care-of person. A bully is, indeed, sometimes mistreated or neglected, but that isn't always the requirement to produce a "bully".

Perhaps Shorty was already like that before Bron had met him, and it wasn't because he was neglected; but because, as I think Bron stated, he and the others had been alone, orphaned. Shorty was probably the hardest hit, and he started to become aggressive to protect himself. And this behavior stayed with him because, to Shorty, this behavior saved his life before Bron showed up.

We must also remember that these are still animals, not people, and thus they have a different society from what we have. Now if Bron really had neglected Shorty, that was probably from a human's perspective. But from a dinosaur's perspective, it probably wasn't. Remember, they are not humans, they are still animals, regardless if they are given human emotions or not.

Here's a statement from Shorty himself, "Now that he has you, he'll ignore me like everyone else." Now what does this statement tell you? It obviously indicates that Bron was not neglecting Shorty. Shorty fears that he would be neglected after Bron found Littlefoot, but, according to that very statement Shorty says, there could not have been neglect, otherwise Shorty would probably have said instead, "I'll never get him to pay attention to me, especially now that he has you."


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All he should have done was to follow the herds or ther tracks.

That would be easy, but we must consider the landscape. It was hard, and rocky in most areas, if I remember correctly. Footprints would have been hard to find, and also, how would Bron know if they were going in the right direction or not? If he had forgotten the way to the Great Valley, then how could he trust the footprints were going in the right way?

Yes there are footprints around, but that doesn't truly mean Bron would have recognized them as a way to the Great Valley, especially if he found them while he was in that darker state of mind, not able to think as clearly as he could later on.

Yes it would seem the knowledge of the Great Valley was far spread, but is that really true? Ali's herd probably just came onto the valley by chance. They saw what looked like their home, and they came in. This doesn't mean they knew of the valley's existance beforehand.

There are probably many groups of Farwalkers, and of those many, perhaps only a small percent knew where the valley was. Maybe the larger end didn't know it existed. After all, the world is a big big place. What are the odds that most dinosaurs would know of a place such as the Great Valley, which is only a small speck of a massive area?


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Leaving a pregnant wife when you feel disaster is about to strike may be interpreted as the ultimate sacrifice, but it is the pregnant wife who is being sacrificed! I don't see how Bron would be the only one to suffer when leaving the place where he senses a disaster is going to strike, leaving others behind at that place. From that perspective it would look almost like a getaway of Bron (almost, as he wouldn't have returned in case of a getaway unless consciousness struck him). So the image of Bron might be kinder if we assume that he didn't sense the comming disaster when he left his wife, but if he didn't, the question remains why on earth he had to leave in the first place when they seemed to be in a place that seemed to be just perfect to hatch an egg to then move on (if necessary).

No, Bron's intention was not to sacrifice his wife, but to sacrifice himself. When I think of it, if Bron had taken the pregnant longneck with him, and they were in the middle of a harsh environment, even worse than what Littlefoot would eventually be born into, then they would all suffer. Because of Bron, his son would be born in a place where he would be killed almost right away.

Also we must consider what might have happened the day Bron left. How do we know that they didn't talk to each other about what to do? Maybe Bron had told his wife that, if he didn't return on time, before their son hatched, to leave for the Great Valley (provided he knew it existed) and never stop to wait for him, to think about the safety of the child first.

So Bron left to find a new home, but perhaps told his wife to leave if he took too long. We must consider that the world is a huge place, and what would take only several hours for humans to accomplish would take Bron days, maybe even weeks, to accomplish. Perhaps the land he was on was only a large oasis, and they were surrounded by desert-like regions. And perhaps it was shrinking. Sensing the crisis, Bron would leave, but had a plan B: to have his wife leave before it was too late rather than await his return.

Bron didn't leave just because he wanted to. Judging from the look on his face and the way he and his wife interacted, it is clear that Bron did *not* truly want to leave. Given the choice, he would have stayed, but he decided to go, for the good of the family. If Bron knew what was going to happen, surely he would not have left. But one cannot predict the future. How was Bron to know that, by the time he returned, his wife would be dead and his son gone? How was he to know that, because of his leaving, his own son was orphaned and left all alone? He isn't psychic.


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I really don't see how anyone could consider him as capable of clear thinking as would be required for the leader of a herd.

Thinking has nothing to do with it rather than the energy he was starting to project. Now this is merely just reference to the Dog Whisperer, but it could apply here too. A true alpha dog always has calm assertive energy when he or she wants the others to follow his or her orders. They do *not* reward their followers, they just expect them to behave.

If dinosaurs are the same way, then the energy Bron was feeling was sensed by the other dinosaurs, and they considered him to be leader-material, even if Bron probably felt he wasn't worthy. Was it really Bron's choice to be leader? Or was he forced into position because everyone wanted him to be?


Malte279

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I don't suppose one could argue the fact that Shorty looks up to Bron as a fatherfigure. But one might well doubt whether Bron considers Shorty a son. The quote you gave certainly indicates that Bron must have cared to a certain degree about Shorty before he arrival of Littlefoot.
Nevertheless the quote of Bron according to which the other longencks all found somebody, but not Shorty makes it clear that (while he may feel some compassion) he didn't see him as a son. I also feel that it would have been more sensitive if Bron had talked to Shorty after he found Littlefoot, rather than sending Littlefoot to talk to Shorty (just to wittness Shorty's fierce and rude reaction to Littlefoot).
The only real sign of affection Bron ever shows to Shorty is when he lifts him upon his head near the end of the movie. There is a "Bron friendly" interpretation of all this. Perhaps Bron never ever allowed himself to show any real affection feeling that by doing so he might either give up his son or else "betray his memory".
The revovery of Littlefoot may have ultimately "legitimated" the adoption of Shorty in the eyes of Bron.
Maybe this is also why the relatively short statement "like brothers" from Littlefoot has such an extreme reconciliating effect on Shorty. When Littlefoot adopted Shorty as a brother, it was perhaps Littlefoot doing what Shorty had always hoped Bron to do. Realizing the changed relationship between Littlefoot and Shorty may have caused Bron to drop his reservations against the latter.

People who are taken care off can well turn into bullies, no doubt. Pampered little princes and princesses who consider themselves the center of the universe can be as bullyish as bullyish can be. But with a proper raising and education chances for a person to turn into a bully are abysmal. LBT 10 doesn't give any real indication that Bron cared more about Shorty than about any other herdmember (save maybe those he left behind as the producers of LBT 10 needed an excuse for Bron not to accompany Littlefoot to the Great Vally).
Of course life had already formed Shorty by the time he found Bron, but nevertheless presuming that this event was around the time of the original movie there was plenty of time for Bron to bring down some of the walls Shorty had built around himself. Bron doesn't seem to have taken any real efforts to rise and educate Shorty.

As for tracks on rocky ground, if we adopted the rules of LBT 10 to the oringinal movie it would be possible. Cera, Ducky, Petrie, and Spike seemed to be able not to loose the track of Littlefoot and his grandparents on rocky ground (and not even in a swamp).
Knowledge of the Great Valley seems to have been very far spread by the time of the original movie; at least it is according to the claim of Littlefoot's mother that it was where all herds where heading. The claim is in conflict with the narrator's statement according to which "some" of the herds searched for the Great Valley. Either way knowledge of it seemed to be quite far spread.

Bron tells his story in a way as to suggest dinosaurs just started to follow him as their leader. The flashback itself shows little of some energy the other dinosaurs apparently felt; but here your justified claim that the movie doesn't show everything may be applied. Surely there must have been something that made others look up to Bron.


DarkHououmon

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The only real sign of affection Bron ever shows to Shorty is when he lifts him upon his head near the end of the movie.

I don't consider that statement or the quote as proof positive of Bron's neglect. I haven't watched the movie recently, but from the way it sounded, Bron was talking in past tense, not present tense, so I keep thinking that Bron was only referring to what happened not long before his herd formed, not very recent events. There's no evidence to prove, or disprove it in my opinion, but Bron may have adopted Shorty before Littlefoot came.

Now someone might ask that, if he was adopted, why doesn't he stay close to Bron. Simple answer: the herd itself. The size of the herd makes it very safe for youngsters to wander around. As Bron said, sharpteeth won't attack a herd that size. So Shorty is safe with and without Bron as long as he stays close to the herd.

Also we must remember just what species these creatures are. They are sauropods. Watching a documentary I learned that the scientific theory about sauropods is that they lay their eggs and then leave them to fend for themselves. Young sauropods are capable of taking care of themselves if need be. This is proven in Littlefoot's case when he survives without his mother during the journey to the Great Valley.

But then, why did Littlefoot's mother stay behind to take care of him? Another simple answer: she wanted to protect "the next generation" so the species will survive. It's an instinct that all animals have, I think, and it may have caused a change in behavior and had the sauropods look after their young rather than abandon them like their kind usually would.

There is another special exception in the "normal sauropod behavior" and that's with Ali's herd. Since they migrated so much, if they laid an egg and it hatched, the herd would be long gone by then. But it is indicated that the herd lived inside the valley itself all these years, and migrated to different parts. They could have easily come back and let Ali join the herd.

Also Ali said that she spent much of her life socializing with just other longnecks. If she was left with other eggs and had siblings or playmates, then yes this would be true. Ali's timid behavior could derive from how young sauropods might have lived; hiding from fear, being very cautious around creatures they don't know.

So what I am pointing out is that, if Bron didn't adopt Shorty, it wasn't a bad thing. It wasn't like they were out in the Mysterious Beyond, all scattered into tiny groups, giving the sharpteeth the opportunity to attack. No, they were living in a small valley in a huge herd. Shorty could live just fine both on his own and with the direct care of Bron. After all he is a tough kid.

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As for tracks on rocky ground, if we adopted the rules of LBT 10 to the oringinal movie it would be possible. Cera, Ducky, Petrie, and Spike seemed to be able not to loose the track of Littlefoot and his grandparents on rocky ground (and not even in a swamp).

This doesn't mean that Bron could have followed them. We must not forget weather, which can wash away the tracks, depending on the severity of the weather, or at least hide them. And if Bron were in his state of depression, he might have forgotten to follow the footprints, or even forgotten the significance they might have held.

To reply to your earlier statement on that, if Bron really was determined to find his son, he should've snapped himself back to reality and forced himself to move on, to keep trying. Now this seems like a logical idea. However, we must still remember Bron's tattered state of mind. Not able to think straight, making mistakes, etc.

Also, here's something to consider: Bron just might have stumbled upon his wife's body. There's no reason to suggest that he didn't. Seeing her like that would have worsened his state. This alone may have caused Bron to lose hope of ever finding his son, and thus this may have been the final straw that left his spirit broken, and no longer able to naturally know where the Great Valley was.

He would then blindly walk on, looking for Littlefoot, but always walking in one direction. His spirit is broken, and when someone's spirit is broken, it can take a long time to recover. Bron would try to hold on to some hope he'd find his son, but perhaps he would come upon a body that he thinks is Littlefoot, and is convinced his son is dead.

When he comes upon the small herd of baby longnecks, some glimmer of hope is renewed. Maybe one of them is his son. Alas this isn't so, and Bron may lose that hope again. I'm sure Bron's hope is somewhat renewed sometime after the formation of the herd. Perhaps Shorty is the one that renews Bron's hope.

But then why didn't he leave to the valley? Well maybe the loss of his ability to find the valley was permanent, and no matter how hard he tried, he just couldn't remember. Maybe one of the others could have lead him. Perhaps, but that doesn't directly mean that they would leave to the Great Valley. They were quite content on staying in the tiny valley where sharpteeth don't dare attack.

The longnecks seem to be quite cowardly too. Look at how they behaved when the sharpteeth attacked. They were paranoid to leave the safety of the valley, not even to help the little ones. Of the herd, only Bron was brave enough to leave and fight off the meat-eaters. So Bron isn't afraid to leave the walls of the tiny valley, but even if Bron had planned on going to the Great Valley, his biggest task would be to get the herd to come out.

He may be leader, but trying to get many cowardly longnecks to move outside the valley, despite how little of a chance there was to being attacked by sharpteeth, may be an obstacle that Bron couldn't overcome when he tried in the past. He also couldn't just leave them; they had appointed him leader, and as leader it was his responsibility to look after them, whether he wanted the position or not.

His message to Littlefoot about "dragging his herd to the Great Valley" is another indicator that getting the herd to leave will be quite a challenge. But Bron seems to be willing to try again. Whether or not it will be successful, no one can be too sure. But perhaps a later movie or an episode will verify if it does work.


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Perhaps Bron never ever allowed himself to show any real affection feeling that by doing so he might either give up his son or else "betray his memory".

Hmm...I don't agree with this. I don't see why Bron would think showing affection towards someone else would be betrayal. I mean I show affection to other dogs, but my dog doesn't feel betrayed. People show affection towards a variety of things, not just a single few.

So Bron should not feel like he is betraying anyone just by showing affection towards Shorty or the other young longnecks. And he is certainly not giving up his son. I mean, if I had a kid, and lost the kid, maybe the kid ran away, and I gave affection to another kid, I am not giving up the first child at all. I am rather trying to ease my pain instead.

Now if Bron is faced with the same situation, then him showing affection to Shorty would help ease his pain, not make him give up or betray Littlefoot. But this showing affection would probably only surface after Bron has found the courage to move on, and break free of his depression, for the most part.


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Knowledge of the Great Valley seems to have been very far spread by the time of the original movie; at least it is according to the claim of Littlefoot's mother that it was where all herds where heading.


Yes far spread, but that no way says that all or most of the dinosaurs knew the location.  And taking what Action9000 had stated earlier, if Bron had went the opposite way, he would have indeed ended up in the wrong place. Now one can say he can ask for directions, but what if the directions were always the same? "Follow the bright circle to where it touches the ground." Now LBT10, as you say, suggests that footprints are easy to find. But does this mean Bron could have found them? No, not a chance.

Let's not forget that the Mysterious Beyond, the world, is huge. There is little chance of Bron being able to find the right set of tracks, leading in the right area. If he didn't meet up with a herd, and only knew the "follow the bright circle", he might have chosen to follow foosteps, if he found any, that lead in the wrong direction because he may have believed he should follow the morning sun and not the evening sun.

If Bron had truly believed this, that he was going the right way, he would probably not believe any dinosaur with the right directions, and perhaps tell them that they are the ones who are wrong. Bron would realize his mistake too late, but when I'm not sure. Perhaps after he reaches the small valley.


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he flashback itself shows little of some energy the other dinosaurs apparently felt

One must understand that you cannot see energy, let alone see it happen. The flashback doesn't show everything, in fact it shows only a tiny tiny fraction of what actually happened.

The closest thing to see energy in progress is to watch a pack of dogs, especially a newcomer dog being introduced. One with an untrained eye won't see anything, but an expert dog handler would be most likely to notice how the energy from the calm dogs affects the behavior of the newcomer dog. The same process could have worked in the cause of the sauropods.


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Surely there must have been something that made others look up to Bron.

The energy is one of the ways this might have occurred. Another is if Bron told them what he been through. If Bron had told the others about how he lost his wife and may have lost his son, but continued to search the Mysterious Beyond, still having some hope of finding his son, then taking in a little ground of longnecks, despite the state of mind he was in, facing the perils of the Mysterious Beyond all alone, all this may have helped the herd consider him a leader, and a role model to look up to.


Malte279

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Now someone might ask that, if he was adopted, why doesn't he stay close to Bron. Simple answer: the herd itself. The size of the herd makes it very safe for youngsters to wander around. As Bron said, sharpteeth won't attack a herd that size. So Shorty is safe with and without Bron as long as he stays close to the herd.
But then why did all the other young longnecks find parents to whom they apparently stuck? The theory suggests that Shorty didn't want a parent so long he was save with the herd. There may be characters who would rather choose "independence" of having no one "in charge" over the safety and love of a family life. There are some points to suggest such tendencies for Shorty. The extreme importance of Bron for Shorty (it is the disappointment of lacking attention from him that makes Shorty leave the herd) however clearly shows that Bron is not with the herd for mere safety reasons but actually did look for something more.
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Also we must remember just what species these creatures are. They are sauropods. Watching a documentary I learned that the scientific theory about sauropods is that they lay their eggs and then leave them to fend for themselves. Young sauropods are capable of taking care of themselves if need be. This is proven in Littlefoot's case when he survives without his mother during the journey to the Great Valley.
I'm afraid this is a case where science is of limited use to understand the LBT dinosaurs. There can be no doubt that the LBT characters are anthropomorphized rather then kept as close as possible to the prehistoric truth. Family bonds in the land before time are MUCH closer as they were for real dinosaurs. A matrimonial relationship such as that of Littlefoot's grandparents didn't exist for most species. The same goes for parental care in case of most species.
With the extremely different picture we get from Shorty's own reactions to Bron I really don't think we can apply the prehistoric accuracy as a valid argument here without turning all of the land before time upside down. There is no reference whatsoever to actually suggest that any LBT dinosaur mother acted faithful to science in this case.
Apart from Ali whom you suspect might have been recovered after being left behind we also see longnecks hatching in LBT 9 and the mother is around to protect them (as Cera clearly expected her to be the moment before the she appears).
With Littlefoot, Ali, and the tiny longnecks in LBT 11, we have at least three cases where longneck parents care about their hatchlings in the LBT world. The only case of an egg being forsaken by parents that comes to my mind can be found in the rather dubious shape of the legend of the lone dinosaur (and in the flashback from LBT 6 we have yet another case of a longneck kid being cared for by her mother).
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Also, here's something to consider: Bron just might have stumbled upon his wife's body. There's no reason to suggest that he didn't. Seeing her like that would have worsened his state. This alone may have caused Bron to lose hope of ever finding his son, and thus this may have been the final straw that left his spirit broken, and no longer able to naturally know where the Great Valley was.
I don't think so. Bron mentioned that someone (who?) told him about Littlefoot's mother and the sharptooth. One might conjure up some sensitivity on Bron's part as a reason not to mention his finding of his wife's body in front of his son, but to me this would really seem very much like lunging for every possible straw that might do to break Bron's back as an excuse for his later actions and inactivities. When he was talking to Littlefoot he seemed quite calm. There would have been nothing wrong about mentioning that he found Littlefoot's mother. He wouldn't even have had to use any term like "body" or "corpse".
If indeed his mind was so all through messed up as required to justify all the things he can be blamed for I really find it hard to see him as so inspiring as to make everyone following him as their leader. If Bron had had any really good reason to suspect Littlefoot dead (I wish he had such a reason as it would make much of his inactivity appear more pardonable) I'm sure he would have mentioned this to Littlefoot. Without him mentioning it (and why would he conceal such an important point which might make his son understand why he hadn't been around all this time) I don't think Bron ever had any real point to think that Littlefoot was dead rather than missed.
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But then why didn't he leave to the valley? Well maybe the loss of his ability to find the valley was permanent, and no matter how hard he tried, he just couldn't remember. Maybe one of the others could have lead him. Perhaps, but that doesn't directly mean that they would leave to the Great Valley. They were quite content on staying in the tiny valley where sharpteeth don't dare attack.
Again there is too much maybe in this theory. Whatever else I may think about Bron, he doesn't come accross as somebody who would forget things such as a way description. Even if he did it would have been easy enough to recover the information from others.
What is that tiny valley where sharpteeth don't dare attack? I don't remember any such place being mentioned in LBT 10. The only suggestion we ever get that Bron's herd is not a migrating herd (which is the impression we get from the flashback; which is of course set in an earlier time so the herd's way of life may have changed meanwhilse) is his statement near the end of LBT 10 when he tells Littlefoot that he can't way to introduce him to the others back home. We don't know anything sure about this home. If we presume Bron to be a responsible leader it must be save enough for a part of his herd to stay there by themselves. We don't know if they really stayed there as they felt saver there than with the rest of the herd. You pointed out earlier that Bron stated that sharpteeth don't attack a herd the size of his herd.
My point is that with a herd large enough to frighten sharpteeth away from attacking the herd Bron could have easily gone anywhere, including the Great Valley. If in spite of the security the large herd provided some members refused to come along Bron would have had to choose between the chance of finding his son (and the certainty to find a really pretty place to stay for a while or to even live ever after) and the cowardy longnecks. Who is leading that herd anyway? Or is the herd leading Bron? The started following him and everyone who doesn't want to follow him may leave. Being made the leader of the herd in fact gave Bron some authority to tell the others where to go. The Great Valley is certainly not the worst place for a herd of longnecks to go to. I don't see how Bron's being accepted as a leader by others inabled him to lead them to the Great Valley.
I can't see the herd and the cowardice of some longnecks as a good excuse for Bron's never trying to find the Great Valley.
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Let's not forget that the Mysterious Beyond, the world, is huge. There is little chance of Bron being able to find the right set of tracks, leading in the right area. If he didn't meet up with a herd, and only knew the "follow the bright circle", he might have chosen to follow foosteps, if he found any, that lead in the wrong direction because he may have believed he should follow the morning sun and not the evening sun.

If Bron had truly believed this, that he was going the right way, he would probably not believe any dinosaur with the right directions, and perhaps tell them that they are the ones who are wrong. Bron would realize his mistake too late, but when I'm not sure. Perhaps after he reaches the small valley.
With the lack of problems the rough direction of the Great Valley imposed for the dinosaurs in the original movie I sure hope Bron's not the only one not to get the description right. In spite of rising in the east and setting in the west the direction the sun (or rather the earth's rotation) sets for dinosaurs to follow remains the same. I stick to the view supported by several statements from the original movie that who wanted to find the Great Valley was at least able to get the right direction. The sequels (4, 7, 8, 9) suggest that migrating herds and other beings who don't live in the Great Valley are well aware of its whereabouts. My point is that anyone who wants to get to the Great Valley can get to it provided he or she manages to stay alive and feels not above asking others for the way.
Trying to justify Bron's inability to find the Great Vally always seems to end in the conclusion that he must be very dense. This at least is one accusation against Bron I don't really support.
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The closest thing to see energy in progress is to watch a pack of dogs, especially a newcomer dog being introduced. One with an untrained eye won't see anything, but an expert dog handler would be most likely to notice how the energy from the calm dogs affects the behavior of the newcomer dog. The same process could have worked in the cause of the sauropods.
There is a difference, I think, in the qualities that make an energetic dog and the qualities that make a responsible, caring, and intelligent herdleader.
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The energy is one of the ways this might have occurred. Another is if Bron told them what he been through. If Bron had told the others about how he lost his wife and may have lost his son, but continued to search the Mysterious Beyond, still having some hope of finding his son, then taking in a little ground of longnecks, despite the state of mind he was in, facing the perils of the Mysterious Beyond all alone, all this may have helped the herd consider him a leader, and a role model to look up to.
In which case he would have been made the leader of the herd through the story of his lost son. Becoming the leader of the herd he pretty much abandoned looking for his son (this is the conclusion we must draw if indeed Bron and his herd settled at one fixed place). This doesn't reflect well on Bron's character in my opinion.
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Hmm...I don't agree with this. I don't see why Bron would think showing affection towards someone else would be betrayal. I mean I show affection to other dogs, but my dog doesn't feel betrayed. People show affection towards a variety of things, not just a single few.
It was just a theory. Some humans decide to never marry again after becoming a widower or widow as they feel it would betray the memory of their past away loved ones. I thought that perhaps a similar emotion (which diminished after Bron found Littlefoot) may have contributed to keep Bron from acting like a father to Shorty. I may be wrong, but it was one excuse for Bron I could come up with.
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There's no evidence to prove, or disprove it in my opinion, but Bron may have adopted Shorty before Littlefoot came.
Yes and no. I don't think we have had any good point without a "maybe" in it that supported the idea of Bron having adopted Shorty as a son. On the other hand there have been points proving that at least he wasn't totally ignoring Shorty. Neither of us will be able to prove the own view about the degree to which Bron is minding or ignoring Shorty. We both have some points to support the own view and decline the other. I still think that Bron's statement that Shorty didn't find any parents and the way in which Shorty developed strongly suggests that Bron didn't consider Shorty a son and didn't care as much about him as would have been necessary. Yet there must have been some care from Shorty's point of view as demonstrated by the quote of Shorty which you gave.
Perhaps we can settle for the golden middle.
Bron didn't ignore or willingly neglect Shorty, but he didn't give him nearly as much care as a parent would have.
In my opinion the final scene of the two suggests that this is going to change in the future and that Shorty might get a more important place in Bron's life as a result of the recovery of Littlefoot.


Highsoar

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It's not totally on topic, but I'm very curious now. What book is it that has that chapter someone mentioned? What's in the chapter? *really wants to know*


Almaron

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(Yes, I know the topic's old. But I didn't want to make a new topic for this.)

1: Although we can't see any visible danger, there are thousands of reasons as to why they didn't stay there. We know that ultimately the land changed, and that forced Littlefoot's herd to move, but the announcer does say in the first film that "The leaves began to die". Maybe this was beginning to happen.
 
We don't know exactly what route Bron took. He may have even told them to leave if he wasn't back after a certain time. He might have found a valley, and turned back to find them. I think that the land appears destroyed rapidly due to an odd scene change. Whether or not he found a safe land (I think he went south, near the longneck canyon), he didn't find them because they had moved on. Basically, Bron made it back to their old home as the great earthquake hit. So that still leaves him a good while away from wherever they are (I think their nest was at the eastern limit of the divide. Whether or not Littlefoot was actually born there is unknown.) He would have had to follow the footprints of the adults to the divide, where they would abruptly finish. As for finding Littlefoot's mother, although people think he met Rooter, he would have given info on Littlefoot. At this point, Bron must have met a dino on the other side who informed him of her death. Bron would have found no evidence of a child, as Littlefoot wasn't old enough to leave lasting footprints in hard land. I assume that Bron lost all hope, and decided to return to the lands of the south.

Now I watched the scene again with the baby longnecks. Letting kids run free could be a longneck thing (Pat lets the GOF run rampant several times). Bron doesn't say that he looked after them; he says that in time they began to depend on him. This is two different things. If you ask me, he had no intention of looking after him. I think he was in a state of self-loathing, and was only thinking of himself. However, Shorty and the others followed him as he was the only grown-up they had seen in ages. Bron would have noticed them following him, realised his new responsibility, and started looking after them. Each of the longnecks who followed him seemed to be loners or stragglers. Presumably, they were all lost, and Bron seemed to be the only one who seemed to have a clue as to what he was doing. So basically, Bron is their leader because they made him it. They just randomly followed him. This could also be why he says they depend on him. They would panic without him.

This could also be why his herd is not at the crater (In reality, it's a plot point that someone forgot about). If they are all stragglers (Or possibly the older members of herds that got abandoned), they may not travel long distances well. Bron may have offered to travel to the area for them. This would also be why he has to get back, to prove that it wasn't dangerous. If they stayed behind, while their leader never returned from the new strange thing, they could panic. Of course, it may not have made sense to travel in a large herd. They didn't know what lay ahead, and moving an entire longneck herd for a dream would most likely doom them all if they ended up in a barren area. However, moving to the Great Valley would be doable as they know it's there.

As for why he didn't head for the valley in the first place, it sounds like it was a rumour that others followed. Chances are, a migrating herd walked past Littlefoot's mother's nest, and they heard about the "Great Valley", and decided to head there. Bron may not have heard of it, and returned to where he knew there was food. If Grandpa Longneck knew of the valley's existence, (He might have known of it under a different name) he would have told Bron, and he would have headed there. Unless Bron assumed that his parents in law had perished in the quake. I think he had given up all hope of ever seeing them again. Despite a bad start at looking after kids, he may be a motivated leader, by aiming not to let this herd die like his family (A similar thing happens in the Edge Chronicles, a character who was forced to abandon her child later looks after many orphans and leads them to a safe land to attone for her wrongdoing).

It seems that the longnecks there are all members of tiny herds, or possibly representatives. Did all the Longnecks have the dream? Ali is missing...

(I wonder...it could have been him...naah. The longnecks who eat all the trees in the copse may have been outcasts who later joined his herd. Or even his herd. After all, they go a different way and don't reach the valley.)



Malte279

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Hats off to you for a really impressive entrance. I really like elaborate threads and you made quite a couple of those already within the short time you are around Almaron :yes
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   (Yes, I know the topic's old. But I didn't want to make a new topic for this.)
^ This is all the better as this way we have all points with reference to the topic in one thread rather than scattered over the whole board. May I know how long you have been around as a guest reading such threads from a land before this time? ;)
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1: Although we can't see any visible danger, there are thousands of reasons as to why they didn't stay there. We know that ultimately the land changed, and that forced Littlefoot's herd to move, but the announcer does say in the first film that "The leaves began to die". Maybe this was beginning to happen.
Quite possibly so, but the main question for me is not so much about leaving than it is about leaving behind. With any sense of danger, would it not be a lot more sensible to remain in a group? If Bron was to go scouting ahead for the impending move it doesn't seem to make much sense to wander so far of as to not find his way back to the others for whatever time it took for Littlefoot to develop from an egg into a talking and reasonable longneck. We often tend to compare their states of development with that of humans. If we drop that assumption and instead believe them to develop much faster in their first days then to stop physical development for good for a long time ( :DD ), it would be quite possible that the events of the original LBT movie took place even before Littlefoot's first hatchday. But all this does not explain why Bron would be wondering of farther than a day or two ahead leaving his wife behind in a state of perceived danger.
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If you ask me, he had no intention of looking after him.
That was pretty much my point too, that it was not for his concern that the kids ended up under his protection.
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This could also be why his herd is not at the crater (In reality, it's a plot point that someone forgot about). If they are all stragglers (Or possibly the older members of herds that got abandoned), they may not travel long distances well. Bron may have offered to travel to the area for them. This would also be why he has to get back, to prove that it wasn't dangerous.
LBT is particularly shaky about many details here. While all longnecks are supposed to have that dream we know longnecks a plenty who are not around (Ali's herd, Doc, the longneck mother of LBT 9, every single longneck resident of the Great Valley except for Littlefoot and his grandparents etc.). But one thing that is rather obvious is that Bron once again left part of his herd behind. If that part was consisting of the weak and old who might not make the travel in sufficient time this would make Kron... pardon, Bron kind of a social Darwinist and that on the basis of a dream it really doesn't sound like he is living up to the responsibility of a herd leader. Now I would not have a problem with that if we could assume that in this position he is not so overly important and that the herd is running in a rather democratic fashion with everyone being able to make up the own mind on what to do and whom to follow, but with the repeated statements of Bron about how very dependent the herd is on him such an interpretation is questionable at best.
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As for why he didn't head for the valley in the first place, it sounds like it was a rumour that others followed. Chances are, a migrating herd walked past Littlefoot's mother's nest, and they heard about the "Great Valley", and decided to head there. Bron may not have heard of it, and returned to where he knew there was food.
In a sense the Great Valley has been very demystified in the sequels. No longer something to see with your heart rather than with your eyes (there have been suggestions that an earlier concept for the movie actually had the Great Valley as a heaven after the death of all the main characters, an idea which would have been abandoned for the sake of the kids) the Great Valley has been turned not only into a very concrete place, but it has been further disenchanted by LBT 6 through the fact that Littlefoot's grandpa had been there before ("Erm yes, I forgot to mention at the time when your Mum was telling you about things to see with your heart... come to think of it I forgot to tell your Mum too... come to think of it I never mentioned it to Bron either... I am kind of forgetful" :lol) and through Doc's other places "just as nice" statement. I'm afraid there just isn't a way to make the original movie match with LBT 10 in that respect. Either we think of the Great Valley as the legendary purpose of the original movie and as something that could be seen even without ones eyes (something in short that Bron ought to have been aware of) or we can think of it of so random a place that Bron would never think of heading there looking for his kid or even for the benefit of himself and his herd.


Almaron

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Quite possibly so, but the main question for me is not so much about leaving than it is about leaving behind. With any sense of danger, would it not be a lot more sensible to remain in a group? If Bron was to go scouting ahead for the impending move it doesn't seem to make much sense to wander so far of as to not find his way back to the others for whatever time it took for Littlefoot to develop from an egg into a talking and reasonable longneck.

For them to make such an odd decision, I think they must have had several options as to where to go, and little time. Bron took one route, and if time ran out, they would take the other, assuming that he had found nothing safe and/or was dead. He assumed they took the other route, then stopped looking after learning of her death.

I wonder if the time limit they had was the egg laying. They may have wanted to leave for a long time. If the eggs were laid in a dangerous place, (as they were in the first film) it might have been hard to save the babies (again, in the first film). If they had a baby to migrate with, it would have been even harder. Look how close Littlefoot came to getting eaten in 10 by that gator. The problem with the 10th film is that it fails to convey the sense of urgency that the first film does.

Maybe the beauty of the valley in the flashback is Bron's memory. It really would have made more sense if the land was dangerous. Either way, because of the first movie, we must assume that they had to leave that land for some reason.

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LBT is particularly shaky about many details here. While all longnecks are supposed to have that dream we know longnecks a plenty who are not around (Ali's herd, Doc, the longneck mother of LBT 9, every single longneck resident of the Great Valley except for Littlefoot and his grandparents etc.). But one thing that is rather obvious is that Bron once again left part of his herd behind. If that part was consisting of the weak and old who might not make the travel in sufficient time this would make Kron... pardon, Bron kind of a social Darwinist and that on the basis of a dream it really doesn't sound like he is living up to the responsibility of a herd leader. Now I would not have a problem with that if we could assume that in this position he is not so overly important and that the herd is running in a rather democratic fashion with everyone being able to make up the own mind on what to do and whom to follow, but with the repeated statements of Bron about how very dependent the herd is on him such an interpretation is questionable at best.

Although, we have seen how quickly members of the GV panic and make the wrong choice. He may not be needed, but they may have gotten used to having him there for them. Wouldn't it also make sense not to take the entire herd on what could be a wild goose chase?

In reality, the answer to all the problems? Blame the scriptwriter for not thinking it through! However, that's where we come in, to muse and find out the missing information.


Malte279

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In reality, the answer to all the problems? Blame the scriptwriter for not thinking it through! However, that's where we come in, to muse and find out the missing information.
Well put :yes


Littlefoot3897

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I still think it would of been perfect if Littlefoot left with his father at the end.  That way when they made Land Before Time 11 it  could have more ideas. It could probably show Littlefoot returning a little older  :yes


Noname

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That would have been a cool thing to see, IMHO, but it was probably too daring for the writers of the film...


Littlefoot3897

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Quote from: Noname,Sep 9 2009 on  06:49 PM
That would have been a cool thing to see, IMHO, but it was probably too daring for the writers of the film...
I mean after land before time 10 they seem to run out of ideas
thats why I only like 1-10.
but imagine if Land Before Time ended there. it would of been perfect because they can start a new version with them as teens and have more ideas. who agrees.



Malte279

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Sorry, but I can't agree with that. We had nine movies, including the one and only original, to build up the awesome friendship between Littlefoot, Cera, Ducky, Petrie, and Spike. But all of a sudden in the tenth movie a stranger from the mysterious beyond appears with a very flimsy story to claim fatherhood of Littlefoot doing next to nothing in that story compensate for his lack of background and that should put an end to the being together of the awesome group that was formed in nine movies including the real one? Just because Bron (for more flimsy reasons) seems to be unable to get the Great Valley. Everyone make up his own mind but I really would have seen that one as an additional minus point of LBT 10.


Cancerian Tiger

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:exactly

The Gang has been through so much together and they seem to share sibling-like relationships, aside from Ducky and Spike since they're in the same family.  For Littlefoot to break off from the others that easily would have been highly disappointing, not to mention it would leave me wondering just how much his pals really meant to him <_<.  Think of his grandparents, too.  It would be so wrong for him to just leave them even though they were raising him.


Campion1

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continued from welcome thread

Ok, I'm not going to be as focused as I promised. I apologize. I would just like to understand why you were so disappointed with lbt10 besides the character of bron

Quote from: "Malte" on  
I don't fail to notice the sensitivity of some scenes in LBT 10. I think some of the ideas had great potential, but that they were too careless and unconcerned to allow for that potential to evolve into something really good.
What about lbt10's plot did you feel unsatisfied with? Sorry if you answered this before in the thread, but I stopped reading half way through. Reading too much lit up text on a black background can hurt after a while.


Malte279

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Well, trying to sum up the points I made in more detail in previous posts there was:
- Lack of plausibility / coherence with earlier movies in the overall plot (e.g. the whole sleepstory to all longnecks (save Ali's herd, Doc, any longneck not related to Littlefoot in the Great Valley...) to make them go on a journey through the Mysterious Beyond (which used to be depicted as quite a dangerous step to take in earlier movies).
- No coherency / plausibility whatsoever with both the story to explain Bron's absence all the time as well as his actions throughout the movie.
- Even though we had a rather lame sharptooth in LBT 8 already and even with the dreadfully poor sharpteeth of some later sequels those from LBT 10 were really painfully harmless (if a sharptooth trips over longnecks smaller than their feet who intentionally crawl under the feet to trip it something is seriously wrong).
- Apart from these points I also think that the animation had some weaknesses. LBT 9 had shown that it can work to combine near photorealistic animation (of the water) with the animation of LBT. In case of LBT some of the animation really didn't seem to fit in (e.g. that scene when Littlefoot runs up the tree), also the sad fancy of Mr. Grosvenor to turn everything red in case of danger came to a sad climax in this movie when not only the sky and the landscape but even the characters all turned red in dangerous moments (in some at least).