Volcano!

action9000 · **on:** March 11, 2009, 01:58:12 PM

Hey all!

There has been talk between Malte, Iris, Jason and I (Malte was our apocalyptic friend who originally brought up the idea

) about how awesomely disastrous it would be to have an active volcano in the Great Valley, similar to what we saw in LBT 2.

The issue we're running into is how we'd actually get something like that programmed! We're looking for a way to make a stream of lava spill out of the volcano and flow down the mountain, pooling in logical places, building up, flowing further, lighting trees on fire and just creating all sorts of havoc in general!

The main problem is just, I have no clue how we'd ever make flowing lava! I've never seen such an effect in a 3d world before, aside from in live-action movies. I have no idea how it could possibly be done on a computer.

If anyone has any thoughts or knows of any 3d environments (games, CGI movies, etc.) where they have flowing lava (not just stationary lava, but actual flowing lava), please let me know! I'm totally stuck on how we'd ever do something like that!

Kor · **Reply #1 on:** March 11, 2009, 02:01:53 PM

You could have it done like in the movies, with no lava appearing.

Another idea is if there is a code or something for flowing water and if one can control how fast water flows then use the code and code the water to be red and slower flowing. Though it would have to eventually cool and become rock, unless one wants to have rivers of lava as are seen in some underground places and if one walks along the edge of the volcano as the gang did in one of the episodes I think.

action9000 · **Reply #2 on:** March 11, 2009, 02:05:30 PM

Quote

Another idea is if there is a code or something for flowing water and if one can control how fast water flows then use the code and code the water to be red and slower flowing.

Unfortunately, no, I've never seen a game where a liquid is creating its own path through the terrain in realtime. The only time I've ever seen a liquid in a 3d world is when it's already in its 'riverbed'. We need a way to get this liquid from a source (the volcano) into either

1) A predetermined path
2) A path that it makes, based on the terrain.

Basically, I need some way to change the shape of the liquid itself, or something like that..I don't know exactly what I need but basically, I just need a way to go from a state of having "none of this liquid" to "generating liquid from some source and having it appear and expand to somewhere logical on the terrain".

NaNaNa · **Reply #3 on:** March 11, 2009, 05:29:19 PM

Do you think thats possible on a casually developed MMORPG game?

Kor · **Reply #4 on:** March 11, 2009, 05:39:38 PM

If there is wind it may be possible to have a type of heavy wind that is hot and low to the ground maybe, or something like that, no idea how to code lava myself.

F-14 Ace · **Reply #5 on:** March 11, 2009, 05:54:27 PM

You could just have some lava pools and a lava pit in the top. Perhaps it should only be for looks and only pose a threat if people are stupid enough to jump in. I can just imagine the glitches you would encounter with this thing (stationary NPSs standing in lava flows so you can't talk to them, etc).

Kor · **Reply #6 on:** March 11, 2009, 06:02:23 PM

Maybe not like some problems I heard they had in might and magic 9 with some npc's walking around underwater so if you wanted a quest or to get the reward you'd have to dive down to where they were.

Malte279 · **Reply #7 on:** March 11, 2009, 06:14:14 PM

Thing is that a volcano eruption (and possibly a number of other disasters) might make for a highly exciting part of the game. With the various limitations an RPG with an LBT setting poses (not much about inventory and very little combat) we got to explore new land to make it a game that players will enjoy. A lava pool may be pretty to look at, but it would not be an element that could make up for the great excitement a more acute struggle for survival fleeing through a burning forest with a broad stream of lava on your heels would create.

aabicus (LettuceBacon&Tomato) · **Reply #8 on:** March 11, 2009, 06:25:42 PM

Could you create "invisible canals" for the lava to follow?

Flathead770 · **Reply #9 on:** March 12, 2009, 12:06:21 AM

Quote

If anyone has any thoughts or knows of any 3d environments (games, CGI movies, etc.) where they have flowing lava (not just stationary lava, but actual flowing lava), please let me know! I'm totally stuck on how we'd ever do something like that!

I actually thought of one case last night after our chat. I recalled that one episode of reboot, there was a liquid (paint to be exact) that acts somewhat like lava. Heres a clip of the episode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSPtgXqCmEc (from 2:18 - 2:50)

I dunno if this helps though.

action9000 · **Reply #10 on:** March 14, 2009, 01:20:07 AM

Yea, that's awesome, Flathead! Thanks for sharing!

That's basically the sort of effect we'll need, except Reboot could sorta cheat by having full control of what was being seen by the camera. We need to make a scene that looks good no matter the angle so our job will be significantly harder, unfortunately.

Littlefoot Fan · **Reply #11 on:** March 19, 2009, 07:37:15 PM

The thing is, you really can't. It's just not possible. Even if you did manage to pull something like that off, to have such a crazy amount of physics going on would surely crash most people's games.

Here's one way I think you could achieve the effect of a volcano

Create nearly 100 billion instances of microscopic spheres and keep sending millions of them flying out of the center of the volcano. Each sphere would have the gravity calculations that the players have, so they'll fall and naturally hit the slopes and keep sliding down. Once they reach the bottom of the slopes, have them very slowly travel in the direction they're facing.

Ok, I admit that if that was actually done, it would probably look like an explosion of red confetti blasting out of a volcano, but the fact of the matter is that this kind of thing just simply cannot be done, not without making it look totally unrealistic anyway.

The game Bioshock is a perfect example. That game was highly praised for its amazing water effects. But besides the overall mind-blowing appearance of the water, there was no real free-flowing water that actually acted on its own. The only water you saw was water that was already in a puddle on the floor, or falling from a hole in the ceiling, only giving the impression that it is filling up the puddle it is pouring into, when in actuality, it isn't.

Now of course there were cases in that game where a room actually did fill up with water. It wasn't random though, it was always through some kind of event that would've happened the same way for everyone. And to make a room fill up with water is complete cake compared to this, since the water is only going in one direction, up, and it can be just a flat image of water slowly rising to the ceiling.

I also read that there were a lot of people hired for this game to work on JUST the water! Can you imagine the total amount of time and dedication that was put into this game's water? And still there was no such thing as any kind of water that acted on its own in this game.

Games don't have exploding volcanoes because there is no feasible way to do it. The physics of liquid actually being put into a game is something we probably won't see for a very long time.

:

NaNaNa · **Reply #12 on:** March 19, 2009, 07:40:48 PM

Well if thats the case, maybe you could turn a scripted volcano eruption into some sort of a minigame

Malte279 · **Reply #13 on:** March 19, 2009, 08:51:29 PM

I know nothing about programming, but with all that has been programmed already, I cannot imagine it to be impossible. Something being impossible to program would be more astonishing these days than something being possible to program.

Littlefoot Fan · **Reply #14 on:** March 19, 2009, 10:30:06 PM

I imagine it could be some-what pulled off with enough programming experience and creativity. But I don't think you could ever really achieve the effect of an actual eruption from a volcano, with fully 3-d lava spewing out.

action9000 · **Reply #15 on:** March 20, 2009, 01:44:57 AM

Simple:
If we can't actually *use* a liquid, then we'll have to come up with some way to *fake* a liquid!

It can be done..I don't know how well we'll be able to do it, but I'm not about to give up on this just yet

I found a decent example..actually I found two..of 3d volcanos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s9Jyth3xb4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2V2kAGp91I (At 1:43)

kanganix · **Reply #16 on:** March 20, 2009, 02:40:48 AM

sounds fun

Malte279 · **Reply #17 on:** March 20, 2009, 05:14:23 AM

I'm utterly ignorant about programming, and I do not question that it would be very tricky, but I'm sure it can be done somehow. The fact that nothing like this has been done in any of the games we know does not mean it were impossible.

There is a famous anecdote which (though historically almost certainly untrue) fits in here. After his return from discovering what he thought was the western sea route to India Christobal Colon (better known as Columbus) was mocked during a feast at the Spanish court. Many of those who had objected against his expedition in the first place now said that anyone could have done what Colon had done and that there was nothing special about it. At this Colon asked the mockers to place a boiled egg on its tip so it would not tilt. Some tried but they all agreed it was impossible. Then Colon took the egg, crushed the tip and that way he could easily place it on its tip without the egg rolling away. The others protested that anyone could have done it that way upon which Colon responded: "Everyone of you could have done it. But I did!"

This game will certainly provide many challenges and there are quite a couple we haven't figured out yet. But to some degree it may also be motivating if we are aware that in some respects we are actually exploring new land so to speak.

action9000 · **Reply #18 on:** March 20, 2009, 02:24:30 PM

The challenges here come from our general lack of knowledge of programming.

It's one thing to push the boundaries of game design with innovative ideas. Designing new concepts for a game doesn't require the insane amount of background knowledge that computer science and programming requires.

In short, while coming up with innovative game ideas may be plausible for us, inventing groundbreaking programming strategies just may not be.

DarkHououmon · **Reply #19 on:** June 18, 2009, 05:15:09 PM

Has anyone here heard of Hydrophobia? It's an upcoming game that will utilize HydroEngine. Here's the summary of it:

Quote

The HydroEngine is a video game engine created by Blade Interactive for their upcoming video game Hydrophobia for the PC, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360; it will also be the first to use the gaming engine. Developed over 3 years, it has a unique capability which allows modelling of flowing water and other liquids for the first time. It is entirely dynamic, which means the effect is not repeated and thus allowing different effects each time. The engine can also interface with solid body physics engines such as Havok,which allows objects and debris to be carried with the flow. Another new development platform, called the InfiniteWorldsGCS interfaces directly with the HydroEngine. According to the developers it is "an underlying architecture, which can interface with bespoke editors tailored to individual game projects".

So perhaps creating an active volcano that does not rely on set times may be possible after all.