The Gang of Five
The Land Before Time => General Land Before Time => Topic started by: WeirdRaptor on April 03, 2005, 06:57:53 PM
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I was watching the sequels 2-5 last night when the question popped into my mind. "Would these have been better if they had treated the existing plots for the sequels the same way they had treated the original?"
I thought this would an interesting idea to present to you guys. What do you think?
Personally, my answer is defintely "yes".
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I don't understand the question unfortunately.
Are you saying, had the sequels been written and planned out similar to a theatrical film, would it make for a better sequel?
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Yes that's what I'm asking. Would the sequels have been better if they had been more like the original?
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Perhaps so. If the films were as high budget projects as to show them in the cinemas, it is likely that they would be a little more careful about some things that may be worth criticism about the sequels as they are.
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Perhaps so. If the films were as high budget projects as to show them in the cinemas, it is likely that they would be a little more careful about some things that may be worth criticism about the sequels as they are.
Indeed...they would've likely developed a different storyline if they had planned to release it theatrically since if it bombs in the theaters, it's over whereas you have more leeway with a direct-to-video series.
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Actually, I wasn't suggesting putting them in theaters, I was suggesting that if they had been more like the orignal, delivery-wise, would they have been better, period?
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Im not entirely sure if I understand what you mean by "be like the original" coz I've always thought each of them original in their own right since each sequel tells a different story. I dont really see how they can make it like the original without being blasted that it's the same plot being reused and/or overused. To be honest, I was very surprised to see a sequel for LBT in the first place coz the ending was very closed. They found what they were looking for and they were happy. In light of that, I dont think Don Bluth had the intention of making a sequel but Universal went ahead and did it anyway.
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Like Jason said there weren't any intentions to create a sequel at first (I think LBT 2 was released in 1994).
As for the question, I'm afraid it really needs to be pinpointed a bit more, as it is difficult to decide what is included in the term "like the original" and what is not. Are we talking about the animation? The plot? The whatever?
As for the animation, I doubt that a purple sharptooth (LBT 2) would have been admitted to a "more like the original" movie, not to mention the shrill colored ophtalmosaurus in LBT 9. There were often softer colors, less sharp borders and more spectacular perspectives in the original movie. It might be, that keeping this up in the sequels would have been an improvement. However, I can't say I was very disturbed about the sequels' animation unless it comes to some elements in later movies, namely "confusion of colors" (green lava in LBT 7, deep green skies in LBT 8, turning red of everything in case of danger (LBT 5, 6, 10), exaggerated use of color to indicate temperature LBT 8), and exaggerated 3D and photorealistic effect that don't seem to fit to the normaly drawn characters in LBT 10.
As for the plots, there are a number of things that I don't think would have been tolerated in movies more like the original. We don't need to go as far as looking at the movies that are clearly in conflict with the original to find examples.
To begin with, the first movie seemed to show (never said so explicitely though) the Great Valley was the last green spot in a vast wasteland. In the sequels the Valley has partly been "disenchanted", most likely because it turned out impossible to limit all stories within the walls of the Great Valley.
Also, I don't think a friendship with a sharptooth would have been tolerated, at least not the easy way it was established in LBT 2, in a movie more strictly based on the original.
Finally the friendship between Littlefoot and the others was something extremely special in the original movie in which the racism among the various kinds could be felt very strongly. In the sequels it is hardly something special at all (with LBT 4 being a remarkable exception as it seems to limit the lack of racism on the Great Valley).
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Again, that's not what I was asking.
Would the sequels have been better if they had been more like the original?
Like, okay, are they better as light-hearted musicals, or if would they have been better if they had been darker and without songs, like the original.
No sequel is original.
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I hope to finally understand what you mean by "more like the original", but I don't think I can answer your question by simply saying yes or no.
I do not think that the singing in the sequels does any serious harm to the style of the movie. Some of the songs transfer important messages wich might sound clumsy if squeezed into a dialogue.
Whether or not the removal of the songs (which I doubt to be the one and only point that decides whether or not a sequel is "like the original") would be a good thing for the quality of the movie I cannot say. All I can say is that it would be a shame if some of the songs had never been made.
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No no no. I wasn't saying that removal of the songs alone would make them more like the original, although that get them a bit closer to the mark. You have to remember, there's also a whole lot of different between the tones of the story, such, as, the original was a whole lot more dark than the most serious sequel.
They could just play the songs we really loved in the end credits.
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I pointed out some of those darker effects in my previous message:
To begin with, the first movie seemed to show (never said so explicitely though) the Great Valley was the last green spot in a vast wasteland. In the sequels the Valley has partly been "disenchanted", most likely because it turned out impossible to limit all stories within the walls of the Great Valley.
Also, I don't think a friendship with a sharptooth would have been tolerated, at least not the easy way it was established in LBT 2, in a movie more strictly based on the original.
Finally the friendship between Littlefoot and the others was something extremely special in the original movie in which the racism among the various kinds could be felt very strongly. In the sequels it is hardly something special at all (with LBT 4 being a remarkable exception as it seems to limit the lack of racism on the Great Valley).
Just to be told that this was not what you was asking for :huh:
In the recent movies the final songs have been songs from the movie itself. Till then we had mostly variations of If we hold on together and other background melodies to accompany the closing credits. Credit music that receives to little credit. I for my part would really miss those as well.
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:yes I think they should be more like the origional movie. Sure, the sequals ar alright but the first movie was truely the best.
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If the sequels were more like the origional movie, they would be much better. Not that they aren't good anyway. They could do without all the singing though.
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Finally, someone who shares my view.
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I suppose most would agree with a statement that the sequels ought to be more like the original (I do to). However, I do not pinpoint any negative aspects of some sequels to the mere fact that they include singing dinosaurs. Some of the songs are a pain, but some are really beautiful and I'm willing to take the first into account for the later. I wouldn't want to miss songs such as "Always There", "No one has to be alone", and "Bestest Friends".
Is it just the songs for you? What other aspects are there you would want to be more like the original in the sequels?
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It is just that there is simply too much singing. I like some of those songs but yeah, the sons that the villians sing suck, I think. Villians don't need to sing.
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Malte, those examples are examples of decent songs. The latest film had perhaps the worst singing I've heard out of any animated film, in gee, my life. I've said that before. Even Fievel in the original American Tail sounded better.
Songs are fine, if they aren't put in, simply to be put in.
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Yeah, we had all that talking about songs already and I already told that there are absolutely horrific songs ("Who needs you", "The lesson" and the like) in LBT. But the topic of this thread is not limited to music (which is mainly a matter of taste difficult to discuss about). What other elements are there which you would want to have changed to make the sequels more like the original?
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Another thing is that the movies seem to be, how should I put it, hmm, perky. I mean, they could use a darker theme like the first movie.
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One instance concerning how the sequels should be like the original is the fact that Bluth, and the writers included a little thing that we all like to call "character developement".
It's like the characters evolved, emotionally, during the original, and then suddenly came to a stand still in maturity for the rest of the sequels, and I find it very unlikely that Cera would remain as vain and prejudiced as she always does after all those adventures considering that there is always at least one "Cera gets humiliated, or at least, proven wrong, yet again" scene in each new sequel. Come on! Cera may have been vain and such, but she wasn't a moron, and she showed that she was able to learn in the original.
I find it hard to believe that Spike still can't talk. I would have no reservations about them allowing him to become more intelligent. Nor would I resist the notion of Petrie or Ducky's grammar inproving.
As for Littlefoot: He's the only one who can get away with little or no character developement, because he's just a good, well-rounded character in himself. I have noticed that they started making him a bit more immature with each film, starting with LBT film #6.
Oh, and less songs. I will admit that some of the songs are good, but do they have to sing a lot in every sequel, and give me one good reason why the songs cannot be put into the background, with the orchestrated music. They could easily be talking about important plot points with the songs playing behind them, and if the audience is curious enough: well, companies have released the soundtracks to Direct-To-Video films before.
The useless adults: I know the children are the heroes, but come on! They're just kids! The adults should not be so useless!
Cera's dad: A continual, annoying thorn in my side for all the sequels. In the original film, he came off as kind of a tough soldier, who only spoke if he needed to (that is just my impression of him), but in the sequels: you have a better chance of getting Cera to shut up! And I know he has pride, but come on! Littlefoot is the reason his daughter is alive, and there, in the Valley.
Littlefoot's grandparents: They're supposedly so wise, but yes, they never really stand up for anything.
The disappearance of guest stars, even though some of them live in the valley: I don't see how it would be problematic to have Mr. Thicknose or Hyp and his cronies show up, sometimes. They are good acquaintences with Littlefoot, and his group, so I don't see how or why they'd never be present anymore.
Chomper: Chomper, the most unlikely return gueststar, is the only one who returns, and is set to return...again. :blink: How does that make sense?
Ally, and the promise at the end of #4: Why is it so hard to make her return? I don't see why it would be so bad? Nor do I see why it would be so difficult tojust have her return, permanantly, especially when I can easily see Ally being a character in a Don Bluth-made LBT sequel.
I think that about covers it.
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You do have some interesting points WR to some of which I agree to some of which I don't. :)
As for the matter of character developement, do you mean both physical and psychological developement? As for the physical we have again such a point where LBT fans have been disagreeing about for a long time already :lol:
I for my part don't like the idea of the characters actually growing up and change their outward appearance. I do not deny that it would be more realistic (from the realistic point of view Littlefoot would have to put on at least 2kilogramm each day from early age on) if they did grow up, but in this respect I really have to abandon my favor for realism for once. I really like them the way they are.
As for the psychological aspect, I do think that they have to learn from their experience and act accordingly, but on the other hand shouldn't totally abandon their ways. I think there is a certain degree of developement for the characters throughout the movies. Just take LBT 11 for example. Of all the characters (excluding Littlefoot) it is supposedly grumpy and intolerant Cera who turns out to be most protective and thoughtful towards the little longnecks. Maybe this is also because she is in a mood to defy her dad, yet whatever her reasons may be, I do see a developement there. The same goes for her attitude towards Tria and also for the attitude of her father towards her ("This is so much harder than yelling!").
This is but just one example. There are other learning processes we can observe throughout almost every single sequel.
I do not think that some of the basic characteristics of the characters should be abandoned for this though. What would we have if all the characters had learned all their lessons and behaved accordingly? Wouldn't we end up with a band of dinosaurs so well behaved that they would be difficult to stand? Cera by nature is an adventurous and to a certain degree bigoted character. Should she be tamed down to act precisely the way Littlefoot does (so long he doesn't lie about disappearing tree-sweets?). I don't really think so.
If the characters would all turn too reasonable I'm afraid they would also fade in color.
The same goes in my opinion for there way of talking, respectively not talking.
I understand Spike's muteness to be a physical disability; which by the way I consider a valuable element in a story like LBT. You may argue that it can't be a physical disability because he actually spoke in LBT 4 and uttered something that very much sounded like speech in LBT 8. However, you could really see how difficult it was for Spike to utter "Ducky" in LBT 4 and it was in a special situation. I don't think that he can command over his voice at mere will and I do not think his muteness is an indicator of lacking intelligence.
As for the talking of Ducky and Petrie it too makes a good deal of their characters I think. It would be a lot easier for me to let Petrie talk in a story if I knew that "I (Petrie) can speak English in a most appropriate and sophisticated manner!" but it wouldn't really be Petrie. And what would Ducky be without her "Yep, yep, yep!"?
I do agree however that the adults could play a more important role. I certainly wouldn't want them to oust Littlefoot and the others, but the grownups should be good for more than just committing the fooleries Littlefoot and the others have to correct or telling some words of wisdom occassionally. It would be interesting to turn out some more facettes about some of the grownup characters. Yet I do think that attempts of this have already been made. Cera's Dad in LBT 3 and 11 for example. There were other plots in which other parental characters should have had a chance to do and say a little more (Littlefoot's grandparents in LBT 10, Petrie's mother in LBT 7, Ducky's mother in LBT 8).
But what exactly do you mean by Littlefoot's grandparents not standing up for anything? I mean, they do play a relativelyactive part in some of the sequels, don't they? One thing I found interesting was the reaction of Littlefoot's grandfather about Pterano in LBT 7. I found his conduct so interesting that I used it in the story I'm writing too. Can you imagine Littlefoot's grandfather yelling at Littlefoot? ;)
As for the disappearing of guest stars I agree totally and unreserved with you! Characters like Hyp and his cronies, Dinah and Dana, Mr. Thicknose, Pat, Tria (who knows, we might see her again in LBT 12, I think I heard such a rumor, but I cannot pinpoint when or from whom I did, so don't take my word for it) who are residents to the Great Valley should return occasionally. They need not necessarily play a major role, but I think it would be a great imporvement if sometimes we were shown they are still alive. They could easily contribute to further stories even if they were not granted major roles.
As for Chomper, I don't oppose his return if it is done in a good manner. Sometimes I have the impression that fans lost some interest in him because he returned once. People are more focused on Ali whose (hopefully) impending return has reached almost the status of a "second coming legend" :lol: among LBT fans. I certainly look forward to such a "second coming", but I don't think Chomper is a bad character to bring back either. His being a sharptooth does set him apart from the others. The problems of his being a carnivore have been almost neglected so far however. It would give good stuff for another story I think, but it sure would also be difficult terrain for a land before time story. Maybe it could make for the "gloomier" LBT plot many people are asking for. Such a story would be tricky though. I don't like an overly simple solution (if there is such a thing as a "solution" at all) as it was offered on the same matter in the movie "Madagascar". Maybe one could combine a return of Chomper with a return of Ali?
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As for the matter of character developement, do you mean both physical and psychological developement? As for the physical we have again such a point where LBT fans have been disagreeing about for a long time already
I for my part don't like the idea of the characters actually growing up and change their outward appearance. I do not deny that it would be more realistic (from the realistic point of view Littlefoot would have to put on at least 2kilogramm each day from early age on) if they did grow up, but in this respect I really have to abandon my favor for realism for once. I really like them the way they are.
This is not what I was talking about at all.
As for the psychological aspect, I do think that they have to learn from their experience and act accordingly, but on the other hand shouldn't totally abandon their ways. I think there is a certain degree of developement for the characters throughout the movies. Just take LBT 11 for example. Of all the characters (excluding Littlefoot) it is supposedly grumpy and intolerant Cera who turns out to be most protective and thoughtful towards the little longnecks. Maybe this is also because she is in a mood to defy her dad, yet whatever her reasons may be, I do see a developement there. The same goes for her attitude towards Tria and also for the attitude of her father towards her ("This is so much harder than yelling!").
This is but just one example. There are other learning processes we can observe throughout almost every single sequel.
I do not think that some of the basic characteristics of the characters should be abandoned for this though. What would we have if all the characters had learned all their lessons and behaved accordingly? Wouldn't we end up with a band of dinosaurs so well behaved that they would be difficult to stand? Cera by nature is an adventurous and to a certain degree bigoted character. Should she be tamed down to act precisely the way Littlefoot does (so long he doesn't lie about disappearing tree-sweets?). I don't really think so.
I'm not saying that the basic characteristics should be abandoned, but I still don't see any character developement in the sequels, and it actually was little surprise to me that Cera was protective towards the little longnecks, because she has always done the right
thing when push comes to shove. And what I was saying concerning Cera is that her prejudice should have began to die down some, at least, by now. Cera will always be Cera, but she can be Cera without being so biased.
As for Littlefoot's situation in #11. That actually struck me more as "out-of-character"-ness than character developement.
If the characters would all turn too reasonable I'm afraid they would also fade in color.
Not what I was suggesting. There's always a problem with someone, but it seems that same old problems and gone over and gone over and gone over, time and again here. If the creators were really "creative", they'd at least present new problems for Littlefoot and the others more often. Yes, they present new situations, but I can never shake the feeling that we're going over an old issue here, in several of the sequels.
The same goes in my opinion for there way of talking, respectively not talking.
I understand Spike's muteness to be a physical disability; which by the way I consider a valuable element in a story like LBT. You may argue that it can't be a physical disability because he actually spoke in LBT 4 and uttered something that very much sounded like speech in LBT 8. However, you could really see how difficult it was for Spike to utter "Ducky" in LBT 4 and it was in a special situation. I don't think that he can command over his voice at mere will and I do not think his muteness is an indicator of lacking intelligence.
Spike is very simple, I think. And of course, Spike's muteness was not innitially a physical disability in the original, as he was just hatched, and the filmmakers have never really bothered to do much with his character, outside of a rare moment found in #4, and then that abysmal mess that was film #8.
As for the talking of Ducky and Petrie it too makes a good deal of their characters I think. It would be a lot easier for me to let Petrie talk in a story if I knew that "I (Petrie) can speak English in a most appropriate and sophisticated manner!" but it wouldn't really be Petrie. And what would Ducky be without her "Yep, yep, yep!"?
I suppose this one does bore too different opinions, doesn't it? For me, at least, the incorrect use of grammar and the "yep, yep, yep" are overused, old gags that have long since lost their charm. And I'm not saying that they should make Petrie into a suave, smooth talker, but it would be nice to see him, say, progress a little, in the area of the vocabulary.
I do agree however that the adults could play a more important role. I certainly wouldn't want them to oust Littlefoot and the others, but the grownups should be good for more than just committing the fooleries Littlefoot and the others have to correct or telling some words of wisdom occassionally. It would be interesting to turn out some more facettes about some of the grownup characters.
Too true, my friend.
Yet I do think that attempts of this have already been made. Cera's Dad in LBT 3 and 11 for example. There were other plots in which other parental characters should have had a chance to do and say a little more (Littlefoot's grandparents in LBT 10, Petrie's mother in LBT 7, Ducky's mother in LBT 8).
But what exactly do you mean by Littlefoot's grandparents not standing up for anything? I mean, they do play a relativelyactive part in some of the sequels, don't they?
Littlefoot's grandparents supposed are no wise and great, yet I've yet to see them finally just stand up for anthing. An example: they've had a number of opportunities to stand up to Threehorn and put him in his place, especially when they are the only ones who can do it. Despite this, it's interesting that they had no reservations about talking down to Pterano. Also, most of the advise they give is very typical. Heck, I can give Littlefoot the exact same advise, myself.
One thing I found interesting was the reaction of Littlefoot's grandfather about Pterano in LBT 7. I found his conduct so interesting that I used it in the story I'm writing too. Can you imagine Littlefoot's grandfather yelling at Littlefoot?
Actually, no, I can't see Littlefoot's grandpa yelling at him, not unless he did something realllllllllllly bad.
As for the disappearing of guest stars I agree totally and unreserved with you! Characters like Hyp and his cronies, Dinah and Dana, Mr. Thicknose, Pat, Tria (who knows, we might see her again in LBT 12, I think I heard such a rumor, but I cannot pinpoint when or from whom I did, so don't take my word for it) who are residents to the Great Valley should return occasionally. They need not necessarily play a major role, but I think it would be a great imporvement if sometimes we were shown they are still alive. They could easily contribute to further stories even if they were not granted major roles.
Absolutely.
For Hyp, Mutt, an Nod, I think small appearances in #5, #6, and #8 would not have been difficult for the filmmakers to mix in. In #5: the whole population of the Great Valley is traveling together, and they could easily have appeared for a few scenes. IN #6: they, perhaps, could have brought some humor to the plot when the bad luck was going scouring the Valley. Can you just imagine the comedic sequence that could have been! :lol: #8: more humor concerning snow and ice! They could be regular looney tunes for this series, if given the chance. In #11: they could actually have had a decent sized role for that one.
And as for Mr. Thicknose, despite strickly being a dinosaurian scholar, he could easily be useless with his advise, from time to time.
As for Chomper, I don't oppose his return if it is done in a good manner.
No argument here, except that everytime you want to use Chomper, you have to have some darn good excuse concerning why he's hanging around, and how he got there. And now that he's stranded on that island, the difficulty of reintroducing him to the series is practicely infinite!
Sometimes I have the impression that fans lost some interest in him because he returned once. People are more focused on Ali whose (hopefully) impending return has reached almost the status of a "second coming legend" among LBT fans. I certainly look forward to such a "second coming", but I don't think Chomper is a bad character to bring back either. His being a sharptooth does set him apart from the others. The problems of his being a carnivore have been almost neglected so far however. It would give good stuff for another story I think, but it sure would also be difficult terrain for a land before time story. Maybe it could make for the "gloomier" LBT plot many people are asking for. Such a story would be tricky though. I don't like an overly simple solution (if there is such a thing as a "solution" at all) as it was offered on the same matter in the movie "Madagascar". Maybe one could combine a return of Chomper with a return of Ali?
An Ali AND Chomper guest appear in one LBT film? That would be interesting! I'd also like to see the issue of him being a sharptooth gone over in more detail, as well, and it would be very fitting if a solution to this was never, officially, found, and if it was just left inconclusive.
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yes, the sequels are good as they are(except 11,12 and 13) but they would be even better if they stayed true to the original.
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Wow, this is an OLD topic!
Still, it does bring up some pretty good points. However, I'm still not exactly sure what "true to the original" really means, other than the opinion that the sequels should have less songs and be darker, as in having more sadness and anger to balence out the ridiculous amounts of happiness in the later sequels.