The Gang of Five
Beyond the Mysterious Beyond => The Arts => Sound Off! => Topic started by: Petrie. on August 26, 2007, 07:27:44 PM
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Just thought I'd share this with you guys. There's is definite proof that CD's are being mixed and made too loud, so loud the recording clips and sounds awful. This has been steadily increasing now that sound engineers know a lot about recording limits of 16-bit PCM.
Allow me to share some "action scene" CD samples (the closer the blue lines are to the edges, the closer to clipping the recording is and the louder it has become):
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e294/mr300/loudnesswars/landbefore.jpg)
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e294/mr300/loudnesswars/homeward.jpg)
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e294/mr300/loudnesswars/jurassic.jpg)
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e294/mr300/loudnesswars/mewtwo.jpg)
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e294/mr300/loudnesswars/wicked.jpg)
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e294/mr300/loudnesswars/pirates.jpg)
The only one that really clips and distorts badly is that track from Pirates. I'm actually glad they didn't bring back that engineer for the next two soundtracks because that is just god awful with the money and expertise Disney has in the entertainment industry to let things go like that.
Also, notice that the louder the encoding goes, the less dynamic range the recording has to play with. In the LBT sample, there is practically silence before that BANG on the tympani and you can see it gets quieter and louder as different instruments play what is shown on screen. Homeward Bound and Jurassic Park have good dynamic ranges in their albums too. By the late 90s, albums started turning louder, as evidenced by at least one sample I've shown - the score to the Japanese version of Mewtwo Strikes Back, but the sound and volume is not piercingly loud. By the time you get to Wicked and Pirates of the Caribbean in 2003, sound levels are near distortion and going beyond what 16-bit audio can handle, and dynamic peaks and valleys no longer are that evident. If remastered today, I could guarantee that track from LBT would be normalized to lessen that BANG so people don't have to fiddle with volume knobs. :rolleyes: Maybe some sound engineers need to go to an actual concert and see that the orchestra doesn't play at one volume level.
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Oh, Good Lord at that Pirates sample! :blink:
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I never really paid enough attention to notice things like that.
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It's truly amazing how commercial music producers don't seem to understand the concept of keeping the signal level below 100% :p
I am surprised that the Wicked soundtrack is mastered so badly...the PoTC one I was already aware of.
The fact that even amatuers such as Petrie and myself are aware of the concept that signal levels above -0dB = BAD, yet professionals still do this in their mixes. When working on our LBT songs for example, I am very conscious of these levels and make sure they never peak over -0dB. There is so much pressure to produce a "full-sounding" mix nowadays that mixers are taking it way too far. It's bad enough that the detail of the sound is being destroyed, but it's introducing unacceptable amounts of distortion, crackling and noise into the music. No good. B)
near distortion
As soon as the signal goes over 1111 1111 1111 1111 (-0dB for 16-bit) the signal is Definitely being distorted. You can't get a bigger number than that in 16-bit :p
going beyond what 16-bit audio can handle
16-bit audio can handle I believe 96dB of dynamic variance. That is plenty of room to play with in all but the most expressive orchestral and dynamic pieces. There is no excuse for clipping 16-bit audio in any case. If the mixer needs to compress the dynamic range to avoid clipping, they should do so. I do this quite often in our LBT songs (some of the recordings I've received had some pretty wicked dynamic ranges in them! :lol ). 24-bit opens up to 144 dB of dynamic headroom but not everyone (CDs included) supports 24-bit audio.
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Even I can do better. :lol: This is my mix when I did my solo version of "Best of Friends". I make sure there's a 3db buffer from 100% on anything I do.
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e294/mr300/loudnesswars/adamsmixingability-p.jpg)
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Adam versus Audio Mixer for Pirates:
Adam: 1
Pirates: 0
;) :lol:
E-cookie for Adam! :D
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Chocolate chip please. :D B)
Remember, these are movie scores....if you want to see something scary, look at a recent pop album. :blink: Pure noise. No music. :x
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if you want to see something scary, look at a recent pop album. :blink: Pure noise. No music. :x
Ugh! :x
Give me Bestest Friends (any version) over people playing guitar and wailing like banshees giving birth any day.
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I have to admit that when I first saw the topic title on the board index, I thought it was about punks driving by at night with their windows lowered and their speakers banging out like helicopters.
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EDIT: Double post.
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I have to admit that when I first saw the topic title on the board index, I thought it was about punks driving by at night with their windows lowered and their speakers banging out like helicopters.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Yeah well there's a lot of those out there too, playing that badly remastered stuff that's already loud, as loud as possible. Since most put the sub in the trunk, I'm waiting for the day I'm near one and the trunk lid blows off or something. :p :wow
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I'm waiting for the day I'm near one and the trunk lid blows off or something.
Well that's not very nice! :lol :p
My trunk is actually being used to haul cargo now, as opposed to a subwoofer. I've been content with the sound quality of my car stereo and haven't been able to justify installing my amp/sub. ;)
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I find those cars that drive around with those stupid speakers tooned in to max, pretty lame. Mostly because most of the time the songs are lame, but what's with the attention? You're gonna go death! Not to speak of the danger since you can't hear a thing besides the music.
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I do remember seeing a show about annoying things, and they blasted this radio in a car at Full Max, and the windows broke! :blink:
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I do remember seeing a show about annoying things, and they blasted this radio in a car at Full Max, and the windows broke! :blink:
They tried to do that on Mythbusters and the sunroof blew open on their test car. Sound waves are very powerful...that why your ears hurt so much is because of the pressure created on the eardrum.
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Hahaha, I saw that. I think they wanted to blow the car up entirely (as per the myth), but the waves found a way out -- through the sun roof! :lol
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*bump*
Neptune might be interested in the thread.
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You bet your bellybutton; I have things to say about this!
...Yeah; CDs are different than pretty much anything analog... They need to be mixed differently to achieve a good result. Heh, hmm... Here's a good example of a remix gone BAD:
Miles Davis - in my opinion, one of the greatest Jazz musicians in history - created, back in 1969 - IMMEDIATELY after Woodstock, nonetheless - an album called "B****es Brew," with the help of his producer, Teo Macero. (Man, the record is a thing unto itself, but that's another story.) Anyway... Teo really knew what he was doing with the editing, and the mixing; all was well. Then, one day at CBS, Teo got introduced to CDs. He said that CDs are too "light;" they need to be mixed right... Well, he was right - YHWH rest his weary soul, and Miles too, boy... (Gawd, ya know, I wish I could have met them... :( ) Anyway, back to "B****es Brew," and CD mixing... In 1994, Teo finally mixed "B****es Brew" for CD - this was a couple years after Miles had died - but, he said, in an interview - an interview that I find HIGHLY enlightening; I will post it in a minute because Teo makes a lot of good points that are my almost exact thoughts - that, the producers nowadays, they think it all makes it okay, from analog to digital, but, it doesn't... It needs to be mixed right. So, Teo mixed "B****es Brew" the way he would mix anything from analog to digital - he treated it like the old analog record, saying things like, at two minutes in, we have to add a little more bass here, then maybe some more later... It just wouldn't sound right otherwise. (I personally don't have quite the ears for this thing, unfortunately - or the equipment.) Anyway, it's the Columbia Jazz Masterpieces edition; it sounds really good, like you're listening to the analog record! It has some nice, soft bass; you could even crank it - sometimes you have to because of the quiet basslines - and you won't get your eardrums blown out! It's actually SOFT... A soft bass... Anyway, 1998 rolls around, and Sony decides to remaster - Yah forbid - the album, and "recreate" it, at that! Oh, because the master was worn out... Just copy it, you idiots! Anyway, they remaster "B****es Brew," and oh my god! It sounds horrible! Not only that, but, they create it on a boxset, a misnomer set called "The Complete B****es Brew Sessions;" four discs... Then, one year later, they take those remastered tracks, and remaster "B****es Brew" by itself... Oh god, it sounds... Tinny! It's too "open," also; there's too much distinction between the basslines - yes, multiple basslines - the horn echo starts out faster and stronger, but fades just as quick...! There's even a section they missed! :angry: In "Pharaoh's Dance," the opening track - about 20 minutes in length - there's a trumpet phrase that Miles plays, at about eight and a half minutes in. On the original - and the Teo Macero-approved CD version (CJM edition) - there is a, umm... Reverb effect? The phrase itself is looped OVER the first instance of itself, and made a little bit louder/"foregrounded" - oh god, it's beautiful - they lost that in the remix! :angry: :angry: Also, they added a "bonus track," "Feio," to the end...! Now understand me, I don't mind the concept of hearing something from Miles that we would otherwise never hear, but, I DO mind it when it's re-released onto a remastered album; in this case, it's even WORSE because the whole thing is tampered with! However, Miles Davis wouldn't have ever agreed to its release - especially on a complete album - nor would he agree with the methods that Bob Belden and Michael Cuscuna used to "remaster" his music. And neither does - did - Teo... You know, it's sad? But, when a record company decides to remaster ("destroy") a record, you know what happens to the good version? BOOM! It goes bye-bye. And guess what? You can't find that version hardly ANYWHERE, anymore! There IS a copy of it, in lossless FLAC format, online, but, ehh... The methods to obtain it are, um... Yeah - less than "honorable." But then again, there isn't any "honor" in what Bob Belden and Michael Cuscuna did to "B****es Brew," or "Kind of Blue," or "Big Fun," or ANY other record that Miles did - or anyone else did - for that matter... So, am I playing with a double-edged sword by admitting this to you guys? You bet your bottom dollar I am!! -_- <_< :angry: :angry:
...Tell you guys what, I'll link you to a page on my site, that will link to the Teo interview, and also, a behind-the-scenes look, sort of, article, at how that particular boxset ("The Complete B****es Brew Sessions") was made. (I'm doing it this way, because, one of the links has "b****es" uncensored as part of it, and I don't want to post it directly on here, for censorship reasons. Even though I don't think Miles meant for the album name to be derogatory... :p ) Oh, by the way, there's more to that set than the "B****es Brew sessions," too... Their criteria for determining what was a "B****es Brew session track," and what wasn't, was that, in March 1970, Miles Davis switched from using two Fender Rhodes pianos, to just one, and a very heavy guitar-based sound, for the session for the album, "A Tribute to Jack Johnson." (March 1970?! What a joke! The actual "B****es Brew sessions" were culled from merely three days of playing!) Well, you wanna know WHY that happened? He had no choice! Chick Corea actually wore them out! He had to "steal" the third Fender Rhodes from Teo! ...Not a very good definition, is it?! ...You know WHY they didn't just pull all the outtakes from the original "B****es Brew" master, and only those, for this boxset? (It probably wouldn't have "worked" for a boxset anyway, for the following reason...) Because, Teo KNEW about mistakes in a record, and he couldn't stand 'em! So, SOME of those outtakes actually got CUT right out of the master... (I can at least, LISTEN to outtakes, but I don't really like them...) And, the reason why Miles didn't want these other "bonus" tracks released - not just the extra "B****es Brew" tracks, but all the misnomer stuff as well - is because he felt they were inferior! That they would kill a complete record - and he was right!
...Anyway guys, here's the link... I gotta go eat dinner. The Teo interview is a very thought-provoking read!:
http://www.geocities.com/anewonline/lwsfr.html (http://www.geocities.com/anewonline/lwsfr.html)
Oh yeah, and, you may want to read my new signature as well... Heh...
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I had noticed that the music in movies and maybe sound effects have been getting louder and louder, part of why I somewhat can't take new movies anymore. Funny thing is the 1 or 2 people I mentioned this to didn't notice it till after I mentioned it. I didn't know it was adding in a distortion, but it does make sense. I guess some folks who work in the industry prefer loudness over quality, not caring, or knowing, about the distortion.
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The reason a lot don't realize it is because of all the rereleases that are loud and everything sounds loud, unlike the first albums released on cd with decent overhead. Then you hear the difference and you're like, "wow, I guess there really is a difference, and its not always that good".
Neptune, jazz purists are exceedingly picky about their recordings that's for sure! ;) You're right in step with them....a bad remastering ruins the experience and that's a large reason why they keep cd/vinyl releases only, and don't even touch mp3 or lossy encoders. Hopefully you found that lossless source and can enjoy Miles Davis the way it was meant to be. :)
Is this your album: http://www.amazon.com/Bitches-Brew-Miles-D...12062719&sr=1-6 (http://www.amazon.com/Bitches-Brew-Miles-Davis/dp/B00000J7SS/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1212062719&sr=1-6)
A couple of one star reviews mention the bad mastering.
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That, my dear friend, would be the remastered version, with the "Feio" bonus track... ...Yeah, that's the headache one... :x
...Yeah, I found it, but, uhm, like I said, well... I had to uhh... Well... You know... -_- ...Yeah, I found it; I wish others could hear it too... Kuu... :(
EDIT: Ehh, here's a picture of what the Columbia Jazz Masterpieces edition looks like (it's distinct, no mistaking it); I've checked all "buy" links for it, but they all seem to lead to the remaster - ARGH:
http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/mil..._masterpieces_/ (http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/miles_davis/bitches_brew__columbia_jazz_masterpieces_/)
This is sad...
EDIT 2: And furthermore, for the record; Jazz musicians aren't the only ones who are picky about their music... Now, I know he's done some Jazz stuff too, but, this guy's multi-genred; Bob Dylan is saying the same things about the new "remastered" versions of his albums, too; he doesn't like them the way they are now, and that they sounded better back then...
And, finally, everybody today that talks about Miles Davis and his time with Teo Macero, they all seem to think that Miles did what Teo wanted. Take "In a Silent Way," for example. Everybody seems to think - after hearing "The Complete In a Silent Way Sessions" - that Teo himself cut the fourty-eight reels of tapes, down to two, and played around a bit with what was left. Actually, the reverse is true; it was MILES who didn't want all that extra stuff on the record. There was so little left, that Teo had to take a piece from the beginning, and put it at the end - for both tracks! "Shhh/Peaceful/Shhh" and "In a Silent Way/It's About That Time/In a Silent Way." That's how Teo had to do it. And, one of the most important things, is that, these people think that Teo just mixed the tapes, and that was that. While it is true that Miles only came to the studio like, four times out of 29 years (The "In a Silent Way" thing was ONE of those times), Teo would always send Miles an acetate, or whatever, and he would say, "Do you like that Miles?" And Miles would either give his approval, or disapproval. Most people today, think that the opposite was true. Well, it certainly is TODAY, but, that's not how it was back THEN! If Miles didn't like it, they'd go back and do it again!
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Ouch ouch ouch! I had to add this after buying another cd. This time it was Monty Python's Spamalot from the broadway musical. I had mp3 copies of the songs and they sounded bad because they're so loud. I figured it was the mp3 files (sometimes they clip after encoding from cds), so I went and bought the cd. Its the cd that is bad...distorted, overcompressed garbage!!!! :anger Pirates of the Caribbean was bad...this is worse because there are lyrics and hard as hell to hear them!
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Is that the current trend for music in general currently, mp3 & cd's or just sometimes done here and there? I think in movies it is the current trend for some reason.
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Yep, sorry to say it is the trend. Keep your old 1980s copies of music, even if they seem quiet and somewhat flat in sound. They won't be mastered loudly, overcompressed, and of a constant volume. Generally speaking, classical music and movie scores are not hurt by this excessively loud music trend.
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Sounds like it's better to stay away from music altogether.
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Well, no just realize the trend and look for older releases when they're available (and probably for cheap too). Like I said, this largely applies to the pop/rock/metal arena and even broadway stuff is getting loud. I don't think I could live without music, so I just try to find the best recording.
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& movies also, to my limited experience. I guess the younger folks, and some older ones, all prefer things very loud & distorted. Like movies having the music & sound effects louder then the dialog.
It does sound like what one has to do is do without, or find older versions of recordings, if they exist.
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This is even true with i-pod downloads.
I played a Evanescence song, "Lithium" and I kept the volume at just at "1" and I could hear it clearly and it wasn't too soft. A lot the music I have though is like that. Keep it at a low level and it will be okay, but even at a low volume level it can seem "loud".
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I Still wonder why they do this for.
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Music showed signs of being totally commercial rather than a form of art back in the 80's. Now, almost everything's like that. The records just keep getting louder apparently because it sells better. Sure it could be a lot more meaningful a different way, but this sells more.
Go counterculture revivalists!