The Gang of Five
The Land Before Time => General Land Before Time => Topic started by: landbeforetimelover on March 10, 2008, 06:22:53 AM
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I was just wondering, why in the world didn't Bron head to the great valley after he had heard that his wife had died? I mean, I could see searching for Littlefoot for a little while, but he obviously searched for a long time. Didn't it occur to him that his wife might have told Littlefoot about the valley before she died and that Littlefoot might have been trying to reach it? If I were Bron, I would have searched for a few days and then went straight to the great valley, hoping to meet my son on the way there. Even if I didn't meet him there, there was a greater probability that I would come there rather than me finding him by randomly searching. He said that the bright circle fell and rose many times on his search, so I'd say he searched for a long time before finding Shorty and the others. Why didn't he head to the great valley?
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Bron's lame excuses are perhaps the worst red rag that any land before time movie ever had in store for me! :angry:
I'm quoting from another thread (http://www.gangoffive.net/index.php?topic=381):
1. To explain all the discrepancies of Bron's story, we need to remember the original movie. The story he is telling must have begun shortly before the beginning of the original land before time movie.
Yet where were Bron and Littlefoot's mother (whom they didn't bother to give so much as the same color she had in the original movie) in a lush, green, Great Valley like landscape. The landscape they showed was just a perfect nesting place for Bron and his wife. There was no point for him to leave his pregnant wife to look for a better place. They had a really good place already!
2. The way Bron tells the story it appears that almost the moment he left the world turned upside down and changed into the desolate wasteland we know from the original movie. This is highly unlikely and doesn't seem at all the way the situation is described in the original movie. Even if it was a sudden change from paradise to wasteland, would not a responsible Bron have returned immediately to find his wife and unborn hatchling? According to his tale he did, but if this was true, how come he didn't find them? First of all, if there was such a sudden change of situation I reckon Littlefoot's mother would have waited for Bron as long as possible, as she and her parents (the way the contact between Bron and Littlefoot's grandparents is shown we can take it for granted they are not Bron's parents) knew he was going to return as soon as he could (if he ever meant to return). Even if lack of food forced them to move on after all (Bron must have been really far away indeed not to be back by that time) it would have been easy enough for Bron to follow the fresh trail of three grownup longnecks (As Cera pointed out in LBT 10 they leave clear tracks) who certainly tried to leave a clear trail for Bron to follow. There is absolutely no justification why Bron didn't return to his wife right away!
3. So even if we assume that, in his overeagerness to find even better a nesting place for his dear wife, Bron had wandered so far off that he couldn't possibly be back in time to pick up the trail and reunite with his wife his eagerness to find Littlefoot may be doubted for the points I'm going to explain.
The existence of the Great Valley was obviously not a secret. Littlefoot told Ducky in the original movie that his mother had told him that all herds were heading there. Yet Bron, in spite of the fact he claims to have done everything to find his son (even after learning about the death of his wife) apparently didn't think to look at the most logical place. Was he the only one who never ever heard about the Great Valley? Even if nobody ever told him it is interesting to recall how Littlefoot's mother knew about the Great Valley "Some things you see with your eyes! Others you see with your heard!" Apparently Bron's heart never told him anything, a point I won't argue as I doubt so cold a heart as his would talk.
However, there is no justification for Bron never ever to search for his son at the place that was obviously the most logical destination for him to go!
4. I can hear the enraged shouts. How dare I calling this gentle longneck and great leader cold-hearted?
I'll lay it out to you. We are all very fond of him for taking care of Shorty and all the poor defenseless longneck kids he found when he was allegedly looking for his son. But he doesn't! Just take a look at that flashback. He checks whether his son is among the kids, finds he isn't, and moves on. Bron doesn't even open his mouth. No word of encouragement, no question if they know anything about the whereabouts of his son, and least of all an invitation to the kids to come along with him. He didn't decide to take care of the kids. They just followed him, knowing it would be safer for them and Bron apparently didn't mind. He did not offer his protection to them, they just took it.
Shorty in particular is a good example for Bron's indifference. You think Shorty (a character by the way whom I consider one of the positive points about LBT 10) would have ever turned into a bully if Bron had cared about him beyond saving him from being killed so long he stayed close enough? Throughout the whole movie the only scene in which Bron shows direct kindness to Shorty is when during the herd's departure he takes him onto his head. Shorty might have considered Bron a father, but Bron did not consider him a son. Just listen to what he told Littlefoot. All the others found parents, but not Shorty. I really pity Shorty. Bron seems to be more like a leader than a parent to him. It is not for kindness that Bron took care of anyone!
5. Speaking of taking care, let's take a look at how much Bron cares about his herd. He says he cannot accompany Littlefoot and his grandparents to the Great Valley as he has to go back to his herd. Now that's noble, isn't it? He would so much prefer to come along with his son, but he will sacrifice his personal luck for the well-being of his herd which apparently cannot survive a day without him...
But wait a second, is not the herd supposed to be right there, at the crater where the solar eclipse occurred? All longnecks were supposed to be there!
We know that all longnecks were not there. Ali and her herd was missing and so was Doc. There must have been quite a few who either didn't have that dream or didn't get there in time. But how is it possible that Bron and a part of his herd was there, but another part wasn't? There is no doubt that not all of Bron's herd was there, as he told Littlefoot he was looking forward to introduce him to the rest of the herd. Now can you give me a reason why Bron would leave what must be a considerable part of the herd rather than leading all of them there? I have a theory and as you may expect it doesn't cast a positive light on Bron, but I beg you to give me a better reason.
It appears that Bron left behind the part of his herd that was too slow to make it to the crater in time for the solar eclipse. If he really did, doesn't that mean that he must have left the old, the weak, the too young kids etc. behind? Not the kind of herd members a good leader should leave to their fate! I just hope he left some strong longnecks behind to protect them. Bron must have something that makes other dinosaurs follow him, but he doesn't show any of the responsibility true leadership demands!
6. Did you notice how Bron talked to Littlefoot about sharpteeth? "Sharpteeth are cowards!" Even though the statement seems to apply to the extremely harmless sharpteeth in the land before time 10 I wish he would say that into the face of the sharptooth who killed Littlefoot's mother!
Bron's statement is a generalization and it is also quite insensitive talking this way in front of Littlefoot whose mother was killed by a sharptooth. Also I wonder if Littlefoot thought of Chomper when his father said this. Wouldn't Chomper be a perfect counterproof? It does take courage to attack a grownup sharptooth while you are still a hatchling, and it does take courage (even for a grownup sharptooth) to attack huge leafeaters.
Bron doesn't need to fear sharpteeth, for he is invulnerable! We see a sharptooth biting his leg, but it doesn't cause much more than an "Ouch". We don't see a scratch, Bron doesn't limb or anything. They could have made all this so much more dramatic if they had stirred up some memories about the death of Littlefoot's mother. Bron is arrogant and invulnerable!
7. Bron had given Littlefoot up! Even though he apparently never heard anything about him after learning about the death of his mother, he just stopped looking. What Bron says to Littlefoot is: "I can't wait to introduce you to the others back home". The statement leaves no doubt that Bron's herd is not a herd of migrators (as Ali's) but has one place to stay, similar to the Great Valley I suppose. This fact does weaken the reproach of Bron being irresponsible for leaving the herd to head for the place where the solar eclipse takes place. So long he leaves them at a save, protected place...
However, it also raises the question why they depend on him at all. If they are in a place save enough to be left behind there by Bron (a place where they have stayed long enough to call it home), what for do they need a leader anyway? The Great Valley doesn't have one leader either, and there is not a one of the dinosaurs in the Great Valley that is so important for the Valley that his or her departure would cause any serious harm for the Valley's population.
8. Finally, if Bron was indeed so great and admirable character, how come that in nine previous movies he was so much ignored, that Littlefoot didn't even know he had a dad? Was there a good reason for Littlefoot's grandparents to try to conceal Bron from Littlefoot? Perhaps so. Littlefoot's grandparents may well have intended not to tell Littlefoot about Bron, fearing that he would risk his life trying to find his father. Still I'm not sure that explaination justifies leaving Littlefoot so ignorant he didn't even know he had a Dad.
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I hate to break it to y'all, but perhaps Papa was a rolling stone, if ya know what I mean :rolleyes:.
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They could have made all this so much more dramatic if they had stirred up some memories about the death of Littlefoot's mother.
When he said "sharpteeth are cowards!" I thought he said that because of the sharptooth that killed littlefoot's mother. I'd certainly call someone a coward if they killed my wife. (if i had one :lol )
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That is one of the things in the movies and tv series that if one thinks about it makes no sense, like in on of the episodes, why Ruby's family didn't to to the great valley with her when they had the chance. Certain things in LBT make no sense.
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I don't really think the sharptooth's fight with Littlefoot's mother was an act of cowardice. She was larger than Sharptooth and I expect she probably matched Sharptooth's strength. Grownup sharpteeth attacking kids or ambushing their prey may perhaps be labeled "cowards" (though one might also wonder about how deep the idea of "avoiding risks for the own safety" is rooted in LBT dinosaurs thinking). I guess burying two unconscious and defenseless enemies alive (as was done in LBT 6) may be regarded as cowardice, but apparently the end justifies the means so long the acting characters are leafeaters. -_-
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I had thought about writing a fanfic that would use my ideas for why Bron did what he did, but I'd lost interest in it.
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She was larger than Sharptooth and I expect she probably matched Sharptooth's strength.
Littlefoot's mother is immensely strong, but The Sharptooth seems to be MUCH stronger, almost to the point of being unnaturally strong (How do you explain a leap of what seems to be over 100 ft, straight up?).
Perhaps Bron didn't know about the Great Valley.
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If burdened with the weights the legs of Littlefoot's mother carried every day I suppose Sharptooth would have collapsed. The fight was not just about strength of course. In any case I don't really see it as an act of cowardice on the part of the sharptooth.
As for Bron not knowing about the Great Valley:
The existence of the Great Valley was obviously not a secret. Littlefoot told Ducky in the original movie that his mother had told him that all herds were heading there. Yet Bron, in spite of the fact he claims to have done everything to find his son (even after learning about the death of his wife) apparently didn't think to look at the most logical place. Was he the only one who never ever heard about the Great Valley? Even if nobody ever told him it is interesting to recall how Littlefoot's mother knew about the Great Valley "Some things you see with your eyes! Others you see with your heard!" Apparently Bron's heart never told him anything, a point I won't argue as I doubt so cold a heart as his would talk.
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That is one of the many things you have to try to ignore if you are to watch certain movies or tv episodes. If you watch and don't look there will likely be certain things that pop up that annoy you, even more if you look for them. Just more proof there is no person overlooking stuff to ensure there is quality and things all tie in. They do like most of hollywood does, focus on the current project and mainly ignore what went on before so they do not pay any attention to certain details or ensure overall that everything ties in with little or no errors.
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There is a difference though between minor errors which can sometimes hardly be avoided in order to keep a story going (there were many examples in the TV series episodes I have seen so far, but it would be somewhat exaggerated to get in a state about these minor things) and major plotholes and lack of coherence as displayed in LBT 10. Even without taking the original movie into account LBT 10 was self-contradictory. Bron's words just don't match his deeds.
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So, the logical conclusion that someone could arrive at from these facts is that Bron is a lying cheat?
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If we consider all LBT movies to be part of the same story, yes.
But I don't really blame Bron, but the makers of LBT 10 who just didn't spend enough thought on the plot of LBT 10 and the character Bron in particular.
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The problem is not with Bron but the lack of quality control, and perhaps with the sciptwriting some would say. But there is no one that forces folks to look at previous established facts and tell them you must rewrite this part of the script since this is established fact from movie x. Almost no one does this in movies or tv series since that takes effort and most folks do not want to do that.
The quality of the writing and certain things that always happen in juvenile fiction is another topic, with the adults having to be made to do nothing so the kids who are the focus can get to do all the important stuff.
This movie has some pretty large holes, why did Ali's herd and Doc not have the same dream, why have the dream at all in the first place. They could have had it be a tradition that when x is seen in the sky, longnecks go to this place or some other reason.
Makes me wonder how many books someone would get out of doing a nitpickers guide to LBT, like the person did of the various star trek series.
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The quality of the writing and certain things that always happen in juvenile fiction is another topic, with the adults having to be made to do nothing so the kids who are the focus can get to do all the important stuff.
One ought not to underestimate the ability of kids to detect plotholes though. Many kids are smarter than many grownups credit them to be. Sometimes it is good advise to listen to some things children say.
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Kids that are age "appropriate" to watch LBT are usually too dumbed up and inexperienced to see anything, but there are some exceptions. It depends on when the kids get out of the movies. If they still were into them at the age of say 9, well then they'd probably notice some stuff.
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When I was much younger that was why I started to read far more adult fiction then juvenile fiction was due to such plot holes that kept popping up, except in some juvenile fiction that seems better written.
It's one of those things you have to try to overlook since some juvenile fiction has certain of the same elements, like incompetent adults or ones who have to be incompetent at certain plot points.
Then there is just bad writing that can happen in any sort of fiction. One can have an overall well written story that has certain spots that have bad writing.
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I've read a lot of adult fiction as well, and i'm just a kid myself, although i haven't seen anything i've never understood in anything so far.
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As I remember when I was a kid and started to read adult fiction the only real adjust ment I had to make was the fact that adult fiction didn't have a lot of pictures like the juvenile fiction often did. No idea if it is still like that or not.
The Bron explanation is one of the things about that movie that bug me. When I watch it again I will likely pick which scenes to jump over or fast forward through, so I can enjoy parts of the movie still.
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There is some fiction though where the age of the reader hardly matters. Of course a grownup would perceive it different from the way a child would perceive it, but both would enjoy it. Some of these stories are really excellent. I consider "The Neverending Story" by Michael Ende (the book! Forget about the movies!) one of those.
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Bron was probably seeing another longneck. :o
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Even somebody as critical of LBT 10 and Bron as I didn't come up with that suggestion yet. This however would suggest that Bron and Littlefoot's grandparents had some serious talk throughout LBT 10 (not impossible looking at the presence / absence of characters on the screen throughout LBT 10).
I recall there was a discussion before LBT 10 was released (but when the inclusion of Littlefoot's father had already been announced) in which somebody suggested some kind of "You had your chance with our daughter" kind of talk for the movie to come. I'm not sure if it was in the GOF or in the N54 forum though.
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It would make sense Littlefoot's grandparents and Bron would have had some sort of talk offscreen at some point, a thing we didn't get to see as I recall.
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Bron never struck me as being overwhelmingly bright either. Littlefoot must have inherited all the intelligence genes from his mom. He certainly didn't get them from dear ol' dad. :p And what kind of heartless dick would choose a herd of strangrs over their own son? <_< Bron never was one of my favorites.
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He knew Littlefoot was in the great Valley ( i think) and chose to lead the herd of strangers because if he left them to find littlefoot, they most likely would have been attacked by sharpteeth or possibly starve to death.
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But what exactly are the qualities of Bron that would make a herd so dependent on him? Why would a herd starve or be attacked by sharpteeth the moment Bron is not there? Of course it may have something to do with the fact that Bron is invulnerable (the sharptooth who bit his leg did not leave a scratch) <_<
Also Bron did not come across as the Great herd leader. He left some of his herd behind, the rest of the herd to whom he meant to introduce Littlefoot "back home". I don't know why anyone would be so inspired by him to adopt him as their leader (at least it doesn't look like he was struggling to become a herd leader), but the movie doesn't show much reason and leadership on his part.
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It sounds to me like Bron didn't care enough to even try to find Littlefoot after he had a herd. Maybe he just liked the power too much or maybe he didn't want to have to take care of Littlefoot when he was younger.
I suppose Bron could've become a herd leader very easily. I would suspect that having all of those children attracted females who would naturally want to take care of them. Naturally, Bron would have taken over as leader because the male is typically the more dominant gender of the species. After than, I would assume that if another male or female wanted to join the herd that they would have to talk to Bron if they wanted to join, seeing as he is the leader in a group of females because he is male and originally had all of the children. I remember him saying that most of the children got adopted by others in the herd. This would support my conclusion.
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Hehe, I don't know if this is the place to mention this, but cute avatar LBTL :^.^:.
Some seem to believe Bron was not diligent enough in his search for his son, nor is he the sharpest tool in the shed. I believe Bron simply wanted a reason to run out on his wife and son. Searching for more food seemed to be a valid excuse (meant as sarcasm). What would be the matter with his wife and son tagging along after Littlefoot hatched? Only a self-centered b****** would walk out on their family in a time of crisis :mad. This sounds just like, hmmm, Bron!
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He knew Littlefoot was in the great Valley ( i think) and chose to lead the herd of strangers because if he left them to find littlefoot, they most likely would have been attacked by sharpteeth or possibly starve to death.
If a bunch of full-grown, healthy longnecks are too helpless to defend themselves, feed themselves, or incapable of picking a new leader, then maybe the world is better off without them.
Right now, Bron is the vice-president of the "irresponsible, jerk dad" association. Darth Vader is the president. :P:
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I suppose Bron could've become a herd leader very easily. I would suspect that having all of those children attracted females who would naturally want to take care of them. Naturally, Bron would have taken over as leader because the male is typically the more dominant gender of the species. After than, I would assume that if another male or female wanted to join the herd that they would have to talk to Bron if they wanted to join, seeing as he is the leader in a group of females because he is male and originally had all of the children. I remember him saying that most of the children got adopted by others in the herd. This would support my conclusion.
Well noticed landbeforetimelover! :yes
I must admit I never took this into account, but it sounds quite plausible to me. You added an interesting point to one of the most frequently and thoroughly discussed LBT topics!
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If a bunch of full-grown, healthy longnecks are too helpless to defend themselves, feed themselves, or incapable of picking a new leader, then maybe the world is better off without them.
Well, have you ever noticed that in the movies whenever a sharptooth attacks almost ALL of the fully grown healthy dinosaurs there don't attempt to fight back most of the time?
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It does seem odd how they have so many do that. I can see some not doing that, but the vast majority not doing so seems rather odd. Though it gives the kids that are the focus something to do I guess.
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Maybe they don't know how to work together. :lol
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After than, I would assume that if another male or female wanted to join the herd that they would have to talk to Bron if they wanted to join, seeing as he is the leader in a group of females because he is male and originally had all of the children. I remember him saying that most of the children got adopted by others in the herd.
His being male and young need not make him the leader of the herd (with regard to the leader of Ali's herd in particular), but the rest is true. If Bron didn't want to lead anyone and the kids just followed him (not like he did anything to help them on his own accord <_<) the females might follow the kids and the males the females. This would leave Bron first in line :lol
There is some merit in the thought that those who don't want to lead are those who are most responsible with powers bestowed on them, but I still haven't seen any real leadership on Bron's part so far. Therefore I really like your theory Austin. Once a couple of males would follow the females who follow the kids who follow Bron others might join the herd without asking questions about the leader merely for the fact that there are so many other already.
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Post removed.
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I think some crocodilian and alligators are larger then the females, though it's been ages since I read anything about that subject.
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I don't know. I never really heard much on the size of crocs and gators, in comparison of the genders I mean.
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Make no mistake, Crocodiles and Alligator males are MUCH larger than the females. And that above quote about females holding dominance is NOT true unless you count ants and other insects, and even then, this is only so because most ants and bees and similar insects are female; the only males among them are the drones, which are still the most powerful kind... they're just terribly outnumbered. Most terrestrial vertebrate males are larger than the females; just look at cows, sheep, lions, tigers, goats, apes, deer, bears, rhinos, hippos, bison, elephants, cats, dogs, most birds, especially peafowl (you are not correct in your statement, save for a few like Bald eagles)...
In fact, whenever females are larger than males, it is called reverse sexual dimorphism, meaning that the standard kind of dimorphism is when the males are larger than the females, implying that it is more common.
It's actually rather extreme in crocodiles, in which males can be as long as seven meters, but it is very rare for a female to be more than four meters. Yes, certain fish, turtles, insects, arachnids, and some small lizards have the female being larger, but for most animals, this is not the case. Considering that crocodiles are related to dinosaurs and they are the largest living reptiles, I'd have to predict that male dinosaurs were a good deal larger, stronger, and more dangerous than the females.
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I shouldn't have said anything...
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I read on Bonobo society the famales are dominant over the males. I'm not sure how it goes on Orca society, besides the fact the the males remain in the pod they are born into.
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Here we go again... much of what we know about Bonobos comes from what we have observed about them when they are in captivity. In the wild, they have been known to act differently. The females are NOT necessarily above the males, it is simply more equal than with the VERY patriarchal chimpanzees. Bonobos are one of those animals which liberals like to use to try and justify their radical social ideas. Bonobo females have been known to rape infants of their own kind in captivity, too. They're not a species worth emulating.
There are fewer than 100,000 of these apes left in the world, so we cannot claim that they have been evolutionarily successful; the more patriarchal apes (chimps, gorillas, humans) are far more successful and have spread far more. Furthermore, Bonobos in the wild act far differently than they do in captivity, so in reality, the whole notion of a sex-obsessed ape (that is what the bonobos are claimed to be) may simply be the result of human mistreatment from captivity, not their own nature.
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I found something about sexual dimorphism. Here's what it states:
In many species, including most mammals, the male is larger than the female. In others, such as most insects, spiders, birds, reptiles and amphibians, many fish, and certain mammals such as the spotted hyena, the female is larger than the male.
And about reverse sexual dimorphism:
In some birds (most of which are waders such as the phalaropes and painted snipes), females have brighter colors than males. As this is the opposite of the usual sexual dichromatism, it is termed reverse sexual dimorphism.
This was taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism)
Yet another place states this:
In most cases when size differences exist between the male and female of a species, it is the male that is the larger of the two sexes. But in a few species, such as birds of prey and owls, it is the female is the larger of the sexes and such a size difference is referred to as reverse sexual dimorphism.
This was taken from: http://animals.about.com/od/zoology12/f/sexualdimorphis.htm (http://animals.about.com/od/zoology12/f/sexualdimorphis.htm)
Okay so...now I'm confused. ^^;