The Gang of Five
Beyond the Mysterious Beyond => Hobbies and Recreation => Computer and Electronics => Topic started by: Mumbling on September 24, 2010, 02:45:30 PM
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Hey all :)
I never use the computer from which I'm typing this message right now. But my brothers do and of lately they have been complaining that if keeps on randomly shutting itself off without giving a warning. My parents have thought of buying a new computer (Which would be profitable for me because I would get this faster one), but instead I offered to help them.
The computer looks fine from both software and hardware for as far as I can see. I wonder if any one here has a hardware checking program/device that they could share with me? I want to know if perhaps there is just a broken stick of RAM or something else that could easily be fixed or taken out. I'd like to try and fix it, if at all possible.
I've already reinstalled windows XP on this computer (after formatting it of course), just to see if that was the cause, but it turned out it was not the cause since it's still giving many issues.
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If I have tried to fix it and it's still broken I would like your opinion on the computer that might replace this one. My brothers mainly use this computer for browsing the web, but also for playing videogames, for example Team Fortress 2 or Left for Dead 2. Would the following specs be okay?
HP Pavilion p6550 (nl) for 580 euros.
Processor Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 3,06 GHz
RAM 4096 MB
videocard - 3D-chip ATI Radeon HD 5450
HD: 1TB with 7200 rpm
With Windows 7 Home Premium.
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Hard to tell what's going on, but it sounds like an hardware issue for me. When does it happen, and what happens exactly? Does it shut off (like pressing the power button) or does it freeze, Bluescreen?
One thing you should check are the temperatures. Maybe the computer needs some cleaning (from dust, hairs etc.). Check if all fans are running, even in idle and at full load. You can use Everest (http://www.lavalys.com/) or HWMonitor (http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/hwmonitor.html) to do this.
Check if in the Event Viewer (http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-vista/Open-Event-Viewer) are critical events logged at the time when the computer have shutted itself off.
EDIT:
I should also read the rest of your message next time. :smile
Yes, the specifications are looking okay. But make sure the OS is a 64 Bit one, to have all the installed 4 GBytes of RAM (and for later upgrades).
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Yep, it's an 64 bit one.
I just did a memory test run and it crashed when it was testing the RAM somewhere.. So I'm thinking it might either be that or something random that made it crash. I mean crash as in power off, no blue screen, no nothing.
I'll take one of the RAM sticks out tomorrow, use one of the two programs you recommended and see if I can find something odd/unusual, hoping the problem might be fixed by just taking one of the 2 ram sticks out.
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I mean crash as in power off, no blue screen, no nothing.
This doesn't sound good. Someone who is familiar with it should check the PSU immediatly.
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Not sure how much it'll help but try looking at the logs the computer keeps on events that occur on the computer. Should be in Event Viewer. There's some different categories. It might help shed some light on the situation, but probably won't reveal exactly what's wrong. Still it might give some clues.
Another thing you can try is cleaning the computer itself. When was the last time someone opened it up and cleaned out the dust? Dust can cause a lot of problems. The old XP computer wouldn't even turn on one day because of all the dust that was in it, and it hadn't been cleaned in years.
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^ Not sure when the last time was, but I'll clean it out today, just in case.
What's PSU Machine Slave?
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PSU = Power Supply Unit, it looks like that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ATX-Netzteil.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ATX-Netzteil.jpg)
EDIT:
I'm worried that the PSU might have a defect or something. If a computer just gets too hot, it doesn't shut off without warning. There should either a normal freeze, bluescreen or an acustic warning sound from the case. If I'm right and the PSU gets broken someday it could take some other components with it. In the worst case the PSU just goes "Boom" (exaggerated). I hope I'm wrong, but it should be checked.
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Alrighty. I'll look into that.
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How much Watts is the PSU, exactly? It's possible that it may not have enough Watts to support the rig's specs. 400W is usually enough. :p
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^That would be weird since this is a standard computer. We did not add any extra parts in it and I doubt a manufacturer gives us the wrong power supply.. But I'll look at it though.
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If a computer just gets too hot, it doesn't shut off without warning.
I don't know where you're getting your information, but yes it does. If a computer's CPU overheats, it will shut down to prevent permanent damage. I'd check the CPU fan to see if it's actually running. If it is I'd download a program to monitor the CPU temperature. It could also be the PSU, but in my experience if a computer is just turning off it's usually the CPU. Ram would definitely cause either a blue screen or a freeze. It would never result in the PC just turning itself off without warning. How old is the current computer and who makes it? I know Compaq had some really cheap crap thermal paste about 6-7 years ago so you might just need to apply some new stuff to it. What type of processor do you have? If it's an AMD, they run a lot hotter than Intel so you need decent thermal paste and a good fan.
As to the computer you mentioned in your original post, yeah it should be able to play most games out there but it's a total ripoff for the price. Go with this machine:
http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping.../HPE410t_series (http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/computer_can_series.do?storeName=computer_store&category=desktops&a1=Category&v1=High+performance&series_name=HPE410t_series&jumpid=in_R329_prodexp/hhoslp/psg/desktops/High_performance/HPE410t_series)
It has 6gb of memory standard and has an i5 processor (better than the core2 series). It tops off at around 540 euros so you still have a bit more you can spend for a better graphics card (you can get a better one by customizing it) and/or more ram.
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The computer is about 2 or 3 years old (I'm uncertain). I'll check which processor it has etc later today.
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If a computer just gets too hot, it doesn't shut off without warning.
I don't know where you're getting your information, but yes it does. If a computer's CPU overheats, it will shut down to prevent permanent damage.
That's what I have experienced. Hm, maybe the warning is disabled in the BIOS. That should be checked. And I agree, a defective (or incompatible) RAM would cause bluescreens or freezings.
You can find out everything about your computer using the program Everest, I have mentioned above. It also shows you the temperatures, fans etc.
http://www.lavalys.com/ (http://www.lavalys.com/)
http://www.cpuid.com/ (http://www.cpuid.com/)
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If it crashed on a RAM test its a good hint there's something fishy with your RAM. Bad sector or something?
And yes, if a computer is too hot, it will turn itself off.
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maybe the warning is disabled in the BIOS
There's rarely a warning unless the overheating problem isn't very severe. 99% of the time the computer will just turn off. I suspect either your CPU or your motherboard, but since it's only 2-3 years old unless it's a Gateway or an eMachines, I tend to think it's a heat issue. Either the CPU fan has died or the thermal paste has thinned. Or maybe the processor is just shot. It could always be the PSU as well, but I doubt it.
And Machine Slave...I suggest you refrain from just repeating what you hear online unless you're able to verify it with your own experiences. Only give advice if you really know what you're talking about. Computers aren't like they used to be. They're very diverse and complex. Just because your machine does something doesn't mean it's the norm or that another computer will act remotely like it in the same situation. My experience comes not only from the ~200 computers that I personally own, but also from seeing 6-12 client computers every day and dealing with 6-12 different people's problems.
As for Everest, the program is more complicated then it needs to be for your particular issue. Go download this:
http://www.afterdawn.com/software/system_t...n/core_temp.cfm (http://www.afterdawn.com/software/system_tools/system_information/core_temp.cfm)
Also I was going to mention this earlier, but it's possible that the computer is blue screening but just restarting. The computer is set by default to restart if it encounters a blue screen. The blue screen will likely flash for a fraction of a second before the computer restarts. But since you're saying that it's actually turning OFF and not restarting, I tend to believe that there is no blue screen and that your problem is definitely related to heat. If you'd like to check, follow these steps (for windows Vista):
1. Right click on "computer" (found under the start menu) and go to "properties"
2. Over on the left side of the screen there will be an option that says "advanced system settings." Click it.
3. Click on the "settings" button under "startup and recovery"
4. Under "system failure" uncheck "automatically restart"
5. Click "Ok" and "Ok" on the two open windows and close the "system" window.
If you follow these steps and you get a blue screen, let me know. If you do then this may be another issue. But as I said, since it's shutting down and not restarting, I'm pretty sure it's a heat issue.
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It's not restarting at all Austin. It just dies completely, as if you pulled out the plug.
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It's not restarting at all Austin. It just dies completely, as if you pulled out the plug.
Well then it's almost definitely a heat issue. Download and run the program I linked to as it's easy as pie to understand. If the CPU's heat level spikes after starting up, there's likely a problem. Make sure nothing big is running when you run the program though.
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And Machine Slave...I suggest you refrain from just repeating what you hear online unless you're able to verify it with your own experiences. Only give advice if you really know what you're talking about. Computers aren't like they used to be. They're very diverse and complex. Just because your machine does something doesn't mean it's the norm or that another computer will act remotely like it in the same situation. My experience comes not only from the ~200 computers that I personally own, but also from seeing 6-12 client computers every day and dealing with 6-12 different people's problems.
Well, I might not have being dealing with such amount of computers like you did, but I'm trying to help when I think I can. And, yes, you're right, a computer can shut off without any warning if the CPU is getting too hot. But every computer which is at least 4 or 5 years old has an option in the BIOS to set up a warning sound before this happens. The most computers I have encountered didn't have this option enabled.
Anyway... it doesn't matter for me who is right or wrong. There is an issue that should be solved before this issue can cause more damage than necessary.
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Indeed. Thanks both of you for helping.
I opened up the computer yesterday. It was not dusty at all, since it had been brought to the store about 2 months ago and they cleaned it out. I took away some small pieces of dust, but nothing really too bad.
There was only one RAM stick, so I could not take it out to test it. I checked if the fans were all working when they were running, and yes they were. I felt if anything was overheating with my hand, but I don't think so. Today I'll run Austin's program and see what's going on.
By the way, also the PSU's fan was running, and it was like 350 watt if I remember correctly.
It's an Asus computer, and the front on the case says 'Spire' (not aspire, I think) never heard of that before, but meh.
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Hmm, Core Temp only shows the temperature of the CPU and no other sensors (just downloaded and tested). HWMonitor (http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/hwmonitor.html) shows all sensors and the running speed of the fans. And this the most interesting for me.
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Both results right here. There seems nothing odd with it:
This is when there's just Firefox running in the background (1 tab open) and paint. The only odd thing is the fan that is 99%, though I have no idea what that means
(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll44/gofmumbling/thingy2.jpg)
(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll44/gofmumbling/thingy.jpg)
And sometimes in the second program I see this, just for 1 frame:
(http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll44/gofmumbling/question.jpg)
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The weird values at TEMPIN2, FANIN1 and the percentages seem to be reading errors. You can ignore that. My system shows at one of sensors a temperature of >100 ?C, which is, of course, wrong. The reason is that the programmer can't know every specifications of all the used sensor chips. So don't worry here.
Paint and Firefox are not really known for CPU usage. Can you start a game for a few minutes while this program is running? After this the value at the Max column will be very interesting, to see if there is really a thermal issue or not.
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Actually later I tested it while running one of my brother's games (team fortress 2) and the results were barely different.
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Okay. Let's run an old fashioned overheating test. I hate diagnostic programs anyway and rarely use them. Turn the computer off and let it sit there for at least 30 minutes. Get a stopwatch and turn the sucker on. Note the time when it turns off and record it in a notebook. Let it sit again and do the test again. If there's any consistency at all in how long it takes the computer to turn off, it's most definitely an overheating problem. For example, if it's 32 minutes on the first test, 29 minutes on the second test, 33 minutes on the third test, etc. If the times are off by a significant amount then it's most likely not an overheating issue. Just make sure you let the thing cool off for at least 30 minutes between each test.
If it's not an overheating issue, the next thing you should look at should be your PSU. Unfortunately testing the PSU can be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. You'll have to use software. If it's not an overheating issue, you'll most likey have to take it in. If you didn't live so far away I'd say ship it to me, but that will be a minimum of $50 to ship it both ways (probably more if you want shipping insurance), and potentially expensive since the problem could lie with your motherboard (in which case it might be better to junk it rather than pay $100 or more for a new motherboard. Adding to the issues, if it's a bad PSU I'll have to replace it with an American one which probably wouldn't work where you live. :p
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^I would do that, but if there are no programs running (or little at all) it won't crash. My brother has had it up for hours when he doesn't do anything... Yet if he plays one of his game for an hour or so it always crashes eventually.
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^Well that IS interesting information. I wish you would have specified this earlier. Do you have a separate graphics card? If so, remove it and run the game. It will perform like crap with integrated graphics but if it doesn't crash then it's likely the graphics card overheating. Now you said that the temps don't vary much when you're playing the game compared to when it's just sitting there?
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Yeah the temps dont differ much, only a by a couple of degrees. And yes, we have an NVidia GeForce something. What would I have to take out ? (I don't know where the video card is in a computer)
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Interesting, indeed. All the time we have suspected the CPU and the PSU, but it could be the graphics card that just overheats and shutting off the computer.
I don't know how familiar you are with this stuff. If you are unsure, ask someone for help. I hope my little guide here helps though...
You can find the graphics card if you follow where the cable which is connecting the computer with the monitor is being connected. Then open the case, look on which card the cable is plugged in... and you have found the graphics card. Remove the cable, remove the screw that holds the card in place. Before you remove the card, please touch a radiator first, to be sure to, uh... unload the static electricity charge from your body. Unless a simple touch can destroy the hardware. If there is still a cable connected to the card which goes to the PSU, remove it. Now, remove the card carefully and place it at a safe place where no electricity can harm it (wooden table...).
Take the other graphics card, which should be of the same slot type (PCIe 2.0 or AGP) and plug it into the same slot where the other card has been in. Make sure that it is plugged in steady (I hope that is the right word). Secure the card with the screw, plug in the 6 pin cable, if the card has a slot for it, close the case and connect it with the monitor. When the computer is booting, Windows wants to install the drivers to the card.
If the graphics card is the problem there are ways to get around it. There are so-called Slot Fans that can be placed near the graphics card to support the heat removal.
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***BEFORE YOU BEGIN***
Make sure and ground yourself. You can easily do this by touching the outside of the computer case (on the metal, not the plastic). Every time you move your feet, ground yourself. Static electricity builds up when you walk across the carpet and/or rub against something. This static electricity can travel through your body to the electronic component and kill it (known as ESD or Electrostatic Discharge). Make sure and ground yourself before touching the graphics card. Also, make sure to set the card down on a smooth, flat surface close to the computer so you can ground yourself again before putting it back in.
You're going to need a screwdriver for the case and the cover to the graphics card. The graphics card is the thing that you're plugging your monitor into (it makes more sense when you're actually looking inside the machine. It's really easy to tell which is the graphics card when you're looking at it). There is a locking mechanism underneath the graphics card towards the end of it (closer to the inside of the case). Just remove the cover to the card, unlock it, and pull it straight upwards. It should pop right out. DO NOT FORCE IT. Sometimes a bit of force is required to pull the card from the slot but if it appears stuck, push it back in and try again.
After you've removed the graphics card, put the computer back together and plug everything back in (the monitor goes into the onboard graphics which is usually a standard VGA plug (blue in color)). Run the thing and play some games. You might have to lower the settings on the games to make them actually playable. If it doesn't crash, then it's the graphics card. Get me more specifics about your computer and I'll recommend a new graphics card for you.
If the graphics card is the problem there are ways to get around it.
If a graphics card is overheating, you should replace it rather than put fans around it and hope for the best. If it's overheating, this indicates a problem and it should be replaced.
Did you just recently install this graphics card? If so, the problem could be that your PSU isn't powerful enough to support it.
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Well, it would be a low cost solution for a temporary time if there is not the money for buying a new card. I should have mention that. Sorry.
@Mumbling:
Follow landbeforetimelover's guide. It's better explained.
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Thanks both of you, i know which one it is now and I'll try to follow lbtl's instructions sometime this week. Sadly enough school has started again so it will take some time before I can work on it. Is the standard graphic card already in the computer? Where can I put the graphic card when i take it out, just on a piece of paper or something? :)
I knew about the electrical discharge, but thanks for warning me again.
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Just put it on an flat insulating surface where you know it is safe from anything that could harm it (like water, dirt...). Putting it into an anti-static bag would be recommendable, though.
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Is the standard graphic card already in the computer? Where can I put the graphic card when i take it out, just on a piece of paper or something?
Most computers come with integrated graphics standard and don't come with a graphics card, but some do. And a antistatic bag is great if you intend to store the card, but hopefully you'll be taking it out and replacing it quickly so if you just set it up and out of the way on a smooth clean surface it should be fine.
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I took it out, sadly with no good result. We ended up buying a new computer, which is already more powerful than this old one. My dad likes it too (which is a miracle) because it's very silent.
We replaced it since it would crash after just a couple of minutes, even when just browsing the web or writing a document. I took the old computer apart and took several useful parts out of it. Right now I have upgraded my own computer's ram with 2GB.. If it starts crashing, i know RAM was the issue ;) If it does not, well... then I have a nice, quicker computer.. Anything better than my 512 mb :p
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^That's really too bad. Your old one was more than powerful enough for just about anyone. It was probably the PSU or processor; both of which could have been replaced for about $100. For the regular user, a Core2Duo and a Core i7 aren't going to be much different if they're both running properly even though one is about three times as expensive as the other.
As for your old P4, nothing is going to help that thing. It's just too old. You really should convince your parents to get the Core2Duo fixed.
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I love my computer more than I ever liked that one downstairs, Austin. My P4 is a diamond. :D
Thanks for helping me out, but this case is done :)