Bowling for Columbine

[Petrie]

I debated placing this in After Midnight, but it's definitely a film documentary so it belongs here regardless what it's about.

My nice burrow-mate gave me a copy of Bowling for Columbine, the "gun documentary" by Michael Moore.  I know its particularly one-sided "guns are bad, always will be bad" point of view, and they do have a point--guns are made to do one thing--take away life.

The really odd feeling is the point as to where America is all about living in fear.  We lock our doors, we watch news that gives us death/murder/crime information, we freaked out over Y2K...that's all very much true.  Do we fear so much we need guns?  Should we be more worried that anyone can go and purchase a gun from Wal-Mart?  Certainly yes, because it seems, that those that buy guns in this country buy them for protection, but many would buy them to kill others, purposely nonetheless.  I guess the portion when he goes to Canada and nobody locks their doors, was odd...possibly planned for all I know because I can't see people just leaving doors unlocked like that.  :blink:

Anyone else watch this and get the same feeling?

[Malte279]

I watched the movie and I sure had different emotions about it. For (get this) where I spend my students exchange time in America nobody locked their doors. They didn't even lock their cars, but everyone had a gun.
Michael Moore must be handled with care, as though he usually doesn't change facts (which would result in an army of attornys going right at him) he often presents them in ways that create an image different from reality. However he has a good point in many of the things he writes (I recommend everyone to read the chapter "Why doesn't GM sell crack?" in his book "Downsize this!").
As for the gun issue he mainly blames the problems on the ways the medias scare the people with permanent alarming news most of which are pretty nonsensical. The central thesis of Bowling for Columbine did sound quite plausible to me.

[WeirdRaptor]

Well, the gun was invented as a means to outdo some enemy. And then it was incorperated into wars and hunting very commonly after that. I find nothing wrong with guns, as long as they're not misused.
Target practice with (of course) paper targets is actually a quite a fun game to play. And I am no vegetarian, and do go hunting on deer hunting season.

I also keep a gun, because its the crazy people who shoot people that we're always hearing about that I want to be able to defend myself against if there's ever a break-in at my humble abode. And these things do happen.

I'm not really fond of Michael Moore. He's a liar, through and through.

[Malte279]

How many of his books did you read?

[Inl?-rah]

Actually, my brother went to Germany for about a year recently, and talked with people about crime in other countries.  America has, by far, the highest rate of crime, for virtually everything.

Apparently the thing about communities in Canada not locking their doors is true--he said that anyone can just walk up to someone's door, open it, and the person inside will just give a friendly "Hello!"  Amazing.

In Germany, too, the crime is much less.  I took a trip there with my father this past summer, for a week, and at night I could walk the streets of Heidelberg without a single fear of being a victim.  Also, everybody seemed well-mannered, minding their own routines and not sticking their noses in other people's business.  I really hate the way some people are in this country.  Just plain jerks.

I tell you, it's like another world over there, and it's awesome because of it.  If I didn't love America's conveniences so much, I'd go live in Germany.  Who knows, maybe I will anyway.

[Petrie]

WR, I don't mind guns for the sake of protection.  They're doing no harm sitting in a house, and if you do use it, you're using it on one that would harm you first.  I see nothing wrong with that so long as the gun remains where it is.

Hunting, I guess is justified....I don't hunt and never will because I just can't end a life...even that of an animal.  If you have to keep down populations for the sake of everything around them, I'd rather save the ecosystem first.

I admit, I haven't read any of Moore's stuff besides that film...that was my first introduction to him, and I know he gives a somewhat one-sided view of the practical use of guns.

Inle, I'd go to another country just to get away from America for a while.  Plus, last night I went and talked with a Canadian friend I know and posed that portion to him about unlocked doors...he said it's about half true...in downtown cities you probably wouldn't find unlocked doors.  Around here, I see no unlocked doors...every car door is locked, our dorm rooms are locked when we're not in them, houses are locked, many around my parent's home have security systems (some houses in that area can easily go over $200,000  :blink: ).

[Nick22]

I have never seen any of Moore's films and I have no wish to see them. As an American, I can say there are places were the doors are unlocked. Take my hometown of Port Washington, for example. Nobody locks thier doors. Of course, in a small community, everybody knows everyone,  so there's no need to lock the doors. As for guns, they should be handled carefully. Hunting is OK, I have no problem with that. As for the crime rate, the US is much larger than Germany or Canada in population, thusly there's more sickos in our country. Plus  you add in a culture where guns are available to anybody, and you've got trouble.
Nick

[Malte279]

I certainly don't say that whatever Moore says or writes is right. I try to inform myself about both points of view, the pros and cons, of whatever I read or write. In case of Michael Moore there are certainly cases where things are presented in ways that create an image different from my understanding of reality.
As I said, nobody looked their doors in the town where I was during my students exchange, while everybody certainly does here where I live (the house doors over here don't even need to be looked up to make a key necessare to get in. There are no doorhandels at the house doors here that would allow you to open the doors without a key).
Still not everything Moore writes is nonsense, and if he was as strong a liar as Drew writes (I still don't know how many of his books you've read to proove your claim) you can be quite sure that the Republicans would pursue him much stronger. Nothing would've boosted Bush's chances more prior to the election than outright lies or false facts in the movie Fahrenheit 9/11. None of Moore's falsifications however lead as direct to harm as Mr. Bushs lie about WMDs.

Even with a lower crime rate Germany is definitely not a paradise. Our social security systems are likely to collapse within the next years and decades. A main reason for this is, that soon Germany's society will be overaged. To few kids are born while more and more people reach their retirement age. Less and less people have to care for more and more. The educational system in Germany is very poor, and in an international comparison of 30 countries Germany makes a rank somewhere around 20. There is also racism and extremism to be found in Germany. As nobody bothered to make it easy for workers from foreign countries to integrate into our society, there are now two paralell societies in Germany either of which is suspicious about the other.
Many people here where I live are superficial, and people who do not "swim with the stream" are often regarded with great suspicion.
I don't want to talk Germany worse than it is, but as one often gets more positive an impression than facts would justify if one spends just a limited time at a place (the America I saw during the five month I spend in Red Lake Falls was a kind of Utopia to me) I just wanted to point out the other side.

[Threehorn]

too much to read I am lost...  :blink:  :blink:

-Threehorn

[Nick22]

America isn't Utopia, either. The Republicans pursued Moore a great deal, they hate his guts. Of course, I've never seen any of his films or read his books, so I can't post from personal experience. Out Social Security system will soon start to run a defecit, it's expected to run out of money by 2041, when I'm 58. Either taxes will have to be raised or Benefits are going to be cut, probably both. I know the Chancellor is in trouble over his benefit cuts in Germany's SS programs.
Nick

[WeirdRaptor]

Yes, Moore is very one-sided.

Malte, you'd do better just looking up your information from books written by professionals who deal with the topic regularly.

Thanks, Arvens.

[Malte279]

If I want to know about a book it seems better to read the book first and then the critics. Whatever else one can say about him, SOME of the stuff he writes is really reasonable.

[WeirdRaptor]

Some of it, but I prefer a more two-sided argument.

If I wrote something like that, I'd at least be more understanding of the other side of the story. Moore seems to think that there is only one side to a coin.

[Petrie]

I don't know if there really is a two-sided argument when it comes to guns--what good can come from a gun?  :unsure:  Like I said, guns are made to do one thing--to kill.

[Nick22]

Much like cigarettes are poisonous, guns are designed to maim and injure. No argument there.
Nick

[Malte279]

Some of it, but I prefer a more two-sided argument.

But if one wants to have a two sided argument about a book, then it would be useful to read the book (which might present only one side) and then the critics (which again might present only the other side). If indeed an argument shall be two-sided, either side of it's own won't do.

[Petrie]

^ *applauds*  Many books do not contain two sided arguments.  You will have to read what the critics think about it and why they feel the content is inaccurate; it's left up to you to decide what is right and what isn't.

[Nick22]

Most books contain only the author's views, rarely is another view given credence. It's  only natural to laud the points that favor your view and ignore those that don't.
Nick

[Daddytops2009]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIXjOLKhVkw[/youtube]

[ADFan185]

YouTube link isn't working fix it.