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Aliens

Chomper98

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Hello, I noticed the paranormal encounters page, and decided to make an aliens page, about abduction, sightings, or theories, any one opinion or account is accepted.


jansenov

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The possibility of existence of intelligent extraterrestrial life? I believe in such a possibility. Abductions, sightings? Nope. There's no evidence for this.


Chomper98

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Quote from: jansenov,Aug 13 2012 on  05:35 PM
The possibility of existence of intelligent extraterrestrial life? I believe in such a possibility. Abductions, sightings? Nope. There's no evidence for this.
I believe in it too, as a child I was terrified though, I had nightmares of aliens walking into my house, my dog barking, then suddenly, it goes quiet, and from my room, a shadow appears, then it stops. Man those dreams were scary, but slowly, that fear turned to interest, and that interest heightened when I saw the mockumentary(a film about non-existent life presented in a documentary's form) Alien Planet, I bought the book about 2 months ago, ans I love it. But I also hope that when aliens do come here, they come in peace(no pun intended).  :lol


Malte279

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^ Pretty much what Jansenov said. If we assume for the universe to be infinite that would make it a rather large place indeed. In spite of the many difficulties (it really is a HUGE coincidence that the combination of favorable circumstances makes life on the earth possible) I would be surprised if in a place as large as infinity there would be no other places to permit life. We know so little about the universe that perhaps we cannot see possibilities for life under circumstances in which no life as we have seen on earth so far would be possible.  
Life however can also be a rather temporary thing. Who knows if there will still be any life on earth in a million years. In the time frame of the universe a million years is but the blink of an eye. Who can tell if perhaps there used to be life in some places or if perhaps there will be though there may be none for the time being?
As for any actual reports about contact with alien life in recent times (the number of such reports exploded since it became fashionable in the late 1940s) I am extremely sceptic. Thing is that the distances in the universe are so huge that even if we found a way to travel with the speed of light it would take several life times to reach even some relatively close systems within our galaxy. Add the tricky physics about the different passage of time at so high speeds and things get even more complex. Unless some totally different means of transportation were found (in that respect there is a lot of theorizing about the so called "wormholes") I'm afraid that there is practically no chance for us to make contact with an alien lifeform (presuming that indeed it does exist and does so in our times).


Blais_13

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Universe is a pretty big place,so I think it has a big chance that life exist in other planets too,but I don't think that aliens are observing us.




What i always found odd with the eccounters is that the aliens are always hummanoid,always have the same senses as a human,and always have a nearly human face.I think aliens would be much more diferent from us in a lot of ways,for example always changing shape,or ability to see more dimensions,and such things.That would be much more interesting than the usually 'I saw a little grey human.."stuff,which I think only a not to creative way to get quick fame.By the way there are theorys that aliens created the humans,and the ancient gods were aliens,but I never believed in it.In the old times unknown things were done by spirits and gods,nowdays they are done by aliens,so we can explain them,who cares if it's true or not.


EggStealerGirl

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You mean, these aliens?


ROFL, kidding! :DD

Well, to quote Lampy from the Brave Little Toaster, "it's a possibility."


Chomper98

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Has anyone seen that cool movie called alien planet? It's presented like a documentary but is fiction, with some pretty cool creatures, I'll give you some examples:




These are truly alien looking creatures, no jaws, and no, those holes in their heads are not eyes, their nostrils, they use echo-location to either evade or track down prey. The one in the bottom is larger then even the biggest dinosaur in terms of mass, 5 stories, but not sure about total length, as Diplodocus, Mamenchisaurus, and Supersaurus all reached great lengths like that. Any alien can be really discussed, not just intelligent life, Bio-Raptors, Martians, anything really. The ones pictured are just my favorites from the alien planet documentary, which is based on the book Expedition. It's really cool, though I would only recommend it to people 11 or over, because of some, scary scenes, you'll know what I'm talking about if you watch it.


jansenov

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^Compared to some bizzare entities one could encounter in works of science fiction, those look and behave pretty ordinary.

There are two schools of thought on the nature of aliens. The first assumes, since laws of physics apply to the entire observable universe (after decades of observation we can be confident in this), that for each problem there must be a solution that is vastly simpler than all other solutions for that problem. Colloquially, it means that certain designs will be vastly more prevalent than others. Vastly can easily mean such a high number that a design might never appear spontaneously during the universe's entire existence.  A prominent representative of this school would be Marvin Minsky. In his paper (highly recommended reading)Communication with Alien Intelligence he uses artihmetics as an example of a number system for which no alternatives could be devised, because they either don't exist or are so complex that nobody figured out one yet. He also runs a technical experiment that shows that before a complex machine is devised for solving a problem (a B-machine), a simple machine that solves the same problem (an A-machine), will appear many times, again and again. So it is much more likely that the A-machine will be used, and nobody will bother searching for the B-machine.

He calls this the "sparseness principle". Using the sparsness principle, and what we know about chemistry and astrochemistry, we may claim, in decreasing order of certainity, that life requires an external source of energy (this can be safely considered to be completely certain; an alternative can't be imagined under the known laws of the universe),
that it requires catalysts (also almost completely certain, but based on observations; in principle, there could be an alternative solution that still obeys the laws of the universe, but it is not likely),
that it needs liquid medium,
that it must be carbon-based,
that the liquid medium will be water,
that it will of consist of large repetitive structures (nucleic acids, proteins, lipids, large carbohydrates) made out of a few different simple elements (nucleotids, amino-acids, fatty acids, alcohols, simple carbohydrates),
that it propagates through a self-replicating machine (either its own or someone elses),
that the machine must have three basic parts: the blueprint (DNA), the replicator (RNA, proteins) and a membrane that protects the blueprint and replicator (lipids)... And so on. The ultimate result of using the sparseness principle would be that the thought processes of an intelligent alien must be similar to the processes of a human, at least on a very basic level, and so communication will be possible, provided that the parties want to communicate.

The other school assumes that the sparseness principle is false, that there are many solutions to problems, and it ultimately follows that aliens must be so different from us that communication, or understanding at any level, will be impossible. Prominent representatives of this school would be Stanislaw Lem, with his novel Solaris and the Strugatsky brothers, with their novel Roadside Picnic.


Chomper98

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Quote from: jansenov,Aug 14 2012 on  08:07 PM
^Compared to some bizzare entities one could encounter in works of science fiction, those look and behave pretty ordinary.

There are two schools of thought on the nature of aliens. The first assumes, since laws of physics apply to the entire observable universe (after decades of observation we can be confident in this), that for each problem there must be a solution that is vastly simpler than all other solutions for that problem. Colloquially, it means that certain designs will be vastly more prevalent than others. Vastly can easily mean such a high number that a design might never appear spontaneously during the universe's entire existence.  A prominent representative of this school would be Marvin Minsky. In his paper (highly recommended reading)Communication with Alien Intelligence he uses artihmetics as an example of a number system for which no alternatives could be devised, because they either don't exist or are so complex that nobody figured out one yet. He also runs a technical experiment that shows that before a complex machine is devised for solving a problem (a B-machine), a simple machine that solves the same problem (an A-machine), will appear many times, again and again. So it is much more likely that the A-machine will be used, and nobody will bother searching for the B-machine.

He calls this the "sparseness principle". Using the sparsness principle, and what we know about chemistry and astrochemistry, we may claim, in decreasing order of certainity, that life requires an external source of energy (this can be safely considered to be completely certain; an alternative can't be imagined under the known laws of the universe),
that it requires catalysts (also almost completely certain, but based on observations; in principle, there could be an alternative solution that still obeys the laws of the universe, but it is not likely),
that it needs liquid medium,
that it must be carbon-based,
that the liquid medium will be water,
that it will of consist of large repetitive structures (nucleic acids, proteins, lipids, large carbohydrates) made out of a few different simple elements (nucleotids, amino-acids, fatty acids, alcohols, simple carbohydrates),
that it propagates through a self-replicating machine (either its own or someone elses),
that the machine must have three basic parts: the blueprint (DNA), the replicator (RNA, proteins) and a membrane that protects the blueprint and replicator (lipids)... And so on. The ultimate result of using the sparseness principle would be that the thought processes of an intelligent alien must be similar to the processes of a human, at least on a very basic level, and so communication will be possible, provided that the parties want to communicate.

The other school assumes that the sparseness principle is false, that there are many solutions to problems, and it ultimately follows that aliens must be so different from us that communication, or understanding at any level, will be impossible. Prominent representatives of this school would be Stanislaw Lem, with his novel Solaris and the Strugatsky brothers, with their novel Roadside Picnic.
I heard Stephen Hawking(21st century's einstein) saying that likely, most life is very similar in terms of locomotion, feeding, or reproducing, and I also heard that alien life may seem so alien(no pun intended) yet is similar, like how most mammal carnivores share a very similar appearance, a lion and a fox are similar in appearance, just details may be a little different. I personally believe that aliens would actually appear similar depending on what their based on, and it seems carbon is very numerous, especially in nebulas, and so it seems that much of the hypothetical alien species are carbon based, yet if it is based on something else, it could appear vastly different. Infact, as far as terrestrial life goes, I mean truly terrestrial, they don't fly often, there are 4 body plans, quadrupedal with thin legs, quadrupedal with thick legs, bipedal with tails, and bipedal with no tails. These are generalized land life forms, and if you don't believe me, look up most animal species land species, and they all follow one of those forms. Same could be said for sea life, which use fins, tentacles, or in other worlds, or gas, again, details could be different, but its all very similar in the end. Air animals either flap, glide, or(again a possibility in some aliens, gas). Life often follows similar paths, though differences in details is again likely.


jansenov

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So, you and Hawking belong to the first school. Me too. Life on Earth seems to prove the sparseness principle in its designs. Some designs are used over and over. This goes so far that groups as different as apes, dolphins and elephants have paralelly evolved the same types of neurons, that only apear in those groups.

But there are species that don't agree with this. For example, the magpie. Magpies display a high level of intellegence (they can recgonise their reflection in a mirror), yet they have quite a different brain architecture from the three groups of mammals mentioned above. Magpies "found" a different design, and this design isn't any more complex than the design of mammal brains, which could invalidate the sparseness principle. Yet, one may argue that magpies are very close to humans genetically, and it would require a radically different design, for example an intelligent fungus, to tear down the arguments of the first school.

Until some hard data (fortunately, we're making progress here; slowly, but surely) from outside Earth get in, we just can't now.


Ptyra

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In all of the cosmos, I say it is 100% stupid to say that Earth is the only planet with life. Not no way, not no how.
It's just hard to find, since the universe is so big.

Let's all join hands and sing the Universe song...may it be from Animaniacs or Eric Idle.


Chomper98

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I wonder what will happen when the human race discovers aliens. When I say discover, I mean if a sentient alien race makes itself known, or if we discover a planet with less advanced life, it will probably rock the world's boat, because it would shatter most's perception of humanity being so special, which it really isn't, and spread fear because people would fear alien invasion. Also, is light really the limit, because wouldn't an advanced species discover a way to travel faster, or even teleport?


Malte279

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We might also come to discover some day that there are far advanced species out there but who wouldn't want to get into contact with a species so focused on creating ever more advanced means of killing of itself and even taking a lot of pride in that sorry state. We take killing for a law of nature and strival for power as a very human thing. In countless science fiction stories we are also taking it almost for granted that the space must be a big battlefield. Perhaps there are other species who would think different about this.
Perhaps the fact that nobody ever tried to contact us is the best evidence for intelligent life in outer space we have ;)


Chomper98

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Quote from: Malte279,Aug 15 2012 on  03:09 PM
We might also come to discover some day that there are far advanced species out there but who wouldn't want to get into contact with a species so focused on creating ever more advanced means of killing of itself and even taking a lot of pride in that sorry state. We take killing for a law of nature and strival for power as a very human thing. In countless science fiction stories we are also taking it almost for granted that the space must be a big battlefield. Perhaps there are other species who would think different about this.
Perhaps the fact that nobody ever tried to contact us is the best evidence for intelligent life in outer space we have ;)
That last bit reminded me of Calvin and Hobbes, have you read that comic?


jansenov

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To Chomper98 and Malte:

The discovery of a "thing" far more advanced than us (more advanced in which sense?) would have profound implications for science, philosophy and religion, but it will have little effect on ordinary life, at least in the beginning. People will still eat, sleep, go to work etc.

A close encounter with the "thing" could be an entirely different matter. I'm afraid that it would be the most horrible experience ever. Imagine encountering something that is so different, something whose appearence and behaviour (if even those two categories could be applied to it) so offends, violates the most basic conceptions we have as humans and animals, as beings from Earth, like "war", "peace", "up", "2+2=4" (not just in a conscious, but in a biologically hardwired, subconscious sense), "pain", "life", "death", or "being",  that the only experiences we could derive from the encounter would be confusion, fear, trauma, or a seizure.

I think such an encounter would only reinforce our feeling of loneliness, living in a universe that won't fit into even our most open-minded images.

About travelling faster than light and teleporting. I'll just say that the more sophisticated experiments we conduct, the better they confirm the theory of relativity. Perhaps the theory of relativity is wrong, but don't bet on it.



jansenov

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Just to make sure, I don't think really that an encounter would be such a shocking experience. Actually, I have absolutely no idea how it be would like. I'm illustrating how hard it is for us to overcome our human bias when thinking about aliens, how limited is our set of experiences. I don't say that I overcame bias myself either. Aliens could be so weird that my imagination would be downright pathetic.


Malte279

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Quote
That last bit reminded me of Calvin and Hobbes, have you read that comic?
Yes indeed, I was thinking of that comic strip when quoting that line :yes
Sometimes Calvin and Hobbes comics make very good points.
I think that in spite of the fact that many (perhaps a majority) of people says that they believe extraterrestrial life to be possible or even likely I suppose the psychological effect would be immense if intelligent extraterrestrial live would be discovered. It would be the final straw to take away mankinds selfimage of being the central part of a higher plan. The effect on spiritual aspects which play an integral part in the lives of many would be difficult to predict. There is no reason for anyone to become an atheist because of the discovery of alien life, but it would perhaps be an incentive to reconsider parts of codes of faith in the world. I don't want to exaggerate, but perhaps it is religious faith that makes many people not give up hope when many scientific predictions announce major crisis (overpopulation, shortage of resources like oil and water, global warming, risk of nuclear war etc.). I don't know if a change of that would be beneficial. On the positive side a change there might allow for a higher degree of open mindedness in many respects and allow for more people to be ready to actually work to prevent or limit the effects of crisis that might otherwise be regarded with a possibly naive faith in a higher intervention that will allow for mankind to last no matter what. On the negative side the result might be a serious lack of hope and doomsday mood that would not be suited to solve any of the issues either. Finally (in case of a technologically far advanced allien species) mankind might end up thinking that they can and would want to solve our problems.
The reactions of mankind to a contact with an alien species could be almost as interesting as the species itself.


Chomper98

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I personally would probably react like this:  <_<  :o   :blink:  :unsure: and be praying to god they come in peace. If something like War of the Worlds happens, I would probably kill myself then get killed by aliens. If it is more friendly, like wanting to help us, I would be wary of course, should never trust strangers, and after they proved their friendly, I'd go about my daily life, then maybe try to meet one. Honestly though, I had a fear of aliens since I was little, and I don't know what I'd do.


pokeplayer984

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I do believe that life does exist on another planet somewhere out there in the vast reaches of space.  It just feels ridiculously impossible that we could be the only ones.  In fact, some scientists believe that existing life could be a lot closer than we think.  In fact, they believe it to be in our own solar system.  Can anyone guess where that is?

I'll give you a hint.  It's not Mars. ;)


Chomper98

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Quote from: pokeplayer984,Aug 15 2012 on  10:55 PM
I do believe that life does exist on another planet somewhere out there in the vast reaches of space.  It just feels ridiculously impossible that we could be the only ones.  In fact, some scientists believe that existing life could be a lot closer than we think.  In fact, they believe it to be in our own solar system.  Can anyone guess where that is?

I'll give you a hint.  It's not Mars. ;)
Europa or Titan? :smile