Disney Dissapointment

[bestariana1girl]

Personally, I think that Simba's refusal to go back when Nala pleads him for help, thus dooming everyone in the pride to die, just because he felt guilty was more selfish than anything Kiara or Kovu did, and certainly more so than Kiara running off after Kovu's banishment. Sure it wasn't wise and sure there was a battle afterwards, but she wouldn't have known of the incoming threat.

Simba on the other hand was specifically told by Nala just how bad off they were and how they were going to starve if he didn't do something. Yet despite knowing, he still refuses to help. By doing so, he was pretty much willing to let his old family die just so he could escape having to deal with the past. Now that's what I'd call selfish. Yes you can say that Simba thinking he killed his father was bad and that he was traumatized, but there is a clear difference between refusing to go back because he's depressed and willing to let everyone die because he is depressed. Sad or not, this act was selfish as Simba was putting himself above his old family.

Kovu and Kiara, on the other hand, as pointed out, do go back to stop the war instead of running off and starting their own pride. And they didn't stay away for months and years just because of feeling depressed. They were only gone for a few hours and they returned (with Kiara herself being the one to initiate this return). By going back to the pride instead of leaving to begin their own, they show they were more selfless than Simba had been in the previous movie (who needed his ghost dad to come down and tell him to go back instead of his best friend who went into more detail about how awful their home had gotten).

Another thing I forgot to point out before is that Kovu and Kiara aren't even fully grown. They're still teenagers, and thus their personalities aren't set in stone yet. We don't know just how they will be as full grown adults. For all we know, they would make wonderful leaders.

Personally I think they'd make pretty good leaders, especially since, in their teenage years, they displayed more responsibility and selflessness than Simba did as a full grown adult.

I completely agree!   I didn't even think of Simba's actions, Simba's actions were way more selfish then Kiara's & Kovu's.

Although, I'm still very bothered by Disney's revisions of Kiara for The Lion Guard.

[Nick22]

the problem is that Kiara and kovu  didnt take long enough to settle their issues. Kovu has just been exiled, something that is supposed to last for years, at least. hes been rejected by his family, meaning hes supposed to spend at least some time- weeks, but more likely months- wandering around the savannah looking for a new home. and Kiara doesnt get to run off in  open defiance of her father and came back home without penalty, i e Simba should have stripped her  of her birthright for her actions- a role that she didnt even want as a kid. " you have not shown to be reliable and trustworthy. I must look elsewhere, for this prides next leader." as for Kovu, returning to the pride would have been a  certain death sentence, since an exile is the harshest punishment a king  can give out short of execution, and exile is always 'upon pain of death' ie you come back, you'll be killed on the spot  ' Kovu should have been adamant about not coming back for that reason, because his neck is on the line, not Kiara's, although truthfully a pissed off Simba may  well disown her and order her execution as well for helping Kovu.

 this isnt a decision you make lightly, as the price you pay for making it, is extremely high.  theres no walking it back. Simba didnt show Scar any mercy, because Scar would not show him any, it was a kill or be killed situation. mercy is a luxury  you have after you win, then you can be as benevolent as you want to your beaten enemies. Teenagers dont make good leaders, because they dont have the experience and wisdom needed to guide companies or  countries successfully. kiara was the weak link of the pride, gullible and naive and something Zira should have exploited more, or targeted more. If you cant kill a king outright, you cripple his legacy, by taking out his kids. Kiara , being in the pride the entire time, should have been aware of what was going on re Zira and the outsiders. to be ignorant of such things when you should know about them is not good leadership. Simba because of his long absence, could be forgiven for not knowing anything about - or not caring about - what was going on back home. kiara doesnt have that excuse.

[bestariana1girl]

Well, yes but at the same time the exile was not fair to Kovu and that's why Kiara tried to talk to Simba about it. Another reason Kiara went to find Kovu, because Simba wouldn't listen to how Kovu wasn't part of the outsiders plan. It couldn't last for years because Simba had to find out the truth, it was unfair to Kovu.

[Nick22]

Simba didnt trust Kovu at that point, and it being fair or not wasnt important, he had to protect his pride and himself from his enemies which he included  Kovu as one of them. he could have ordered Kovus execution, which is not something you can walk back. an exile can be lifted you cant undo an execution once its carried out. Course, Kovu was meant to be an assassin(which many glass over) and the only good assassin is a dead one. if he succeeded, thats great for Zira, she can take over the Pridelands, if he fails and is either killed in the attempt or executed, hey she has a martyr for her cause. Kovu was a means to an end. Kiaras action put the pride at great risk, and great risk to herself. whos to say Zira doesnt find her with Kovu and has her killed?

 Love can make you take risks and sometimes the risks dont pay off. Kovu should have told Kiara to go back home, live out her life and forget about him, hes a traitor and always was. the rescue of her? Staged. his affection for her? a con so he could kill her dad.  Kiara should taken the fact that Kovu has been thrown out more seriously, and the fact that hes been trying to kill her dad MUCH more seriously. He may have doted on her and spoiled her to the point of aggravation, but hes still her father. leaders have to take that very seriously for obvious reasons.

. She can talk to Simba, and reveal her thoughts and get absolutely nowhere,  because its not her call to make but his. Simba had very good reason to not trust Kovu, while he may not have been part of that specific plan to kill him, he had abused Simbas hospitality and had been a part of a longer attempt to kill him, something no king can ever tolerate.  that longer part, even though Kovu had not officially made an attempt on his life, made him persona non grata in the Pridelands. if Kovu had actually made an attempt, then he almost certainly would have failed (Simba is likely 100 pounds bigger than Kovu is, and much stronger) and his life would have been forfeit.  
 All Kiara has to do to undo the exile is wait until she becomes Queen, that will be one of her first acts as leader , is to lift it. Patience would have served her far better than committing insubordination.

[DarkHououmon]

Well, yes but at the same time the exile was not fair to Kovu and that's why Kiara tried to talk to Simba about it. Another reason Kiara went to find Kovu, because Simba wouldn't listen to how Kovu wasn't part of the outsiders plan. It couldn't last for years because Simba had to find out the truth, it was unfair to Kovu.

Yeah, I have to agree. Simba didn't even give Kovu a chance to explain his side of the story, which is not really a sign of good leadership or diplomacy. Even if Simba was certain Kovu was part of it, he should have at least let Kovu explain. Kiara had every right to be angry at Simba for chasing him off without allowing him a chance to defend himself.

[Nick22]

the truth is Dark, the fact that he was not a part of the  latest attempt was irrelevant. the fact is he had been lying to Simba this whole time, abusing his hospitality.  he  had a whole song about how much of a scumbag he is, as the pride found out he was an assassin. the fact that he  had not made an attempt didnt  matter, because everything up to that point had been revealed as  a long con, lie after  lie all in order to try and kill Simba. Simba had every right to throw Kovu out, and why should he have to pay any heed to a lioness who Kovu has been playing for a chump this entire time? When Kiara becomes queen she can lift the exile and let him back in. Patience would have served her far better than running away in a huff.

 But i've discussed the matter enough. i'm not going to watch the show at all, so whatever happens in the show, as far as I'm concerned, doesnt count.

[bestariana1girl]

Why would they make all the changes/revisions tho?

[Ruby2]

Kiara wasn't even planning to run away for good.  She had planned to get Kovu and try and resolve the problem.  She never intended to run away, that was Kovu's idea to have them run away, whcih she turned down.  

Besides, it was Mufas's will that Kiara and Kovu end up toghether to end the conflict.  

[Nick22]

Its the fact that she left AT ALL Ruby, thats important. remember leadership requires you  have the ability to be relied on when the chips are down. running away  in a huff is the exact opposite of leadership.  coming back afterwards isnt important, the fact that she left in the first place is what counts. Both Nala and Zazu should have stepped in to prevent her from leaving or at least warn her about what would happen if she left. the price for insubordination is very high, for her, its being disowned(stripped of her title and birthright) and/ or being exiled. remember shes not the queen, and that leaving as she did  ensures that she never will be.  her father will be absolutely livid when he finds out she ran off. Forcing them together, renders all their actions irrelevant and moot, even through Kovu was trying to literally kill the king and take over the pride. trying to kill the king? Doesnt matter. committing treason by openly defying a kings lawful order? doesn't matter.

 the fact is I wouldn't trust either Kovu or Kiara with the responsibility of running a hot dog stand, let alone something as important as running a kingdom, a kingdom that her family has ruled for generations, and requires strong leadership and good judgement  to maintain. both of them needed, as Grandpa Joe put it about Veruca Salt  in the 1971 version of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory'  A good kick in the pants", for Kovu, a beatdown by another male, just to show hes not an alpha type, and give him some humility. and Kiara needed a dressing down by either Simba or Nala to pop the teenage bubble shes been living in. they are looking at the big picture, shes a teenager whos ticked they dont like her boyfriend and think hes a worthless lout. in this case, her folks are right, he IS a lout. good guys don't try to kill the rightful king by treachery.

at any case Kovu at that point was FAR too agreeable to coming back, given that hes been kicked out of both the Outsiders and the Pridelands,and has a death sentence on his head if he returns to the latter, he should want nothing to do with either side, in fact he should be halfway to Timbuktu by now, looking for another pride that will take him in and not care about his past so he can move on with his life. he should want nothing to do with Kiara either, whos a reminder of all the lying hes done, and all the scheming. kiara is wasting her time going to him.

[bestariana1girl]

Brighter News! Here is the new book art for I Can't Wait To Be Queen!



Even if they make her a cub again, I'm just glad she is her original colors.

[Cancerian Tiger]

I agree that TLK II was a letdown compared to the original.  Sequels seldom trump the originals.  I had issues with some of the characters from the get-go and felt they could've handled things differently.

As far as Kiara and Kovu are concerned, I think it would've been more realistic for them to go along with Kovu's suggestion of starting their own pride somewhere else.  Being a free-spirit and doing what's right by standing by the love of your life is a powerful theme, and Disney should've decided to either solely focus on that theme and make a much better sequel in which perhaps all three prides would engage in war before deciding to come together.  Instead, I felt they had too much going on with multiple themes in one movie.

Also, is it just me or did Simba feel a bit out of character in this one?  I adored Simba in the original, but found him to be arrogant and judgemental in the second one.  I felt like his title had perhaps gotten to his head and he didn't realize he was turning into a more ugly personality.  I've personally seen how positions of power can change people.  I've even had some friendships become shaky because my friends' big promotions got the best of them.  I have always told myself that I will do my best to remain humble when I become boss and to not lose touch with reality.  Simba at least seemed to realize what was happening to him towards the end of the film.

[Nick22]

Prides take a long time to form CT, months or even years. theres simply no way Kovu or Kiara could convince enough lions and lionesses to join them and form a pride in the very  short time between them leaving and Zira attacking the Pridelands, for them to then turn around and return home.  Zira would have attacked the kingdom within days, a week at the latest. the pair would have been off trying to form a pride by that point. a war was inevitable for one reason, Zira wanted it, and she was a fanatic. no amount of reasoning will convince a fanatic to stop what they are doing. once she had invaded, refusing to fight was no longer a realistic option, if anything she would interpreted it as a surrender. in romeo and Juliet, the story SP is loosely based on, the two enemy families dont stop fighting until both Romeo and Juliet off themselves, only then do they realize how pointless their fighting was. the equivalent would be Zira killing Kiara in a last ditch attempt to force Kovu to kill Simba, only to enrage Kovu into fighting her and sending  both of them to their deaths over the cliff. only afterwards would Vitani and simba- the surviving leaders  set aside their differences. Kovu did absolutely nothing in the film to mark himself as an alpha male, someone  who shows leadership and reliability, a reign of him and Kiara would be short, the first pride that wanted to invade would likely make short work of them.