LBT 12: Things Change.

[landbeforetimelover]

I dunno about you guys but the song "things change" seemed to be ended pretty abruptly.  I dunno if I was just enjoying the song so much and was dissappointed when it was over, or if it really was ended kinda abruptly.  What do you think?

[Malte279]

Of those songs LBT 12 provided I consider "Things Change" the best. I wouldn't go so far as to rank it among the best land before time songs, but Cera sure had an impressive solo there. I suppose the outcome of the voting for the next song project goes to show that the song is generally popular.

[Teresa]

yeah. i don't think "It will turn into something good" was a great way to end it. Anything but the word "good" would have made it better. Still i absolutley love this song.

[action9000]

"Things Change" seems to be a somewhat unusual song.  I'd like to say it was well-done but upon closer inspection (I have been working with this song in much detail laely), I must say I'm not overly impressed with very many elements of it.

I actually didn't have a huge problem with the ending.  Compared to a lot of LBT songs, both the start and the ending of "Things Change" seemed fairly typical of LBT ballads:
-Big fancy chorus, however short, repeated a 2nd time
-Slowdown
-Slow instrumental closure of the song

I never really felt that "Things Change" sounded overly abrupt on its ending.  My concerns with this song are actually the instrumental music in the background.  upon inspecting it closely (though I haven't looked at the entire song in detail yet, just first couple of minutes), there are some strange elements which are relatively difficult to reproduce.  I also find it difficult to hear what is going on in this song.  The instrumental voices seem to cover each other up and there are all sorts of little effects all over the place, on pianos, guitars, and who-knows-what, most of which don't seem to make a lot of sense.  More than once already, my ears have been confused as to what I'm actually listening to.  I hear a chord somewhere but when I try to mentally break down the sound into its individual parts, it no longer exists.  I don't know what it is about this song but effects and sounds seem to just "appear", from no apparent source.  I blame that electric piano; it has such a vast frequency range which appears whenever it strikes a note, it's hard to hear around it.  This song is so simple yet so confusing at the same time.

Upon a first listen, the song sounds very simple.  Taking a closer look at it, the song is filled with seemingly random elements which, to me, seem to be there mainly to make the lives of people like me who attempt to reproduce it, very...interesting

The ending...I'm actually glad they didn't make it much longer.  If the song was to be extended much more, it would have needed to be done very smoothly and very professionally or it would just sound...too long.  As the song is right now, it's basically what I expect from an LBT song; short, to the point, fade in, fade out, slow start, build up, brief final chorus, slowdown, quiet exit.  What they could have done is added one more line before "it could change into something good" to smooth out the ending a little bit.  That being said though, I don't have any huge complaints with the ending.  I must say, I like the harmony in the singing near the end.

Overall the sound *sounds* nice from a first or second listen, but if one looks at it in detail it may sound more "confused" than many LBT songs.

[Manny Cav]

Speaking of songs ending abruptly, I recently got a reminder of how pretty I thought "It Takes All Sorts" in LBT 4 was with my recent purchase of "The Songs From The Land Before Time" CD (I gotta stop plugging that every chance I get ). Not just the end, but everything else about it. The end, however, was... beautiful, but abrupt at the samr time. It ended like so:

Ali: "So, the surest and securest way which everyone supports is simply to-"
Everyone: "Taaake aaall-"

And, then, I got a rush I wasn't expecting, but I always hope for in songs like this -- they jumped a key (at least that's what my ears told me ) before finishing off with "sooorts"! Of course, this isn't always a good thing, but it certainly made it end beautifully (at least for me). However, I was disappointed to just see it end after that. I've watched the movie and I knew it wasn't going to go on past that, but that didn't make it any better for me. I really hoped they would continue singing like that (something I rarely say of an LBT movie, as I've even occasionally had to restrain myself from fast forwarding ). I was sad to just see it end like that. So beautiful....

I also liked "Grandma's Lullaby", but, incidentally, LBT 4 is also home to one of my least liked songs in the franchise -- "Who Needs You". I loathe that song. It just doesn't fit. It is so bad, I would sooner prefer some of the LBT TV songs over Icky and Dicky

[action9000]

they jumped a key (at least that's what my ears told me  ) before finishing off with "sooorts"!

I haven't done much analysis of the music for "It Takes All Sorts" but I think I hear some key changes in that song too.  

As for it ending abruptly...I actually find that nearly all LBT songs end quite quickly but it seems to be in their nature.  The producers want to keep the songs short, which many of them are (I can't think of any that are over 3 minutes).  Keeping intros and outros/endings short is part keeping a song's length down.

You're probably not talking about that so much as the fact that a few songs may just end suddenly...I don't really find that actually; perhaps I'm used to the LBT song style to the point where it seems "normal" to have the songs end as they do.  LBT songs are basically "compressed" versions of "full-length" songs, and a quicker ending is the result.  Whether or not some songs end too quickly....totally up for debate. B)  I personally find that none of the songs end too quickly or just "suddenly disappear".  The music generally carries through from the 2nd last line or so, to help "hint" at the end of the song.  I actually find the songs quite well-done from the perspective of length and structure.

[Manny Cav]

It was just more of a want for them to keep going that anything else. Mabey the ending was "done alright", so to speak, but I was just hoping for a little more. You hate to see (hear?) a good thing end....

[action9000]

You hate to see (hear?) a good thing end....

So true. B)
I actually find the LBT songs to be generally long enough.  I think the main reason for this, actually, is because of the mixing/mastering done on the songs.  I find the way the songs are mixed keep them sounding fairly "Static" and lifeless, almost.  For the sake of the film, I basically understand why they did what they did.  The only problem is that it doesn't lend itself to being super-easy for me to listen to on its own.  I understand the mixing choices because:
1) The story takes place generally outside, meaning reverb will be basically nil and decay times will be very short.  Beyond the Mysterious Beyond is one song where the sound is slightly closer to what I would probably do.  Still though, the voices lack something...
2) They want the lyrics to be easy to understand so the mixers brought the singers way up front in the mix.  I just find them a little overpowering at times, and
3) the background parts are often compressed so much that they're almost lifeless.  (some exceptions of course)

This is one place where you will hear a HUGE difference between the original LBT songs and our Gang of Five versions.  My mixes will Always sound bigger and fuller than the originals; that is just my personal preference.   Even with just the music alone.  The LBT mixes sound like the song was performed outside with somebody cranking up the vocal microphones.  My mixes ideally sound like they're performed by a live band in a hall or other large indoor location, with the focus being on overally ambience, emotion and atmosphere, instead of a few chords and the lyrics.  Basically, I find the LBT song mixes too lifeless to enjoy very much on their own.  I prefer the sound of our GoF versions almost exclusively over the sound of the originals.  I still give the originals credit though: They can definitely sing better than our little group.  Singing ability aside though, I just don't like the mixing style of the original LBT songs.

A song doesn't have to be big and burly in order for me to appreciate it, please don't misunderstand me.  I just find that the sound in the original songs seems so thin and weak, like somebody was having too much fun with an equalizer.

[Manny Cav]

A song doesn't have to be big and burly in order for me to appreciate it, please don't misunderstand me.  I just find that the sound in the original songs seems so thin and weak, like somebody was having too much fun with an equalizer.

I was really concentraing more on the vocals than anything else.

[action9000]

I was really concentraing more on the vocals than anything else. 

That's another reason LBT does it - they can get away with it! :  Most people just don't care.

I look at it this way: Disney movies have great family-oriented soundtracks and the mixing is fantastic for the most part.  I just wish that LBT had a similar level quality put into their music production.  I don't demand the same level of extravagance as Disney goes into for writing the songs themselves, but I do like how Disney mixes.  LBT could use a similar mixing technique and the songs would come alive so much more.  It's just a little disappointing to me.  Listen to a Disney song  (preferrably '90s or newer) compared to an LBT song and you'll see what I mean.

[Manny Cav]

Hahaha, well, if I thought that the music wasn't any good, I would be too busy griping about that to notice how good the vocals were. But, you seem to have picked up where I left off. Is that a bad thing? Or a good thing? :

But, I really was too captivized by the vocals (probably because of the reasons you posted ) to pay the music as much atteniton as it may have required. It's not uncommon for me to listen more to the vocals than the background music on any type of music, but that doesn't mean that I DON'T pay ANY attention to the background music, just that my mind is more focused on other things (and, again, that trait may be amplified by the findings you previously posted).

[action9000]

I totally understand where you're coming from.  I am actually referring to the song *as a whole*, not the background music exclusively.  When I say "the mix" I'm referring to the blending of the background music with both itself (other instruments) and the vocalists.

It's true, the vocal parts in Things Change were Fantastic!    I'd say it's one of my favorite LBT songs, it's very beautiful.

But, I really was too captivized by the vocals (probably because of the reasons you posted  ) to pay the music as much atteniton as it may have required.

Required?  Naw!  Whether or not you like the mixing in a song is very personal.  If it doesn't bother you, or you like it, great!  I find the songs lacked depth and fullness but then again, perhaps it would have been painful to have these same songs in a fuller form in a movie like LBT.  It's a two-way street.  Disney mixing works in Disney movies, but who knows how well it would fit into an LBT film...probably not very, actually.

It's not uncommon for me to listen more to the vocals than the background music on any type of music, but that doesn't mean that I DON'T pay ANY attention to the background music, just that my mind is more focused on other things

And I definitely pay attention to vocals.  B) I find the music in the song fantastic!  I find the vocals in the song fantastic!  I just don't like how the sound engineer put it all together, from a musical sense.  For the sake of the film, it's perfect.  For the sake of listenability away from the film, I find the song lacks the ability to sound *good* in that "close your eyes and get emmersed in the music" sort of way.  I find the mixing kills that.

[Kor]

Quite an analysis, you guys sound like experts.  As for disney songs on LBT, anyone tried doing a music video with disney songs but LBT video?

[action9000]

Quite an analysis, you guys sound like experts.

LOL
I'm an amateur composer/mixer/audio engineer.  I could go into more detail on some of these posts but I don't want to bore everyone anymore than I already am

That being said, I'm no expert.  As said above, I'm an amateur.  I'm also fighting with the fact that I'm doing most of my analysis on headphones.  Speakers would be considerably more appropriate.  

As for disney songs on LBT, anyone tried doing a music video with disney songs but LBT video?

Any MV artists want to give this a shot?  I'm not one. :

[Manny Cav]

Quite an analysis, you guys sound like experts.

LOL
I'm an amateur composer/mixer/audio engineer.  I could go into more detail on some of these posts but I don't want to bore everyone anymore than I already am

Hahaha, I'm barely keeping up with you (if you can even call it that ), and you're calling yourself "amateur", whilst threatening to pull out the big guns.

It's not uncommon for me to listen more to the vocals than the background music on any type of music, but that doesn't mean that I DON'T pay ANY attention to the background music, just that my mind is more focused on other things

And I definitely pay attention to vocals.  B) I find the music in the song fantastic!  I find the vocals in the song fantastic!  I just don't like how the sound engineer put it all together, from a musical sense.  For the sake of the film, it's perfect.  For the sake of listenability away from the film, I find the song lacks the ability to sound *good* in that "close your eyes and get emmersed in the music" sort of way.  I find the mixing kills that.

Hahaha, getting "emmersed" is exactly what I do when listening to some of the LBT songs (not most of them, though ), so I guess this whole "pulling the vocals out and placing the background music in the background (notice something strange there?)" must be more bothersome to you than it is to me.

I'm sure that also places a bit of a burden on you, with your position of "remixing" the songs into karaoke versions so we can sing along with them.

[action9000]

I need to relax my brain from my huge music project for a bit so I'll take some time to respond here:

Hahaha, I'm barely keeping up with you (if you can even call it that ), and you're calling yourself "amateur", whilst threatening to pull out the big guns.

Haha fair enough.  I actually couldn't go into a heck of a lot more detail without having to do some research, myself.  Mainly I want to avoid this conversation getting too technical.

I'm sure that also places a bit of a burden on you, with your position of "remixing" the songs into karaoke versions so we can sing along with them.

Yes and no:
In a way, I enjoy the process of rewriting the song because then I hear the song the way I want to hear it.  It's almost like a "before and after" scenario; I can compare the mixing and overall sound of the original versus our custom version.  Sometimes I prefer the original.  Other times, I prefer my remake.  It just depends on the song.  

While it's true, I need to listen to the original song A LOT in order to reproduce it, seeing the project all come together really makes it not as painful as one might think.  While I'm working on reproducing the music, I am not really paying attention to "the song" or trying to enjoy the song for the sake of what it is; instead, I am listening very analytically and precisely.  The song sounds very different when you are listening for the purpose of attempting to reproduce it.  The ear tunes into to the song, one "layer" (instrument or frequency range) at a time, in order to plunk away at the remake.  I'll focus on a single instrument within a small section of the song and plug those notes into my software, then I'll go back to the original song and repeat the process on another "layer" of the song until the song is complete.  I don't really "listen to the song" while I'm working; I'm just "listening to the audio" while trying to gather as much information from the original audio as I can, by ear.  It's really not so bad at all listening to the song the hundreds or thousands of times I do, because I listen to it in very small chunks, and I'm only really listening (well, trying to listen) to one or two layers at any one time.

Hahaha, getting "emmersed" is exactly what I do when listening to some of the LBT songs (not most of them, though ), so I guess this whole "pulling the vocals out and placing the background music in the background (notice something strange there?)" must be more bothersome to you than it is to me.

Haha, maybe I'm just strange.
On this topic, I am curious about something: What do you think of how the sound of my music compares to that of the original songs?  Do you like it better, worse, the same?  Do you hear much of a difference?  Do you feel much of a difference?  I'm not sure if you've listened to many of our earlier LBT karaoke songs (If We Hold On Together, Always there, No One Has To Be Alone, Lone Dinosaur, Bestest Friends) but if you have, I am wondering what you (and everyone) thinks of the sound of our versions compared to the originals.

[Manny Cav]

On this topic, I am curious about something: What do you think of how the sound of my music compares to that of the original songs?  Do you like it better, worse, the same?  Do you hear much of a difference?  Do you feel much of a difference?  I'm not sure if you've listened to many of our earlier LBT karaoke songs (If We Hold On Together, Always there, No One Has To Be Alone, Lone Dinosaur, Bestest Friends) but if you have, I am wondering what you (and everyone) thinks of the sound of our versions compared to the originals.

I honestly haven't listened seriously to any of that. I registered in July, I think, just a week after finding this site. My main motive there was the fact that landbeforetimelover's TV episode links weren't working, and I really wanted to see those new episodes. But, anyway, I wasn't around for the other singing projects, so I just haven't paid much attention to them. The only one I've listend to from bow to stern is the "outtake edition" of If We Hold on Together you and 2 others sang, but I won't hold that one against you or use it as a measuring rod for your other remixes.