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Lets talk Lossless!

Petrie. · 12 · 2833

Petrie.

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Let's face it...consumers are listening to their music more on computers than ever before, and with technology increasing to where 1TB drives will be the norm someday soon, why would you need to store lossy (ala mp3 files) on your computer?  Thus, I would see more people turning to lossless compression where you have a bit-perfect copy of cd audio on your computer.  At the present time, most all lossless codecs compress cd audio around 50% depending on the genre of music.

The Players

ALAC (Apple's lossless codec)
FLAC (Free Lossless Audio Compressor)
Monkey's Audio (APE, I don't believe its being developed anymore)
TAK (Tom's Audio Kompressor)
WavPack (a hybrid encoder)
WMAL (Windows Media Audio Lossless)

I've tested all of these at one time or another.  As of this writing, the most common/popular codec is FLAC because its supported by many different software programs and is cross-platform.  You would think that all the ipod users would use Apple's lossless, and the Windows computer users would use Windows Media Lossless but they don't.  Most don't even check the box to encode like that.

For the hell of it, I did two simple comparisons.

The Land Before Time soundtrack:

ALAC - 255 mb, (undertermined avg. kbps)
FLAC - 249 mb, 599kbps
TAK - 242 mb, 583kbps
WMAL - 244 mb, (undetermined avg. kbps)

Not much difference for the album as a whole, but its pretty easy to encode.  Less than 1 mb per track difference.

Wicked (2003 Broadway Musical Soundtrack):

ALAC - 450 mb, (undertermined avg. kbps)
FLAC - 432 mb, 848kbps
TAK - 424 mb, 832kbps
WMAL - 426 mb, (undertermined avg. kbps)

The differences could have been up to 3 mb on certain tracks but all compressors got about all they could out of it.

Generally speaking, compression ratios when compared to the size of the harddrive is mute, but it does add up over dozens of albums.  We'll all be listening to lossless in the future.  Right now, FLAC is the mp3 of lossless and has the most support in the industry.  It may stay that way, and it may not if Windows users start turning to WMAL in Media Player.

Any thoughts here?


action9000

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There are a few reasons I still use MP3 over lossless in most cases, the number 1 reason being:
1) Portability.  My MP3 player doesn't like lossless.  Even if it did, lossless files would fill a 1GB MP3 player pretty quick.

2) Laziness.  I do want mp3s for portability and I've been too lazy to rip all of my CDs twice (or rip lossless and convert to mp3 later) to get the lossless file.

I download a fair chunk of my music and most of it simply isn't available in lossless formats, so I take what I can get. :p

You're right, Petrie; hard drive space isn't really an issue anymore.  I'm just waiting for the rest of the world to catch up to lossless. :lol


Petrie.

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Lossless on portables isn't worth it.  That's not what I'm assuming.  Lossy codecs will always have their place in portable audio to save on battery life and space.


NeptuneNavigator2001

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True...  With my LPs, after I rip them to WAV, I encode them to FLAC.  That way, nothing is lost.  (Some people can hear the difference between lossless and MPEG Layer 3, even if something's encoded at a really high bitrate.  Plus, on a digital medium, the LPs WILL sound different, and not just because of the speaker differences...  However, again, some of us - myself included, unfortunately; must be my slightly under-developed ear - can't hear that difference, though analog mediums have been described as "warmer" than their digital counterparts.  I mean, heck, I can't hear any difference between my LPs today, and those that I've had for over ten years.)
"And the Most High said unto Moses, Ahayah-Asher-Ahayah.  And he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, Ahayah hath sent me unto you...  This is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."

1953-2011...  One day, mother, I shall see you again...


Petrie.

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You aren't one of those "LP's sound warmer than CD" type are you? :p :p  If you are, I can always shoot back with, "at least my orchestra doesn't have a big static crack in the middle of a creschendo". :lol: ;)


NeptuneNavigator2001

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Well, that depends upon whether or not it's actually true...  I think it might be, but I just can't hear any difference.  Hey hey now, I'm accepting of change, it's a part of mankind.  A part of life.  ...Heck, you can even re-record a CD to a reel-to-reel deck, and get the warmth back...  You DID know that, right?  (But hey, like I said, probably due to my under-developed ear, I can't tell any difference.  But, I think Teo Macero is right...  He's been there.)

I don't have that sort of ear; I even ripped "B****es Brew" to WAV and burned it to CD, and tried to compare the horn echoes in the second track - with the volume turned up...  (With my record console patched through my computer, nonetheless.)  Couldn't hear a darn bit of difference.  Some people can.  If I was to ever record any "trumpet sessions," I was planning on recording to a reel-to-reel first.  Saving the digital end for the very last.  But yes, I am accepting of this sort of thing.  I'm actually quite accomodating on certain topics...  Don't jump the gun, Petrie.

EDIT: For all I know, "warmer" might mean...  Oh, who am I kidding?  You have to hear it to describe it, and I just plain can't.  But, I do know that because of the frequency of CDs, there's just something....  There, that I can't describe.

EDIT 2: Geez, what do you have against LPs?  CDs will actually ROT over time; you'd be lucky if a CD lasts you twenty years before it decays into nothingness and refuses to play.  (That's why I like Blu-ray Disc...)  But, I've seen LPs that are over sixty years old, that will still play, to this day.
"And the Most High said unto Moses, Ahayah-Asher-Ahayah.  And he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, Ahayah hath sent me unto you...  This is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."

1953-2011...  One day, mother, I shall see you again...


Petrie.

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There are reasons I have emoticons like this :p and this :P:.  They simply mean don't take the statement before to heart.

I've nothing against the LP.


NeptuneNavigator2001

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...Sorry...  I seem to be in a, touchy mood today...  ...Maybe I played Pink Floyd's "High Hopes" too much...
"And the Most High said unto Moses, Ahayah-Asher-Ahayah.  And he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, Ahayah hath sent me unto you...  This is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."

1953-2011...  One day, mother, I shall see you again...


Petrie.

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Tim would be the first to tell you I'm not one to criticize listening experiences since I don't have you ears, and likewise you don't have mine.


action9000

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Quote
though analog mediums have been described as "warmer" than their digital counterparts.
That is actually possible to prove mathematically.  The question is, are the gains from using LPs worth the hassle of using LPs?  Maybe.  It depends on the situation.

Is it even worthwhile using LPs if you're going to be converting them to a digital format?   No, probably not unless you have an incredibly good LP player that will keep the sound very very high-quality and you have a recording device (aka. sound card) that will record with enough resolution to justify the use of an analog source.

Why is analog considered "warmer"?  Check out the image below.
Here is an image which compares an analog signal to a digital signal:

Notice how the digital signal is "sharper" and not as smooth as the analog line?  That's why the analog source sounds "warmer". B)

There are a couple of main reasons why analog is normally considered "better-sounding" than digital:
1) The analog signal captures every single instant of the source sound.  The digital signal only captures "Samples (snapshots) of the sound at set intervals (44,100 times per second in the case of CD-quality digital audio).  As a result, the sound wave created by the analog signal is smoother and "warmer" than the digital soundwave.  Fact of life, the analog signal is a smoother line than the digital signal.  It always will be.

2) This second reason relates back to the fact that digital audio "samples" the source sound instead of capturing every instant in time.  The maximum frequency that can be present in a digital signal is equal to half of the sampling rate.  To create a sound wave digitally, you need to know two points in time: the top of the wave and the bottom of the wave.  Because you need two points to create one cycle in the signal wave, the maximum frequency of the wave is half of the sampling rate.  The wave can really only be considered accurate when the frequency is closer to 1/4 of the sampling rate because the timing of the sampled points may not be equal to the peaks and troughs of the actual soundwave being recorded.  As a result, the digital signal distorts the original audio.  For example:

Digital audio on a CD is sampled at a rate of 44,100 samples per second.  This means that the highest possible frequency that can appear in an audio file is 22,050 Hz (cycles per second).  It also means that the accuracy of the waveform above about 12,000Hz starts to get questionable.  It's "good enough" in most cases but as the frequency of the sound starts to go higher, the less accurately it is captured.  This starts to give a "sharper", "harsher" sound that people will associate with digital music.  This is why studios typically record their sound with sampling rates of 48,000Hz, 96,000Hz, or 192,000Hz.  It brings the digital data closer to a smooth line, an "analog" sound with less distortion in the highest ranges of the music.  You can think of analog as being like a digital sound with an infinite sampling rate.  The higher the sampling rate, the closer the digital sound will be to an analog-like sound.  Petrie still thinks I'm nuts for trying to justify recording over 44,100 Hz (claiming that only his pet bat can hear the difference :lol:  :lol: ) but that's my reasoning. :p  :lol
Imagine there being twice as many dots, or 4 or 8 times as many dots on that picture above.  How much closer would that digital line be to the analog one?  Exactly. B)


On the other side though, digital has countless elements which make it preferrable in many cases:
1) It's easily portable and storable on electronic media.
2) It's virtually immune to interference from external sources (such as radio waves and nearby power sources and power lines).  Analog signals can pick up waves in the air and electrical noise from voltage sources and transmit them over the signal line to the output device (in this case, the speakers).
3) It's resistant to physical damage to the media (damage an analog source at all and you change the sound.  You can scratch a CD a little and it will still sound exactly the same as long as the digital data is readable at all).


Petrie.

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*pets his pet bat* :D :D :p

Seeing is one thing...but my hydrogenaudio roots say its never about how pretty it does (or does not) look.  I like the sound of a good digital recording.


NeptuneNavigator2001

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Hmm..  Yeah, every part of that post makes sense...  But I can't see the image... Probably gotta reconfigure one of my firewalls...  But yeah, EVERY part of that, makes sense to me...

EDIT: Yeah....  My sound cards...  They suck...  I don't exactly have "good" computer equipment, but it beats what I had a while ago...  Man, it beats the pants off of what I had...
"And the Most High said unto Moses, Ahayah-Asher-Ahayah.  And he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, Ahayah hath sent me unto you...  This is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."

1953-2011...  One day, mother, I shall see you again...