Anyone here ever read Tolkien?

Kor · **Reply #100 on:** February 27, 2009, 09:18:22 PM

True a very large role in it I'd guess, and Saruman should be in that one also. It would be neat if early in the film he was still good, then we could get a glimpse of what Saruman was like originally.

Nick22 · **Reply #101 on:** February 28, 2009, 02:33:15 PM

If its over the 60 years between the films, then whether or nor Saruman is "good" is up for debate. The relationship between Gandalf and Saruman was greatly strained at the final meeting of the White Council, which occured 12 years after the Battle of 5 armies.. so I don't personally think Saruman was 'good' even during this time.

Kor · **Reply #102 on:** February 28, 2009, 02:56:21 PM

Very likely not. likely he had not been good for a long time indeed.

Nick22 · **Reply #103 on:** February 28, 2009, 03:27:38 PM

At least a couple hundred years by my count, the last time we could place him as 'good" was during the 2700s T.A He delayed the White Council for decades which allowed Sauron to prepare his response to any thrust by the Council. When they finally acted (what they did is never mentioned) he fled to Bar-ra-dur in Mordor.

Kor · **Reply #104 on:** February 28, 2009, 04:08:57 PM

Very likely since I think he coveted the one ring by then. & may have been looking for it himself.

Nick22 · **Reply #105 on:** February 28, 2009, 04:30:51 PM

Most likely although the ring by that time had been in gollum's possession for hundreds of years. He was over 500 years old by the time he perished in the fires of mount Doom. I wonder what they would have done to him had he accidentally dropped the ring in, and not fallen in himself. They probably would have seized him and bound him hand and foot, and dragged him with them, him still crying about his precious..

Kor · **Reply #106 on:** February 28, 2009, 04:37:54 PM

Not sure about him, but I read that what they did to Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam in Valinor was, supposedly, to remove the effect of the ring on them and let them live out their normal lives. Forgot where I read that.

Malte279 · **Reply #107 on:** February 28, 2009, 04:45:01 PM

12 years maybe a very short time for wizards of thousands of years, but still a lot can happen within 12 years. Even wizards may not need more than 12 years to choose sides in a conflict. It may be that Saruman had not yet been corrupted.

Nick22 · **Reply #108 on:** February 28, 2009, 05:36:01 PM

Well, Kor, that would have probably resulted in Bilbo dying in a few years, he was 131 after all. I wonder if Gandalf returned to the form he took before going to middle Eartth. He was the only one of the Istari to complete his mission..

Kor · **Reply #109 on:** February 28, 2009, 08:48:42 PM

True on those accounts. I wonder if he did and if he would at times assume the Gandalf appearance once in a while.

Saruman went evil, Radgast fell by the wayside, so to speak, since he got to caught up in caring for animals it seems. As for the 2 blue wizards I read that early on Tolkein said they fell to serving Sauron, but I read later on he was thinking maybe they didn't and stayed in the east to try to talk folks into rebelling against Sauron, so not sure about them.

Nick22 · **Reply #110 on:** March 01, 2009, 01:18:21 AM

The Blue Wizards were not given names in the Trilogy, in fact were barely mentioned. whatever thier mission was, they failed, as they did not return to Valinor..

Kor · **Reply #111 on:** March 01, 2009, 01:47:39 AM

I read that, I read that one of his sons found in his father's writings that he did later on that he may have changed his mind. Whatever their fate they didn't succeed like Gandalf did. They can easily be ignored as even existing. Radgast is only in 1 scene I think in the trilogy.

Nick22 · **Reply #112 on:** March 01, 2009, 01:54:10 AM

well, Radagast is mentioned in the Hobbit, as Gandalf's "cousin", when he's talking to Beorn at Carrack. I doubt the wizards were actually related to each other than they were all maiar..

Kor · **Reply #113 on:** March 01, 2009, 02:31:29 AM

I thought he was mentioned in the hobbit at Beorn's house but I wasn't sure if I remembered correctly so I edited it out before I posted.

I doubt they were really related also, but likely just Gandalf, and maybe other wizards, to explain maybe why they looked similar to each other and were wizards.

Nick22 · **Reply #114 on:** March 01, 2009, 01:49:18 PM

an easy explanation. "Oh he's my cousin" rather than. He's a fellow maiar". I'm pretty sure the Valar forbade them from revealing thier true nature to anyone anyway, as well as fighting Sauron directly.

Kor · **Reply #115 on:** March 01, 2009, 06:16:58 PM

They likely were not supposed to tell, though doubtlessly some folks, mainly certain elves, would know. I think their mission was to assist those living in middle earth and not to directly battle Sauron.

Nick22 · **Reply #116 on:** March 02, 2009, 12:33:00 AM

That sounds about right. Elrond and Cirdan probably knew what they were , Cirdan being gifted with "deep" sight...

Kor · **Reply #117 on:** March 02, 2009, 12:42:02 AM

& gave the ring of fire that he had to Gandalf, which I think Saruman didn't like. Not sure when he found out. I think he gave it to Gandalf since he saw his need was greater, to help to inflame hope, or hearts or something, I forgot the exact reasons but it did help to show that Cirdan had deep sight. I also read he's the only elf to have a beard maybe to show his age or something, if is true he has one.

Nick22 · **Reply #118 on:** March 02, 2009, 12:47:18 AM

Yeah Saruman found out, abnd deeply resented it.. Cirdan was ancient even by elven standards. I think He was one of last living Elves from the First Age.

Kor · **Reply #119 on:** March 02, 2009, 12:49:56 AM

He was one of those elves that the Valar invited to the lands of Aman if I recall correctly. Even older then Galadriel if I am correct.