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Ptyra

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I need the guidance of one college-Aspie to another.

I haven't been doing this well with keeping up with my work this semester and it has been hurting my grades...or so I think, I'm still confused as to how they work. And it's been hurting my tests too.
So, do you have any advice you could offer for next semester that could be of value to me as a college student with Aspberger's?
(Or places to go for visual study aids like documentaries?)


vonboy

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I realised I never repliedto his, so I'll do it now.

Thanks for all that info on what dinosaurs might have tasted like. It was a really interesting read, and those links were a good read too. I'm soory it took so long to say thanks for it, Pangaea.

I have a couple new questions for you now, but I'd have to PM to you I think. They're things having to do with my fanfiction, and I wouldn't want to spoil that here. :)
Come check out my new Youtube gaming channel, Game Biter!
---------------------
Littlefoot: "Look, Chomper. You're uncle is dead, and it's just right for your friends to be there for you. You'd be there if someone we know died, right?"

Chomper: "Well, sure I would!"

Come give my LBT TV Series fanfiction, PAST-O-RAMA, a read!
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(Runner-Up)


Pangaea

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Rrrrgh…I’m so sorry, everyone. :bang I really wish I could have responded to these questions sooner. :oops

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I can't help but ask another question :smile .While I was visitig a zoo,I noticed how the male tiger was nearly twice as big as the female.But watching the owls,the female was bigger than the male.I wondered about this,and the t-rex came into my mind.Female t-rexes were bigger than males,and I guess this is true for all Theropods.But what about other species,such as ceratopsians,sauropods,stegosaurids,ankylosaurids?Were the female bigger than the male was a thing all dinosaur species shared,or only a few?
Now there’s a great question, and a subject I’d very much like to know more about. Unfortunately, at this point in time there really is no answer to that question, because it’s such a problematic task to identify a dinosaur’s gender (let alone gender-specific characteristics of an entire species) from fossils alone. In most cases it’s almost impossible to tell for certain whether disparities between two specimens ostensibly of the same species are attributable to sexual dimorphism, differences in age, simple variation between individuals of the same sex and age group, or even if they are two very closely related species or subspecies.

Apparently even the supposed size dimorphism in T. rex is not certain. It seems that the theory came about when someone interpreted T. rex specimens as coming in two morphs or body types: one larger and sturdier, the other smaller and more slender. It was postulated that the robust specimens represented females, on the basis of certain features of the tail vertebrae that could have permitted easier egg-laying, namely a reduced chevron bone on the underside of the first tail vertebra (a feature supposedly also found in crocodiles). Later, however, two problems with this theory turned up: the robust Tyrannosaurus “Sue” turned out to have a complete first chevron, and the article that had originally claimed that female crocodiles had a smaller first chevron than the males turned out to be mistaken (Whoops). Furthermore, there was not a large enough sample size of Tyrannosaurus specimens to prove that the species definitively came in two separate adult morphs; it’s equally possible that they represented different age groups.

More recently, however, a specimen of T. rex was discovered that had a much more telling gender-specific feature: medullary bone, a specialized tissue that develops within the bones of female birds when they are ready to lay eggs, to provide the calcium needed to form eggshells. Since this discovery, specimens of Tenontosaurus and Allosaurus have also yielded medullary bone. So it appears that we finally have a method for identifying female dinosaurs. The catch is that medullary bone is only present when the animal is reproductively active: if a female dinosaur died outside the breeding season, she would have no medullary bone to be fossilized. So we still don’t have a positive method of telling dinosaur genders apart.

Besides the T. rex example you mentioned, I cannot think of any other dinosaur species for which one gender has been postulated to be bigger than the other, though I have heard plenty of theories regarding dinosaur sexual dimorphism. For instance, two species of Parasaurolophus (the long-crested P. tubicen and the short, curved-crested P. cyrtocristatus) have been suggested to represent male and female (or alternatively adult and juvenile) of the same species. In the case of Protoceratops andrewsi, a species known from dozens of specimens across a wide range of ages, it has been proposed that individuals with larger neck frills and highly arched snouts were male, while those with flatter snouts and less prominent frills are female, though apparently there are still experts who are unconvinced. Other speculated examples of dinosaur sexual dimorphism are much more outlandish. I’ve even heard one bizarre hypothesis that Apatosaurus and Diplodocus were male and female of the same species. :huh:

One thing I’d like to point out is that even if paleontologists were to confirm a case of sexual dimorphism within a dinosaur species that involved the female being bigger than the male or vice versa, it would be highly presumptuous to conclude that all related dinosaurs probably exhibited the same pattern. In other words, if female Tyrannosaurus did turn out to be bigger than the males, that wouldn’t necessarily mean the same was true of all theropods.

Though not exactly sexual-dimorphism-related, one intriguing study I have heard concluded that, in at least some kinds of theropods (Troodon, Oviraptor, and the latter’s close relative Citipati were the genera studied), the male would breed with several females and incubate all of their eggs in one big nest, in the same manner as modern ratites (ostriches, emus, rheas, and cassowaries*). If this was indeed the case, then sexual dimorphism in these dinosaurs could go either way: male ostriches (and to a lesser extent rheas) are larger and more boldly patterned than females, but in emus and cassowaries, it is the female who is larger and showier (as well as more assertive in courtship).

While not strictly dinosaurs, there are a couple of pterosaur species for which there is good evidence for sexual dimorphism. As it turns out, all known adult fossils of the (arguably) most popular pterosaur of all, Pteranodon, come in two distinct types: roughly two thirds of them exhibit short crests, wide pelvic canals, and wingspans of around 13 feet (4 meters), while the last third have the long crests and 20-to-23-foot (6-to-7-meter) wingspans that most people associate with Pteranodon, along with proportionally narrower pelvic canals and blunter-tipped bills with prominent “overbites”. From this evidence, it seems likely that Pteranodon sexual dimorphism and breeding habits were much like those of lions and elephant seals: the females outnumbered the males, and were more modest in size and ornamentation; males probably had multiple mates, and sparred with one another for breeding rights (perhaps using those specialized bill tips?**), hence their larger size and flashier adornments.

Another pterosaur, Darwinopterus (a long-tailed variety from the mid-to-late Jurassic of China), is known from fewer specimens than Pteranodon, but presents a rather convincing argument for sexual dimorphism. Like Pteranodon, this species appears to come in two morphs: one with a crest and one without. I haven’t found any sources saying that the forms are any different in size, but the crestless versions do have proportionately larger pelvic girdles, and, most telltale of all, one remarkable crestless specimen was found preserved with an egg partially inside the pelvic canal (the egg was probably still inside the body when the pterosaur died, and was pushed out during decomposition). So this particular specimen was inarguably female, though it could still be the case that she is a different species from the crested Darwinopterus specimens, or that she was not yet at the age where she would have developed a crest. The most likely explanation, however, is that the crested Darwinopterus are male and the crestless ones are female. (Again, though, we shouldn’t assume that this pattern of sexual dimorphism was the case for all pterosaurs.)

Thanks for the question, and sorry for taking so long to answer it.

*Kiwis are also ratites (and the male does take care of the eggs), but they tend to be monogamous, and only brood one or two eggs at a time, probably because their eggs are so big in proportion to their body size that it would be difficult for the male (who is even smaller than the female) to incubate more than that.

**Now I can’t help but mentally compare male Pteranodon bills to jousting lances. Jousting Pteranodons…now there’s a cool image for you (As if pterosaurs weren’t awesome enough already :lol).

Sources:
http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/dinosaur/2...dinosaur-lives/

http://www.ncsu.edu/news/press_releases/05_06/133.htm/

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/tetrap...and-pterosaurs/

http://www.thescelosaurus.com/ceratopsia.htm

http://www.thescelosaurus.com/lambeosaurinae.htm

http://scienceblogs.com/grrlscientist/2008...h-of-mister-mo/

http://dinogoss.blogspot.com/2010/10/brontodiplodocus.html


http://www.flickr.com/photos/markwitton/22.../in/photostream

http://pterosaur.net/ecology.php

http://scienceblogs.com/tetrapodzoology/20...osaur-with-egg/

http://archosaurmusings.wordpress.com/2011...us-egg-awesome/


Quote from: Ptyra,Nov 13 2012 on  06:34 PM
I need the guidance of one college-Aspie to another.

I haven't been doing this well with keeping up with my work this semester and it has been hurting my grades...or so I think, I'm still confused as to how they work. And it's been hurting my tests too.
So, do you have any advice you could offer for next semester that could be of value to me as a college student with Aspberger's?
(Or places to go for visual study aids like documentaries?)
I'm sorry, Ptyra, I'm practically drawing a blank here. :( :bang

Looking back, I honestly can't comprehend how I made it through college as well as I did. I procrastinated on assignments, did a terrible job at keeping up with the assigned reading, and was severely stressed during the toughest times of the semester (especially when I had multiple projects to complete in a short period of time). I also discovered the GOF in my last year-and-a-half of college, so that was a considerable distraction as well. :oops

I did find that, when writing papers, at least, I was most productive when I had long, uninterrupted stretches of time to concentrate on finishing them. If I alternated between assignments, hopping from one to another and getting a little work done on each in turn, I tended to lose focus, and progress would be much slower than if I worked on completing one assignment at a time. (I think I sometimes did switch from one project to another if I hit Writer's Block on the one I was working on.) Also my highest priorities in any given workload were the assignments with the closest due dates, but that's just logic.

As for tests, I would usually just try to repeatedly review the relevant material as many times as I could (Sometimes I would ask one of my family members to quiz me). When I had to give presentations, I would practice them beforehand in front of family members, to time myself, memorize what I would say, and get feedback on my performance. (I did live at home while I was going to college, though, and if you're not doing the same, you might need to find other people to help you in these respects.)

I'm sorry. That's about all I can come up with. :oops Good luck with college!


Quote from: vonboy,Nov 19 2012 on  07:49 PM
I realised I never repliedto his, so I'll do it now.

Thanks for all that info on what dinosaurs might have tasted like. It was a really interesting read, and those links were a good read too. I'm soory it took so long to say thanks for it, Pangaea.

I have a couple new questions for you now, but I'd have to PM to you I think. They're things having to do with my fanfiction, and I wouldn't want to spoil that here. :)
You're welcome, Vonboy. I'm glad I could help. :)

No worries about the wait, either. As I’ve said multiple times, it would be incredibly unfair of me to complain to people for taking a long time to get back to me, considering how slow I am at responding to people. :oops

By the way, in the months since I answered that question, a new episode of MythBusters came out in which the hosts taste-tested a variety of meatsóincluding rattlesnake, peacock, goat, squab (pigeon), turtle, frog, alligator, and ostrichóthat have apparently been described as “tasting like chicken” at one time or another, to determine just how easily they could be mistaken for chicken. (One of the tests can be viewed here.) Even after grinding the meats up and cooking them as patties to remove the variable of texture, they concluded that virtually none of the meats could be easily confused with chicken. When I watched it, one of my first thoughts was “Oh darn, I wish this episode had aired sooner so that I could have told Vonboy about their results”. So I thought I’d let you know now.

And sure, you can PM me about those other questions. Be warned that it might take me a while to gt back to you if my answers end up being very detailed. If it’s urgent, though, I’ll do my best to be prompt.



Pronounced "pan-JEE-uh". Spelled with three A's. Represented by a Lystrosaurus.


Serris

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Another music question.

Favorite genre of music?

Poster of the GOF's 200,000th post

Please read and rate: Land Before Time: Twilight Valley - The GOF's original LBT war story.


FlipperBoidSkua

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Okay, my first question: can you forgive me for being so unresponsive lately? I'm sooooo very sorry about that. Between being obsessed with Super Mario Bros. and writing all sorts of fanfics, trying to keep my current job, trying to find an affordable apartment that allows pets (that one's been practically fruitless...looks like I might have to give up my ratties :( But at least my antlions can be passed as decorative bowls of sand...), and all sorts of other things, I have not been feeling very social at all, especially for the internet peoples... I hope you haven't been put off by my absence...

Second question: I'm working on making another 'realistic' drawing, this one with Red Claw, Screech, Thud, and the two super-preds intended in the RP (Gigano and Stromer, I believe was the name for the Spinosaurus). Do you have any sources that can help me on scaling these characters accurately and/or have any pointers you might be willing to give me? :)

And the main question in relation to that: Were Utahraptors feathered (I'm still convinced Screech and Thud are Utahraptors :p ) ? I know their smaller relatives were almost certainly feathered primarily for regulating body temperature, but larger animals tend to be better at maintaining body heat without an insulating coat. So were Utahraptors big enough to forsake feathers or did they stay true to their family's feathery heritage :D ?


Pangaea

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Quote from: Serris,Dec 8 2012 on  09:47 PM
Another music question.

Favorite genre of music?
There's not much I can say that I haven't already said in previous responses to music-related questions. I like music that sounds good to me, and that's about it (There's really no way I can think of putting it that doesn't sound stupid. :p). I just don't know enough about all the different music genres and what defines each one to be able to pigeonhole my musical preferences. :wacko I suppose I could say that there are three basic kinds of songs or tunes that I enjoy: lively, bouncy music; slower, "soothing" music; and exciting, "epic" music.


Quote from: FlipperBoidSkua,Dec 11 2012 on  03:26 PM
Okay, my first question: can you forgive me for being so unresponsive lately? I'm sooooo very sorry about that. Between being obsessed with Super Mario Bros. and writing all sorts of fanfics, trying to keep my current job, trying to find an affordable apartment that allows pets (that one's been practically fruitless...looks like I might have to give up my ratties But at least my antlions can be passed as decorative bowls of sand...), and all sorts of other things, I have not been feeling very social at all, especially for the internet peoples... I hope you haven't been put off by my absence...
Of course I forgive you, Sparky. :yes I'll admit, it's been pretty lonely without you around, but I understand completely (I’ve had plenty of times where I just didn’t feel like socializing or was engrossed in an obsession too), and I can honestly say I hold you no ill will for it.

Sorry to hear about your problems in real life, and especially about your rats. :( I wish you the best in finding an apartment that will accept them. (As for the antlions, won't you still have to smuggle ants into your apartment to feed them? :unsure:)

I do hope that, if you have the time and inclination, we’ll be able to pick up our abandoned conversations (Let me know if you need me to re-send you any e-mails or PMs, or remind you of threads in which I’m awaiting a response from you ;)). Put your real-life issues first, though. I don’t mind waiting longer.

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Second question: I'm working on making another 'realistic' drawing, this one with Red Claw, Screech, Thud, and the two super-preds intended in the RP (Gigano and Stromer, I believe was the name for the Spinosaurus). Do you have any sources that can help me on scaling these characters accurately and/or have any pointers you might be willing to give me?
Ooh, that picture sounds epic! :! Well, scaling isn’t one of my strong suits, but there’s plenty of scenes in the TV series showing the sharptooth trio together, so that shouldn’t be a problem, right? As for Gigano, we know he’s about the same size as Chomper’s parents, and Chomper claims that Red Claw is “the biggest sharptooth of all”, so that could mean that Gigano is actually slightly smaller than Red Claw. However, one possibility I just thought of is that Gigano is actually not a fully grown sharptooth (or at least he wasn’t at the time of LBT V): it could be that he was the sharptooth equivalent of an impulsive adolescent (more like a young adult). This could explain some of his behavior in LBT V (eating a bush because it smelled like the gang, managing to chomp down on his own tail, and taking on two angry parent sharpteeth: honestly, I’ve always thought that the guy seemed a few eggs short of a clutch), as well as why he was apparently smaller than Red Claw. Theoretically, Gigano could have experienced a late growth spurt since the events of LBT V (there’s good eatin’ to be had along the seaside :P:), so that he has attained his adult size by the time in which the RP takes place, which would conceivably allow him to be as big asóor even slightly bigger thanóRed Claw. So I guess you’re free to make Gigano whatever size in relation to Red Claw that you want. (If you’re going for realism, though, keep in mind that Giganotosaurus was only a few feet longer than Tyrannosaurus: perhaps 40–43 feet compared to T. rex’s 39–40 feet.)

Stromer the Spinosaurus’s size is a little harder to ascertain. I guess you could look at screenshots from LBT XII showing him next to the gang, compare them to shots from the TV series showing the gang next to Red Claw, and estimate the two sharpteeth’s relative sizes, though there’s no guarantee that it would be accurate, considering that the character scaling in LBT is often inconsistent. Somehow I envision Stromer as being the biggest of the super-pred trio. It’s possible that Chomper only assumes that Red Claw is the largest sharptooth around because he has never seen Stromer’s kind, or even that Chomper’s use of the word “sharptooth” only refers to his own species (or just does not include Spinosaurus because they look so different from other sharpteeth; even the gang asked “What is that thing?” when they saw Stromer for the first time). Even the real-life Spinosaurus’s size is not known for certain, since only fragments of its skeleton are known. We don’t know how long its tail was, for instance: this article provides a great visual representation of how this could affect Spinosaurus’s total length. The respective lengths of the Spinosaurus lengths in the drawing are stated to be 12, 14, and 16 meters (or 40, 46, and 53 feet). There’s also this scale chart from Wikipedia showing the comparative sizes of Tyrannosaurus, Giganotosaurus, Carcharodontosaurus, and Spinosaurus (which is assumed here to be around 46 feet long). It should be taken with a grain of salt, though; it’s impossible to know whether Spinosaurus had shorter legs or a shorter tail than are represented in the silhouette (More on the subject of Spino’s proportions later). And the author of this article suggests that Spinosaurus’s size has generally been overestimated, and that all of these mega-theropods were in about the same size range: about 42 feet long (give or take two to three feet). I should think that you would be safe with a conservative length of 45–46 feet for Stromer, 42–43 feet for Gigano, and 40–42 feet for Red Claw (remember that he is supposedly a rather large T. rex). But, like any animal, dinosaurs surely varied in size even as adults, so you can feel free to tweak those dimensions if you want.

This brings me to my next challenge: pointers on how to draw your dinosaurs realistically. Hoo-wee…three different species this time; four if you wanted tips on Utahraptor as well. :blink:

Let me get Utahraptor over with first, since I presume you’re more interested in info on the three mega-theropods. (Let me know if I am incorrect in this assumption.) Unfortunately, Utahraptor ostrommaysorum is one of those dinosaurs that is only known from a few intriguing fragments, so there’s not much I can tell you about what it looked like. I can tell you that it is believed to have belonged to the group of dromaeosaurids known as dromaeosaurines, which were more heavily built than their relatives the velociraptorines (e.g., Velociraptor and Deinonychus). To my knowledge, the most complete known dromaeosaurine is its eponymous member, Dromaeosaurus, but it lived roughly 50 million years later than Utahraptor and probably wouldn’t make for a very accurate comparison. This guy made a skeletal restoration of Utahraptor a while back, but according to him it is inaccurate and should not be used as a reference for drawing this dinosaur. (I imagine there are worse places to start, but I still don’t feel quite right recommending it to you as a source. :unsure:)

This blog article (which I’m pretty sure I linked you to previously when I was telling you about Archaeopteryx) contains an image that demonstrates the “do”s and “don’t”s of illustrating Velociraptor, some of which you might be able to apply to Utahraptor (see also my response to your third question, at least as far as feathers are concerned). The same blog author (who is also an artist) also wrote this post regarding fact about dromaeosaurs that is rather ironic, given Screech and Thud’s LBT species name: raptors (Utahraptor especially, in all likelihood) were not particularly well adapted for fast running. But then, it is currently thought that raptors in general were probably more like cats: adapted for short bursts of extreme power rather than prolonged chases. I would think that, like any big cat (and plenty of other animals that aren’t built for fast running but can still readily outpace your average human, such as rhinos, hippos, and grizzly bears), a dromaeosaur could move extremely fast when it wanted to; it just couldn’t keep going for very long. Anyway, the same page has an illustration of Achillobator, a dromaeosaurine from Mongolia that approached Utahraptor in size. I don’t know how much of the illustration is speculative, but it might be an okay reference for your realistic drawing of Screech and Thud.

Well…that was a little more info about Utahraptor than I thought I would be able to provide. Anyway, on to the megatheropods: Tyrannosaurus, Giganotosaurus, and Spinosaurus.

For a good overall guide to these three dinosaurs’ respective anatomies, here are three skeletal restorations, all done by the same person (who I understand to be a rather renowned and extremely knowledgeable paleoartist, so I consider him a trustworthy source):
Tyrannosaurus: skeletals based on both the specimen known as “Sue” and the unusually big-headed individual called “Stan” (Keep in mind that we do not know the actual genders of these specimens, or whether their physical differences are even related to gender.)
Giganotosaurus: The artist notes that one of the most commonly seen skull reconstructions of Giganotosaurus is in fact inaccurate, so be sure to pay close attention to the skull in this image when drawing Gigano’s head.
Spinosaurus: The restoration on top shows the amount of skeletal material actually known from this dinosaur; as you can see, it’s not much.

A lot of my suggestions for accurately drawing Tyrannosaurus, Giganotosaurus, and Spinosaurus applies equally to all three, so rather than describing each dinosaur separately, I’m going to alternate between them as I focus on different general aspects of their anatomy:

Body: From what I’ve heard, Giganotosaurus was slightly bulkier than T. rex (and probably wasn’t as fast or agile), whereas Spinosaurus is apparently believed to have been more lightly built than either. This means that, in a head-to-head Jurassic Park-style brawl, Spinosaurus would be at a disadvantage due to its more delicate build (and specialized jaws that may not have been well suited for attacking large animals). In a more realistic hypothetical confrontation scenario, however, I strongly imagine that T. rex or Giganotosaurus would probably refuse to engage Spinosaurus in a fight in the first place, because Spinosaurus was simply so damn big and intimidating looking that no theropod in its right mind would consider it a remotely good idea to test whether this sail-backed behemoth’s combat prowess was in fact inferior to its own. (See my dissertation on the absurd [IMHO] “T. rex vs. Spinosaurus” debate). This brings me to Spinosaurus’s most distinctive characteristic: its sail. Many pictures you see of Spinosaurus depict the sail as a simple half-disk affixed to the dinosaur’s back, supported by thin vertical rods, much like the sail of Dimetrodon or the dorsal fin of some colossal fish. In fact, Spinosaurus’s sail probably looked rather different. This article contains a photo of the original Spinosaurus sail material (which was later lost in a WWII bombing raid that destroyed the museum where the fossils were kept…yet another reason to hate Zotz-damn war <_<); as you can se, the spines were actually fairly broad, and most scientific restorations show them as being rather close together, which would suggest that the sail was more like a tall, narrow hump than a fin. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if the sail appeared as just a smooth, solid surface in the living animal, with the bony spines buried beneath the skin, as in this illustration. Though much less extensive, the shoulder humps of bison have similar-looking internal skeletal support. Granted, as this article points out, bison shoulder humps are attachment points for muscles that support the head, which was almost certainly not the purpose of Spino’s sail. Spinosaurus. Still, I would recommend drawing Stromer with a smooth humplike sail (See the “Soft tissue” section for an exemplary 3-D restoration and a few more relevant tips). As for the shape of the sail, Spinosaurus’s relatives, such as Suchomimus, had sails that extended all the way from their shoulders to partway down their tails; although these sails were lower than Spinosaurus’s, evidently paleontologists believe that Spino’s sail would have been similarly extensive, and not just a simple semicircle affixed to the back of the torso as in some illustrations. There are already at least three image links in this post showing what the sail is apparently believed to have looked like, so I don’t think I need to elaborate any further.

Teeth: One aspect of accurate theropod illustration that I am perpetually unsure about is how to depict their teeth: exposed, like a crocodilian’s, or concealed by “lips”, like a lizard’s? On one hand, dinosaurs are more closely related to crocodilians, but unlike most dinosaurs, crocodilians live in aquatic habitats where don’t need to worry about their teeth drying out (that’s one argument I’ve heard, at least).
The author of this article examines the various possible configurations of dinosaur “lips” and how they might have covered the teeth: like me, he’s apparently not an academically educated paleontology expert, but his knowledge of the field is well beyond mine, and even I have a hard time comprehending everything in his post. Personally, until more information on the subject becomes available to me, I’ll probably be drawing my theropods with moderate “lips”, with only the tips of the longer teeth protruding. (It might be safe to give Stromer more exposed teeth, considering the possibility that Spinosaurus spent a good amount of its time up to its nostrils in water.) Mind you, reptile “lips” are not like mammalian lips: reptiles (including dinosaurs) have almost no facial musculature whatsoever, so they would not have been able to curl their lips back in a snarl. The equivalent threat display would probably consist of the dinosaur simply opening its mouth, as if to say ”I’mma bite you if you don’t back down!” This is pure speculation, but I imagine that the more threatening the display, the wider the gape; for example: closed mouth = “I’m submissive/I’m calm/You’re not bothering me”, slightly open mouth = “I’m a little worried you’re gonna hurt me/Careful, you’re cheesing me off”, and mouth wide open = “If you’re not running for the other side of Gondwana in three seconds you are DEAD MEAT!” However, I don’t know exactly how far any of these theropods could open their mouths (though if its relative Allosaurus was anything to go by, Giganotosaurus’s gape may have been pretty wide), so be careful not to dislocate your characters’ jaws. Also, don’t forget that theropod teeth were not uniform in size and shape: look closely at the teeth in the illustrations I’ve linked you to to get an idea of how to draw them accurately. Mind you, if you draw Red Claw and/or Gigano with their mouths closed, all of their upper teeth should be overlapping their lower teeth, so none of their lower teeth would be visible. Spinosaurus, on the other hand, had a rosette of teeth in the bulbous section at the end of its lower jaw that, from the looks of things, would have overlapped the corresponding section of its upper jaw when its mouth was closed. (It’s worth remembering that spinosaur teeth were straighter and more conical than those of other theropods, much like the teeth of crocodiles.) This illustration, based on a 2005 reappraisal of Spinosaurus’s skull anatomy, should be a pretty good reference for the teeth, and the head in general.

Heads: Judging from what I consider to be the most accurate Tyrannosaurus illustrations I have seen, T. rex had two bony knobs directly above (and extending slightly behind) its eyes, with two relatively smooth, bar-like ridges extending about a third of the way down the snout in front of them. These bars seem to meet in the middle of the snout, and give way to a knobbly ridge that runs along the midline of the snout, ending slightly behind the nostrils. Giganotosaurus seems to have had more of a short, blunt horn above and in front of the eye. Directly in front of each “horn” was a long, low ridge of very small, close-together bumps that extended about the same length along the snout as T. rex’s ridge and “bar” ornaments combined (possibly even further). The ridges would never join, but they would run very close together, but much closer. Carnosaurs such as Giganotosaurus are well known for having extremely narrow skulls, like giant axes, and are believed to have attacked large prey by opening their jaws wide and rapidly snapping them shut on the fleshy parts of their target’s bodies (such as the thighs and flanks), slicing off gigantic slabs of skin and flesh while avoiding breaking their teeth on the bones. Because their skulls were so narrow, I’m guessing their usual technique was to angle their jaws parallel with the sides of the prey’s body. Following that, I imagine the hunting carnosaur would wait for the prey to weaken a bit, then go in for another bite, repeating the process until the prey was dead and the hunter could dine leisurely. Spinosaurus had a single small crest on the midline of its skull, just in front of its eyes. From the restorations I’ve seen, it was shaped like a slightly peaked semicircle, and seems to have had slight vertical ridges on its surface (almost like a mini version of its sail). It was probably slightly larger in life due to being covered with keratin, and some illustrations I’ve seen depict it as being softly serrated on top. Its nostrils were about midway between its eyes and the tip of its snout. An important thing to remember about dinosaur nostrils (which I remember telling you about before in your art thread): in life, the fleshy nostril openings of dinosaurs were small, and situated at the very front of the bony nostril openings, or nares. Don’t give your dinosaurs huge gaping nostrils. One fascinating theory about Spino’s facial anatomyóthough I am not entirely clear on how widely accepted it isóis that the end of its snout was pockmarked with tiny pits, similar to those found along the jaws of crocodilians, which are sensitive to changes in water pressure and allow them to detect prey swimming nearby (The proposed placement of the pits can be seen in this drawing of Spino’s skull). Maybe one of Spinosaurus’s hunting strategies was to stand in the water with its snout dipped beneath the surface (the high placement of its nostrils allowing it to breathe), patiently waiting for a fish to swim near. When that happened, it could rapidly twist its head and neck or dart its jaws forward to seize the fish. It’s also possible that it could have swum or waded deeper into the water, its head held at an angle so that its eyes and nostrils were exposed, but much of its mouth was underwater. In general, Spinosaurus is believed to have been good at making swift, sharp, precision strikes at smaller prey. There’s even been one discovery of a spinosaur tooth embedded in the backbone of a pterosaur: the owner of the tooth could have been scavenging a dead pterosaur, but the more exciting possibility is is that it snatched the still-living pterosaur right out of the air (or ambushed it on the ground). The proportions of spinosaur jaws are apparently similar to those of gharials (though I can’t help thinking that they look a little more robust), which suggests that they wouldn’t have been very good for attacking large prey. However, it’s possible that Spinosaurus was a canny scavenger, perhaps scaring other predators away from their kills, ripping open the bodies with its powerful arms and giant claws, and sticking its muzzle right into the body cavity, nosing around for the most nutritious innards without needing to pull out for air, thanks to its high-placed nostrils. It’s also been suggested that spinosaurs used their large hand claws to snatch or impale prey, though if you look at restorations, the arms don’t seem quite long enough to do that as effectively or as accurately as the jaws (I’m not even sure if Spinosaurus would have been able to see its own hands that easily). It may have been able to use them to pick up and carry larger prey; some of the fish it probably hunted measured over six feet long.

Hands: When drawing theropod forelimbs, be sure to avoid the all-too-common mistake of “bunny hands syndrome”: drawing the hands pronated, with the arms folded up against the chest and the palms facing backward. No known theropod could hold its hands this way without dislocating its wrists: in general, they held their hands with the palms facing one another, as if poised to clap or holding an invisible basketball. This is the best source I know for understanding the range of movement theropod arms had (I may have told you about all of this before, so forgive me if I am repeating myself). T. rex, as we all know, had only two functional fingers, the second of which (the one on the bottom, if you’re looking at the hand from the side in the afore-described “clapping” pose) was slightly longer than the first. (It did have a vestigial third finger, but that was just a splint of bone that probably wasn’t even visible in life). Relative to its own body, Giganotosaurus’s arms seem to have been about the same size as T. rex’s, though the forearm appears to have been slightly stouter, with three fingers of relatively equal length whose claws were considerably longer than those T. rex. Spinosaurus (if related spinosaurs from which arm material is known are anything to go by) had much burlier arms. Its first finger was shorter than the other two, but bore an extremely long, curved claw that made its overall length (base to claw tip) about the same, if not slightly more. For all three of these dinosaurs, the first finger (the thumb) was angled forward slightly, while the other finger/s pointed more or less straight forward (at least, that’s how they appear when the hand is in profile; I’m guessing that the fingers curled inward somehat and the claws were more curved than you can see in the skeletals).

Soft tissue: Like any modern reptile, bird or mammal, dinosaurs weren’t just skin and a little muscle stretched over a skeleton: they had fat, and loose skin, and muscle tissue that would not be immediately evident from looking at attachment sites on bones, and just places with soft-tissue padding filling in spaces between bones. “Say no to shrink-wrapped dinosaurs!” as I saw one source put it. :lol (Though focusing mainly on sauropods, these articles have some great images and pointers that relate to reconstructing appropriately fleshy dinosaurs.) So don’t draw dinosaurs with visible “windows” (fenestrae, if you want to be technical) in the skull: layer skin over them so that the dinosaur’s face is more or less a smooth surface. Ribs and vertebrae should not be easily distinguishable beneath the skin, and the base of Stromer’s sail should probably be merged with the sides of his body (sort of like if you pushed a CD up through a layer of stretchy fabric, as opposed to jamming the CD down into the back of a clay dinosaur). After all, animals’ vertebrae are generally not covered in form-fitting skin; they have flesh between the neural spines (the vertical bony projections on the midline of the vertebrae, which are extremely elongated in Spinosaurus to form the sail) and the transverse processes (the paired bony projections that stick out from the sides of the vertebrae). Here&#8217;s
Here’s an image of two T-bone steaks (each of which is actually half of a cow’s lumbar vertebra and the meat around it) put back together. Outlined at the bottom is the actual shape of the complete vertebra: the “wings” are the transverse processes and the projection on top is the neural spine; as you can see, there’s plenty of back muscle bridging the gaps between them. And here&#8217;s
here’s a cross section of a cow’s entire torso, again with the vertebra outlined (though the transverse processes are not as long here), and another image showing a cross-section of a human abdomen. The article containing the latter two images points out that dinosaur (or at least sauropod) vertebrae were were not as deeply buried in the animals body as the vertebrae of mammals like cows or humans, and Spinosaurus probably didn’t have a massive wall of meat between the top of its sail and its ribcage, but nonetheless, there probably wasn’t a sharp right angle between the base of the sail and the back. And be sure to give your dinosaurs broad, fleshy tails, like a crocodilian’s. If you look at the base of a croc’s tail, it’s actually wider than the hips. This is due to the caudofemoralis, a large slablike muscle that runs along the sides of the tail and connects to the thighbone via a tendon: the legs of reptilesóincluding dinosaursóare in fact largely powered by the tail muscles. T. rex in particular is believed to have had an extremely muscular tail; it is believed to have been the fastest-running dinosaur of its size thanks to this. This article is the best source I know regarding the caudofemoralis and why paleo-artists should take it into account when drawing dinosaur tails (At the bottom of the page is a good illustration of an accurately fleshy T. rex. Here&#8217;s
Here’s an alternatively colored version on the artist’s DA account, and here&#8217;s
here’s another illustration by the same artist of a T. rex in profile). Here is one 3-D model of a Spinosaurus done by an artist who, as far as I can tell, is trying to make it as accurate as possible (Both the artist and some of the commenters think that the base of the tail should be thicker than it already is). Now that’s one meaty-looking spinosaur! :lol (Honestly, though, I imagine that its bulk would make it look even more imposing and add to the sense of massiveness.) The same artist also has a 3-D model of Tyrannosaurus. (No Giganotosaurus, but it’s worth looking through this guy’s gallery just the same: he does some of the most awesome realistic paleo-art I’ve ever seen.)

Skin: Spinosaurus lived in a warm, humid climate (and may have been semi-aquatic as well), so I would make Stromer scaly. According to one scientific paper I found, Giganotosaurus’s habitat was more temperate, but there’s not much evidence as to what kind of skin it had, so you’d probably be safe drawing Gigano without feathers as well. From what I’ve been able to gather, the climate of Late Cretaceous Montana was subtropical, so adult T. rex may not have needed a feathery coat either. I guess I would leave Red Claw scaly, too (See my response to your next question for more info on fuzzy tyrannosaurs. ;))

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And the main question in relation to that: Were Utahraptors feathered (I'm still convinced Screech and Thud are Utahraptors ) ? I know their smaller relatives were almost certainly feathered primarily for regulating body temperature, but larger animals tend to be better at maintaining body heat without an insulating coat. So were Utahraptors big enough to forsake feathers or did they stay true to their family's feathery heritage ?
Personally, I’d be inclined to put feathers on Utahraptor, for a number of reasons. First, as you said, phylogenetic bracketing: Utahraptor’s smaller, more basal relatives (e.g., Microraptor and Sinornithosaurus) are definitively known to have been feathered (not just feathered, but fluffy all over, down to the tips of the toes and fingers and almost to the end of the snout) and there is evidence that its more derived relative Velociraptor had feathers, too, so it’s almost certain that Utahraptor had feathers at some point in its evolution, and it seems unlikely to me that it would lose them entirely.

Secondly, although it was indeed larger than any other dromaeosaur currently known, I don’t think Utahraptor was so big as to not need an insulating coat. Its estimated weight is apparently around half a ton (1,000–1,100 pounds). That’s about the same weight as a grizzly bear, and yet grizzly bears get along just fine with a full coat of fur (and historically have lived in some rather hot climates, such as Mexico). And I should think that a Utahraptor, with its long, slender limbs and tail, would have a lot more surface area than a grizzly, all the better to disperse excess body heat.

Thirdly, we have an extremely exciting fossil discovery (so exciting that I made a post for it when I heard about it) that presents an argument in favor of big fluffy theropods: Yutyrannus huali, a medium-sized (~30’ long) tyrannosaur that was covered in filamentous feathers up to 6 inches long, the largest confirmed feathered dinosaur known to date. Granted, Yutyrannuss native climate is believed to have been fairly cool by Mesozoic standards, and I don’t know how Utahraptor’s habitat compared. Still, it proves that “big theropod” does not necessarily equal “bald theropod”.

Now, this next line of reasoning isn’t really backed by any scientific sources or research; it’s largely speculation based on various things I know about feathers and thermoregulation: I can’t help but think that a large feathery animal would have an easier time keeping itself cool than a large furry animal, because of the structural differences between feathers and fur. The respective body coverings of both mammals and birds tend to come in two basic types that serve the same purposes: a short, soft, dense underlayer that provides insulation (underfur in mammals, down feathers in birds) and a long, coarse, waterproof layer that protects against the elements (guard hair in mammals, vaned feathers in birds). And for both kinds of animals, excess heat can be dissipated by fluffing out their coats, lifting their hairs or feathers to expose the skin and allow heat to escape. However, it would seem to me that feathers have an advantage over hairs insulation-wise because of their branching structure: not only does the vaned surface of a feather allow it to cover much more surface area than a hair, but a single feather can (to some extent, at least) serve both the insulatory and element-proofing roles by having fluffy branches at the base and vane-forming ones higher up.

Basically, my hypothesis is that a feathery animal (such as a dinosaur) could grow beyond the size where most mammals in the same climate would lose most of their hair, and still retain an insulating layer of feathers, because feathers, unlike hair, can continue to serve an insulating function even if they become sparser in order to keep an animal cool.

It’s rather confusing (even for me :wacko) to explain where I’m coming from, so allow me to attempt to replicate my train of thought and how I came to this conclusion: A single feather covers much more skin than a single hair. > Feathers can be spaced farther apart than hairs (and fewer are needed overall) in order to adequately insulate a given area of skin. > Wider spaces between individual feathers means more bare skin is exposed when the animal fluffs out its coat, allowing the animal to dissipate more heat and cool itself more easily.

Here’s a photo I thought I’d share to help illustrate my point. This summer, when my family and I toured an emu ranch in Nevis, Minnesota, we had the opportunity to see a selection of feathers, skins, eggshells, and other artifacts from a variety of ratites (ostrich, rhea, and of course emu). Among these were a piece of an ostrich skin (the yellow object in these photos*) and an emu skin (the large red-dyed object in both the above photos and these ones). One thing I found striking was just how sparse the feathers on these birds (particularly the ostrich) really are. The little bumps on the skins where the feathers attach are farther apart than the hairs on your arm. Ostriches do in fact have large patches of bare skin underneath their wings and on their sides (as visible in this picture, not taken by me), which are generally covered up when their wings are folded, but can be exposed when the ostrich needs to radiate excess heat. (That ostrich in the photo actually looks like it’s missing some feathers, judging from the goosebumpy patch on its leg; perhaps it’s been molting?) Emus also apparently have sparse or featherless patches on their underbellies, and they can thermoregulate by simply standing up when it’s hot, and sitting down when it’s cold.

It’s possible that some of the larger feathered dinosaurs had similarly placed bald spots that could be covered or exposed at will depending on the circumstances, so you could draw your Utahraptors that way if you wanted. (Alternatively, you could just say that they have featherless patches but keep them hidden. :p) I think it’s also safe to leave the legs unfeathered to at least some extent. As I recall, the ankle joint was the cutoff point for Archaeopteryx’s leg feathers, while ratite feathers stop about halfway between the knee and ankle joint. You can decide for yourself whether you want to go with one of those configurations, or draw your Utahraptors with completely featherless legs. You should probably not omit feathers from the tail, head, or neck, and definitely not from the arms or back.

*Also visible in these photos:
(1, 2) The huge white feather on the left of the first two photos  is from an ostrich, the one in the middle is from a rhea, and the small beige-ish bifurcated feather on the right is from an emu.
(3) An emu eggshell, sitting on top of two dyed skins from emu feet. Above is a stack of hides (with the feathers still attached) from emus of varying ages.
(4) A whole dried emu foot (the “emu foot scepter” :p).


Holy roly-poly star-nosed moley, THAT was one humongous post. :wow

(
[size0]Imagine this guy with really huge, surprised looking eyes, like this: :blink:.)



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StrutEggStealer

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Dunno if this has been asked, but with all your knowledge of dinosaurs, have you considered writing a book about dinosaurs?
Have you tried LBT fanfiction, or dinosaur fanfics of any kind?
"Not all who wander are lost"
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Quote from: StrutEggStealer,Feb 19 2013 on  10:27 AM
Dunno if this has been asked, but with all your knowledge of dinosaurs, have you considered writing a book about dinosaurs?
The thought has probably crossed my mind a few times, though, like most large goals that people have asked me about, I doubt that I could do it very well. I'm not sure what sort of qualifications one needs to have in order to write a dinosaur book (I have an English major and a Biology minor, but no paleontology degree), but even if I do have them, I'm such a dismally slow and inconsistent writer (in that I often procrastinate and often can't muster the willpower, concentration, or passion to write) that it would probably take me ages to do. I also imagine that I would have to contact some real paleontology experts, to learn what it entails to write a proper educational book on dinosaurs. (No, I don't consider myself an expert; personally, I think I'm kind of like a sentient Wikipedia, with banks of data that I'm constantly updating from various external sources, attempting to weed out the info that is outdated or inaccurate. The trouble is that the floors of my memory banks are comprised of sieves, and so I have to constantly brush up on my knowledge to compensate for the fact that I'm constantly forgetting things…) I guess it's something I could feasibly do, but it would take me ages and would be very difficult, and I don't think the final product would stand up to a lot of the books written by real experts. (Obviously my self-esteem wouldn't help push me toward completing such a goal…)

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Have you tried LBT fanfiction, or dinosaur fanfics of any kind?
Well, I've sort of dabbled in writing fragments of a few LBT fanfic ideas I've come up with. I've certainly thought of plenty of concepts for LBT stories, but as with all my ideas, fleshing them out and getting them down on paper (or a computer screen) is much more challenging.

Over the years, I've also come up with several ideas for original stories involving dinosaurs and other animals. Back in the late 90s I had a story set in the late Cretaceous involving a baby Pteranodon that fell from his cliff nest (Pteranodon almost certainly did not nest on cliffs, but that's what I had seen in the books and movies back then) and, after being spooked by a Stygimoloch popping its head out of the bushed, ran into and befriended a Struthiomimus, who helped him find his way back to his home, and afterwards proceeded to have regular adventures with him.

For well over a decade, however, the stories I have focused on the most have been set in a world inhabited by prehistoric and modern animals from throughout Earth’s history. The setting and characters have gone through so many revamps and reimaginings that the current version only faintly resembles the original, and none of the literally dozens of stories I previously completed could be considered canon anymore. Originally the stories took place on an undiscovered island with a vast, Great Valley-esque ring of mountains encircling its interior; modern-day animals lived outside it; prehistoric species inside. The stories were extremely random and cartoonish, with uncountable numbers of extremely simple characters, most of them sharing only a tiny range of personality types. They traveled around in vehicles called “cat-cars” (modeled directly on Sylvester the cat slippers, like these), lived in a giant white building built by a sea lion as a hotel/apartment complex for prehistoric and modern creatures alike, and all of their resources from food to electricity could be spontaneously generated by magician’s hats.

The current incarnation of these stories is (thankfully) much more thought-out and far less ridiculous. The setting is an entire planet rather than an island, I am attempting to limit the number of characters as much as I can, and the animals have no outlandish technology (though one extremely technologically advanced species does feature prominently). The frustrating thing is that I want the world to seem as real as possible, but there are still some fantastical elements that I can’t figure out how to get around. I’m also concerned that there are too many different themes in the stories that readers will have difficulty accepting as compatible. And I’m struggling to figure out how to make the stories relatable to readers, since the world has no humans in it, but I don’t want the significance of encountering living dinosaurs to be lost on the characters. On top of that I want the stories to be as original, interesting, and clichÈ-free as possible. As a result of all these challenges (plus many others), I haven’t been making much progress on these stories, either.



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The thought has probably crossed my mind a few times, though I doubt that I could do it very well. I'm not sure what sort of qualifications one needs to have in order to write a dinosaur book.
I'm such a dismally slow and inconsistent writer that it would probably take me ages to do.
I also imagine that I would have to contact some real paleontology experts, to learn what it entails to write a proper educational book on dinosaurs.

Well, as a fellow procrastinator, I know what you mean by being a slow writer. I have so many stories that I have yet to even type up! :rolleyes:
I didn't mean an actual educational dinosaur book though, so you're safe there, lol

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Over the years, I've also come up with several ideas for original stories involving dinosaurs and other animals. Back in the late 90s I had a story set in the late Cretaceous involving a baby Pteranodon that fell from his cliff nest (Pteranodon almost certainly did not nest on cliffs, but that's what I had seen in the books and movies back then) and, after being spooked by a Stygimoloch popping its head out of the bushed, ran into and befriended a Struthiomimus, who helped him find his way back to his home, and afterwards proceeded to have regular adventures with him.

Now that sounds like something I'd want to read! You got me hooked after Struthiomimus :lol I like the elements, and hope you get around to finishing it!
I tried a sort of Dinotopia approach in one of my stories - humans and dinosaurs living together not-so-peacefully. My main charry was a Dilopho and a cop. One of his friends was a Troodon photographer/geek/blogger, and his love interest was a female Dryosaurus lieutenant. I recently scrapped the idea of dinosaurs and humans and just made it humans, so I definitely see where you're coming from :DD
:goodluck!!
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Quote from: StrutEggStealer,Feb 21 2013 on  10:03 AM
Now that sounds like something I'd want to read! You got me hooked after Struthiomimus :lol I like the elements, and hope you get around to finishing it!
Er…well…sorry to disappoint you, but there's basically no chance of me "finishing" that story. :oops Like I said, it's at least 13 years old, horribly outdated and inaccurate, and far below my current standards of quality.

Incidentally, a few weeks ago, while cleaning the basement, I found two of the original books (read: small stacks of paper stapled together) I had made depicting the story. The story was called "Tear and Struth" (the former pronounced like "pterosaur", not like the water that comes from your eyes :p; the latter pronounced with a long "oo" sound, like "Ruth" ;)), which should give you an idea of my level of creativity for naming my characters. :rolleyes Each page consisted of a pencil drawing with accompanying text (though I had never gotten around to writing the narrative for the later pages), all rather crappy (Granted, I was a preteen when I made it). The storyline consisted of what I previously described, which followed up with the titular duo meeting a friendly Triceratops (with perfectly straight horns, including a nose horn the same length as the other two :huh:) who carried them on its head to the edge of the sea and tossed them into a hollow log, presumably so that they could ride back to the Pteranodon colony. Along the way they were threatened by an Elasmosaurus, which was scared off by a giant pliosaur, which apparently proceeded to capsize their log as it dove underwater, forcing the pair to hitch a whale shark-style ride on a large ichthyosaur (which technically shouldn't have existed in their time period), culminating in them being unceremoniously flung onto the beach much like the gang in LBT V at the end of the shark chase (I can't remember whether I had seen that movie by the time I wrote the story). That's where it cut off; like most of the projects I have ever embarked on, I never finished the story.

Admittedly, I do still like the concept of "Tear and Struth", and it's something I could potentially revisit someday. Finishing the original story is out of the question, but I suppose I could remake it, changing the characters' names and thoroughly reworking the whole thing to make it up to date with what I (and the current paleontological community) now know about dinosaurs. …Actually, the more I think about it, the more the idea of returning to this concept appeals to me. Maybe I could even get it published as some kind of book series (probably for children or young adults), perhaps even with an appendix to each book containing educational content about the prehistoric animals featured in the story. :idea

You know, it amazes me how sometimes I can start out writing a post thinking one thing, and by the time I get to the end I've come up with an entirely new idea or completely changed my opinion. It's one of my favorite things about talking to people on this forum. Thanks so much for the inspiration, StrutEggStealer. :D (If I do write these stories, I'll be sure to name you under "Acknowledgements", maybe even give you a little shout-out of some kind in the story itself. ;))

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I tried a sort of Dinotopia approach in one of my stories - humans and dinosaurs living together not-so-peacefully. My main charry was a Dilopho and a cop. One of his friends was a Troodon photographer/geek/blogger, and his love interest was a female Dryosaurus lieutenant. I recently scrapped the idea of dinosaurs and humans and just made it humans, so I definitely see where you're coming from :DD
:goodluck!!
WHAAAT?! You got rid of the dinosaurs in favor of a human-only story? That's madness! :wow

Just kidding; I'm sure you had your reasons, even if I can't comprehend them. :p Personally, I just can't write humans. Every human I think I've ever depicted in anything I've written was either an insert of myself or my siblings, or more two-dimensional and characterization-free than the paper they were on. I still have trouble grasping how normal people think and function in real life; creating original human characters that aren't just splinters of my own personality is all but impossible for me. :oops



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Quote from: Pangaea,Mar 4 2013 on  05:04 PM
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The story was called "Tear and Struth" (the former pronounced like "pterosaur", not like the water that comes from your eyes :p; the latter pronounced with a long "oo" sound, like "Ruth" ;))

Lol, Ruth is my name, another reason I have an affinity for the Struthios :DD

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The storyline consisted of what I previously described, which followed up with the titular duo meeting a friendly Triceratops (with perfectly straight horns, including a nose horn the same length as the other two :huh:) who carried them on its head to the edge of the sea and tossed them into a hollow log, presumably so that they could ride back to the Pteranodon colony. Along the way they were threatened by an Elasmosaurus, which was scared off by a giant pliosaur, which apparently proceeded to capsize their log as it dove underwater, forcing the pair to hitch a whale shark-style ride on a large ichthyosaur (which technically shouldn't have existed in their time period), culminating in them being unceremoniously flung onto the beach.

Sounds like fun, though. Active, flowing storyline, sure to keep the readers interest.
OMG, I'm sorry! Whenever I hear the phrase "I write" immediately, my brain clicks on, and I prepare PHeedback, and I fire off a barrage of questions trying to convince the other to either publish and/or illustrate this story to add more creative awesomeness to the world :DD

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Personally, I just can't write humans. Every human I think I've ever depicted in anything I've written was either an insert of myself or my siblings, or more two-dimensional and characterization-free than the paper they were on. I still have trouble grasping how normal people think and function in real life; creating original human characters that aren't just splinters of my own personality is all but impossible for me. :oops

Lol like I said, it was coming off too much like Dinotopia ;) but I wonder how it would have turned out using dinosaurs... I still use anthros and saurians in my stories, though. I have one story about a GE-Troodon-Deinonychus hybrid raised in a lab who eventually escapes and is taken in by a human couple - basically about his journey to have a normal life since he has almost genius IQ, can speak - stutter XP - and is able to reason. I like stuff like that :3

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Thanks so much for the inspiration, StrutEggStealer. :D (If I do write these stories, I'll be sure to name you under "Acknowledgements", maybe even give you a little shout-out of some kind in the story itself. ;))

Aw, thanks. I'm glad I could be of help. As mentioned above, I go all out on the story process. I really, really want to see stuff like that work out, and I try try try to see it fulfilled. I'm glad I didn't come off as overbearing, too XDD
... unless I did... O_o
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Pangaea

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Quote from: StrutEggStealer,Mar 5 2013 on  10:46 AM
Aw, thanks. I'm glad I could be of help. As mentioned above, I go all out on the story process. I really, really want to see stuff like that work out, and I try try try to see it fulfilled. I'm glad I didn't come off as overbearing, too XDD
... unless I did... O_o
Of course you didn't! I'm actually glad that you told me that you hoped I would finish the story; otherwise I wouldn't have felt obliged to tell you: "Sorry, but that's never gonna happen; the story I started is way too old now for me to just continue working on it," then: "Well, I guess I could conceivably continue working on it if I remade the whole thing, but it was such a silly idea that that's unlikely to happen. Here, let me tell you more about why it was so bad…", and finally: "Wait a minute, this could be a viable story after all; something I might actually be able to get published!"

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Lol like I said, it was coming off too much like Dinotopia ;) but I wonder how it would have turned out using dinosaurs...
Personally, I think the world of fiction could use a lot more stories about humans and dinosaurs that aren't just all about them killing one another. :p



Pronounced "pan-JEE-uh". Spelled with three A's. Represented by a Lystrosaurus.


The Chronicler

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I'm sure it's obvious by now that your favorite science subject is biology or palaeontology. My question is, what are your thoughts on something like physics?

(The reason I'm asking is because my favorite science subject is physics and astronomy while I was never any good in biology, and I've got the suspicion that your interests may be the exact opposite of mine. Not that it's a bad thing in any way, I can assure you. :) )

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My first fanfiction: Quest for the Energy Stones
My unfinished and canceled second fanfiction: Quest for the Mask of Life
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Pangaea, have you watched Extreme Dinosaurs? :DD  :p  :lol  :smile
I like to watch Dino Squad, Street Sharks, Sabrina's Secret Life, Extreme Dinosaurs, Sonic Underground, Transformers Prime, Power Rangers, Yugioh, Phineas and Ferb, Digimon, Cardfight Vanguard, Land Before Time (14 Films and TV Series) and I like to play Zuma Deluxe


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Wow I never thanked the answer!Well thanks!

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if female Tyrannosaurus did turn out to be bigger than the males, that wouldn’t necessarily mean the same was true of all theropods.

Indeed it's like saying all male fish is smaller than female fish becose of only one example.Lol don't know why I haven't thought about that when I wrote that.


Those facts about t-rex were very interesting.I always thought that it was proven that female t-rexes were bigger,since not only documentary films show it,but also people see it as proven fact on forums about dinosaurs.


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Now I can’t help but mentally compare male Pteranodon bills to jousting lances. Jousting Pteranodons…now there’s a cool image for you (As if pterosaurs weren’t awesome enough already dino_laugh.gif).

 :lol  Jousting Pteranodons would be quite a sight,though I wonder how they would fly in those shiny armors.


Finaly I have another question for you :smile
I  read a very interesting thing about a dinosaur called Homalocephale.The strange thing about the bones of this species is the unusually wide hips.Some asume it as a protection from impacts,while others think that this dino were viviparous.Yep,instead of eggs,viviparous.This sound very strange to me becose I haven't heard about dinosaurs being  viviparous before.(also,for me it's strange that if all of them had those hips,than why males needed those if the viviparous theory is true.Maybe all specimen found were female,or even males had smaller,but still large hips compared to others,but still it sounds weird for me.)What do you think about this theory?Do you think that it can be true?Also,have you ever heard about viviparous dinosaurs before?

Ok,that's 2 question. :p


Ptyra

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So this is a debate my boyfriend and I have every time we end up talking about dinosaurs. Basically:
Him: Deinoncyus can take down a tyrannosaurus rex. They work in packs, are fast, and are smart. It would be like wolves attacking a really big moose.

Me: No they couldn't. Tyrannosaurus could crush them like bugs. Yes, deinonychus are smart, but smart enough to know that they should stay the f*** away from tyrannosaurus rex. They know they would get their tails handed to them. I can imagine they'd attack a small one, but not a fully grown adult! It's what they did with sauropods-attack the small ones. (I never brought this up to him, realizing it later, that wolves don't hunt healthy moose, but elderly/sick/wounded moose. They'd be crazy to go after a healthy one.) And as thick as their claws are, I'm not sure they can get through a T-Rex enough to kill it.

This came up yesterday at a restaurant and I even asked the waiter his opinion. He agreed with my boyfriend.


But since you're so full of dinosaur knowledge, I was wondering about your opinion.


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Remember the days when I used to answer questions? Yeah, me neither. :rolleyes :bang

Quote from: The Chronicler,Apr 2 2013 on  05:50 PM
I'm sure it's obvious by now that your favorite science subject is biology or palaeontology. My question is, what are your thoughts on something like physics?

(The reason I'm asking is because my favorite science subject is physics and astronomy while I was never any good in biology, and I've got the suspicion that your interests may be the exact opposite of mine. Not that it's a bad thing in any way, I can assure you. :) )
Physics is one of those subjects that I find intriguing, but not quite to the point that I want to research it fervently. I love watching physics demonstrations, and I always enjoy the physics explanations given on MythBusters (which, incidentally, is where I picked up most of what I know about physics). I honestly wish I had a broader knowledge of physics, but I don’t think there’s enough room in my head. :wacko


Quote from: Path Light,Jun 14 2013 on  01:08 AM
Pangaea, have you watched Extreme Dinosaurs? :DD  :p  :lol  :smile
Short answer: no. :p (Not sure if you’ll ever see this response anyway. :neutral)


Quote from: Blais_13,Aug 7 2013 on  06:19 PM
I  read a very interesting thing about a dinosaur called Homalocephale.The strange thing about the bones of this species is the unusually wide hips.Some asume it as a protection from impacts,while others think that this dino were viviparous.Yep,instead of eggs,viviparous.This sound very strange to me becose I haven't heard about dinosaurs being  viviparous before.(also,for me it's strange that if all of them had those hips,than why males needed those if the viviparous theory is true.Maybe all specimen found were female,or even males had smaller,but still large hips compared to others,but still it sounds weird for me.)What do you think about this theory?Do you think that it can be true?Also,have you ever heard about viviparous dinosaurs before?
I think I vaguely recall hearing about the idea that pachycephalosaurs (and I think sauropods too) were viviparous or ovoviviparous. It is an interesting subject to ponder, considering how many times viviparity and ovoviparity have independently evolved in vertebrates, from sharks, to bony fish, to amphibians, to lizards, to snakes, to synapsids. Birds are one of the few exceptions, probably at least partly because it’s easier to fly when not burdened with developing offspring, though I’ve also heard that anatomical constraints may be a factor; namely, the structure of the avian eggshell and uterus, which supposedly would make oxygen exchange within the parent’s body virtually impossible. Also, according to one book I’ve read (The Complete Dinosaur, Second Edition), archosaurs may have been evolutionary “canalized into obligate oviparity” due to their unique reproductive tract. You see, in most oviparous amniotes, eggs remain stationary in the uterus as each set of membranes, and ultimately the outer shell, forms around them sequentially. Archosaurs, however, have a uterus structured like an assembly line: the eggs are constantly moving, with different regions of the uterus depositing membranes and shells around them as they pass through. The argument is that this system precludes eggs from being retained within the uterus for any length of time, and so ovoviparity or viviparity could never evolve in an archosaur.

Admittedly, I have some reservations about this hypothesis: First, if there’s anything I’ve learned about evolution, it’s that it’s far more creative and resourceful than we humans can imagine or predict
(although it must be said that I know very little about the biology of viparity, and if I understood it better I might be more convinced of these projected limitations). Second, although all living crocodilians (the only other surviving archosaurs besides birds) lay eggs, they have a system of laying large numbers of small eggs (from 20 to more than 100) at once, whereas most birds produce smaller clutches over a period of several days (for example, the snowy owl lays one egg every two days or so, for a total clutch size of three to eleven eggs or even more, depending on the availability of food). As for dinosaurs, both methods were evidently used: sauropods laid eggs en masse, while troodontids laid them sequentially. Until I am further enlightened on the evolution of ovoviparity and the limitations of the crocodilian reproductive tract, the fact that crocodilians evidently retain their eggs within their bodies for at least a brief period of time implies to me that there is some potential for ovoviparity to evolve, which may also hold true for dinosaurs…maybe. Third, there was a group of Mesozoic crocodylomophs, the metriorhynchids, that were highly specialized for marine life. The Mesozoic’s other major marine reptile groupsóichthyosaurs, plesiosaurs, and mosasaursóare all conclusively known to have been live-bearers, but no such evidence is available for metriorhynchids, so it’s not known whether they crawled ashore to lay eggs like sea turtles or if they had overcome the supposed restrictions of the archosaurian assembly-line uterus and evolved live birth. If it is the latter, then the possibility that some dinosaurs could have been viviparous or ovoviparous would seem more plausible (though it would not prove that any of them actually were).

An alternative explanation for the wide hip canal of pachycephalosaurs like Homalocephale is that it would have allowed for a longer, roomier digestive tract. Pachycephalosaur teeth and jaws were poorly equipped for chewing, so a longer gut would presumably have been advantageous for helping them digest their food as thoroughly as possible and make the most of its nutritional content.

I have not been able to find any information on pachycephalosaur eggs; it could be that none have yet been discovered. Pachycephalosaurs themselves are known mostly from their skull domes; very few body fossils have been found, so they are rather poorly known compared to other dinosaur groups. I haven’t heard live-bearing discussed seriously among paleontologists as a possibility for pachycephalosaurs, and for that reason I personally doubt it myself, but there does not yet seem to be any concrete evidence either for or against this hypothesis (None that I know about, anyway). In summary, I think it’s unlikely that pachycephalosaurs were viviparous or ovoviviparous, but I don’t believe it is impossible that they were.


Quote from: Ptyra,Aug 9 2013 on  02:01 PM
So this is a debate my boyfriend and I have every time we end up talking about dinosaurs. Basically:
Him: Deinoncyus can take down a tyrannosaurus rex. They work in packs, are fast, and are smart. It would be like wolves attacking a really big moose.

Me: No they couldn't. Tyrannosaurus could crush them like bugs. Yes, deinonychus are smart, but smart enough to know that they should stay the f*** away from tyrannosaurus rex. They know they would get their tails handed to them. I can imagine they'd attack a small one, but not a fully grown adult! It's what they did with sauropods-attack the small ones. (I never brought this up to him, realizing it later, that wolves don't hunt healthy moose, but elderly/sick/wounded moose. They'd be crazy to go after a healthy one.) And as thick as their claws are, I'm not sure they can get through a T-Rex enough to kill it.

This came up yesterday at a restaurant and I even asked the waiter his opinion. He agreed with my boyfriend.

But since you're so full of dinosaur knowledge, I was wondering about your opinion.
Well, even ignoring the fact that Deinonychus and Tyrannosaurus lived more than 30 million years apart and never could have encountered one another, I seriously doubt that a group of Deinonychus (or equivalently sized period-appropriate dromaeosaurs) would chance attacking a fully grown T. rex under anything approximating normal circumstances.

To envision how such a scenario would play out realistically, I don’t think it’s as important to consider whether the dromaeosaurs could do it, but whether they would do it. Sure, a pack of dromaeosaurs could kill a T. rex if it just stood there and did nothing to fight back, or if it had fallen and broken its neck, but attacking a healthy adult Tyrannosaurus fully capable of defending itself? That goes against just about every rule in the predator’s playbook.

It’s true that many predators will attack prey larger than themselves at times, and not necessarily only weak individuals (though those do make easier targets), but because of the inherent risk of injury, they will usually only do so if they have some sort of advantage over the prey. For example, a pack of wolves may occasionally attack a healthy adult moose, but they will probably first engage it in a prolonged chase to tire it out, allowing for an easier kill. Or it could be a matter of strategy, whether simply ambushing the prey and attacking its weak spot, or progressively learning over time (even generations) the most efficient way to hunt a certain prey item.

Predator-prey conflicts in nature are seldom anything like the head-to-head, videogame-style battles many people imagine them to be. Nor were dinosaurs supernaturally powerful, dragon-like juggernauts with some magical ability to destroy anything they sunk their pointy appendages into. As magnificent and fascinating as dinosaurs were, they were still animals, and even the most formidable among them would have had the same self-preservation instincts and predatory pragmatism as any of their present-day counterparts.

For the record, I shouldn’t think the Deinonychus would have a problem penetrating a tyrannosaur’s hide; studies of tooth marks on Tenontosaurus bones suggest that the bite force of Deinonychus was stronger than that of a spotted hyena, and in fact it may have been their jaws rather than their claws that were their primary killing tool. If dromaeosaurs did use their sickle claws for killing, then they probably would have targeted the throat, where a slash or puncture wound would be the most lethal. When dealing with large prey, it’s in a predator’s best interest to avoid a drawn-out struggle (again, because of the risk of injury). A precision strike that quickly kills or cripples the prey is usually the best option. Even a prey animal that has been mortally wounded may still be able to fight back or flee (I saw one video of a zebra whose belly was torn open by a crocodile while crossing a river, but it still made it to land and escaped, though it probably died later), but severing the arteries, spine, or windpipe (or, in the case of the latter, constricting it or otherwise preventing air from reaching the lungs) will put a struggling animal out of commission almost immediately. If you were to examine the killing styles of all predatory tetrapods that hunt other vertebrates capable of wounding them, you would find that most employ some variation of this technique to some extent. Cats, weasels, and falcons break their prey’s necks. Crocodiles drown their prey. Cheetahs clamp antelopes’ windpipes shut. Polar bears crush seals’ skulls. Pythons constrict their prey’s lungs. Wolves bite moose in areas that bleed out rapidly, and sometimes attempt to clamp their muzzles closed. And so on.

Another rule of thumb for most hunters is to be economical. Since many hunts end in failure even at the best of times, predators choose targets that they perceive as taking the least amount of effort to bring down with the greatest payout of food. (Even an ambush predator such as an angel shark will pass up a fish that swims within striking distance if it is too large to swallow, as hilariously demonstrated at 22:33 in this documentary, where an oblivious halibut settles down right on top of a camouflaged angel shark. :lol) From a dromaeosaur’s perspective, a T. rex may be an enormous source of meat, but it is also such a powerful and dangerous creature that there is a high probability that the attack will be unsuccessful, and potentially even fatal. The mere presence of such an enormous carnivore would imply that there is enough food in the vicinity to sustain it (unless the encounter occurs during a famine), in which case there is bound to be easier prey for the dromaeosaurs to take their chances with.

There’s also the size difference to consider. Estimating dinosaur mass appears to be an incredibly tricky and debatable business, but all figures I have seen for Deinonychus’s weight fall between 100 and 200 pounds (mostly 150–160 pounds), while estimates for Tyrannosaurus range from 4 to 9 tons. Even if you assume a high-end weight for Deinonychus and a low-end weight for T. rex, the Deinonychus would be taking on a creature 40 times their weight. By comparison, the average wolf weighs 50–100 pounds, while moose fall between 400 and 1,800 pounds. Even a worst-case scenario for the wolvesóa pack of 50-pounders going after a record-pushing mooseówould have closer weight ratios than the aforementioned large Deinonychus attacking a small T. rex.

There’s another present-day case of predators collaborating to bring down enormous prey that may be even more comparable to the Deinonychus vs. Tyrannosaurus scenario: The Savuti lions of Botswana, a population that specializes in hunting elephants. (This behavior was famously featured in an episode of the BBC natural history series Planet Earth; if you’ve never seen it, watch it here, though perhaps not if you’re easily disturbed.) There are several caveats, however. First and foremost, these lions have developed specialized elephant-hunting techniques over the last few decades; they started with calves, and have “graduated” over the years to hunting subadults, and eventually fully grown elephants. Nearly all of their hunts take place at night, when the lions have a major sight advantage over the elephants. They also seem to employ psychological scare tactics, roaring in the dark to panic their prey into fleeing, whereupon the pride can attack the elephant from behind, forcing it to the ground and killing it. And finally, elephants are fairly abundant animals in the lions’ environment; a massive food source that few other predators can take advantage of. Even in 1990, researchers estimated that elephant accounted for 20% of the Savuti lions’ diet, a percentage which has probably risen since then. By comparison, Tyrannosaurus rex, an apex predator in its environment, would have been quite rare, so there wouldn’t be many individuals for dromaeosaurs to practice hunting; given their position in the food web, they would have been less inclined to flee from a much smaller foe; and their senses were probably comparable to those of dromaeosaurs, or at the very least dromaeosaur night vision was nowhere near as superior to tyrannosaurs’ as lions’ night vision is to elephants’.

And there’s one more reason why the argument of the wolves hunting moose and lions hunting elephants does not apply to the scenario of Deinonychus attacking T. rex: as big and powerful as moose and elephants are, they are still herbivores. Certainly herbivores can be extremely dangerous (indeed, I cannot emphasize enough that the common perception of “herbivore = peaceful/harmless” is utterly, grievously wrong), they do not make a living by killing. Predators are natural assassins: everything about themótheir bodies, their senses, their reflexes, and the skills they learn throughout lifeóare honed for dispatching other animals as quickly and efficiently as possible. Every time they feed (assuming scavenging or kleptoparasitism is not involved), they must put these skills and tools into practice, while at the same time running the risk of injury or death at the proverbial hands of their prey. Naturally, most are equally adept at utilizing their natural arsenals in self-defense. A pack of Deinonychus that dared to attack a Tyrannosaurus would be taking on a highly proficient killer with a massive size advantage and perhaps two decades of hunting experience (the amount of time T. rex is thought to have taken to reach full size). With the possible exception of a large ankylosaur or giant sauropod, that’s just about the most hazardous prey they could choose to tackle, if you ask me. :blink:

I could imagine a group of dromaeosaurs mobbing a big tyrannosaur, motivating it to move elsewhere (much as small birds will harass a bird of prey or some rodents will drive off snakes), and maybe a particularly large and persistent bunch could even pester one to the point that it abandons its kill and lets them have it, but as far as attacking a T. rex as prey, unless it was extremely weak or wounded, and the dromaeosaurs were absolutely desperate, I can’t see it happening.



Pronounced "pan-JEE-uh". Spelled with three A's. Represented by a Lystrosaurus.


Ptyra

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Pff, of course the bites are on a Tenontosaurus :lol . I'm not surprised there. Hello, gazelles of the time.

But yeah, that's pretty much my stance, and it's good to see it in more informed detail :) .


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After seeing (well, mostly reading :p) how much fun you had with the bats, where do you suppose your next trip will take you :)?


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Quote from: Ptyra,Sep 14 2013 on  09:25 PM
Pff, of course the bites are on a Tenontosaurus :lol . I'm not surprised there. Hello, gazelles of the time.
Well, I wouldn't say Tenontosaurus was much of a gazelle analogue; :p it was closer to the size of a large horse (a horse with a tail one-and-a-half times the length of the rest of its body). Poor, poor Tenontosaurus…ever since the skeleton of one was found associated with a group of Deinonychus, it has been cursed to never occupy a piece of paleoart without being set upon by a pack of ravenous raptors. :( Spread the word: be kind to Tenontosaurus in your artwork! Let it be something more than just theropod fodder!

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But yeah, that's pretty much my stance, and it's good to see it in more informed detail :) .
You're welcome. ;) One more thing I forgot to mention: I suppose a group of dromaeosaurs might conceivably approach (and maybe attack) a T. rex if they were infected with the dinosaurian equivalent of Toxoplasma gondii (a protozoan parasite that removes rodents' fear of cats), but it probably wouldn't end well for them. :p

Quote from: Cancerian Tiger,Sep 14 2013 on  11:30 PM
After seeing (well, mostly reading :p) how much fun you had with the bats, where do you suppose your next trip will take you :)?
That's hard to say…My family has spent a lot of money this year, so we may not be able to afford another big trip for a while. :neutral I may do some minor traveling in the last week of October: apparently the Forest Service (at least in Minnesota) is planning a week-long celebration of bats just before Halloween, and one of its employees who had met me when I was volunteering at the aquarium on Endangered Species Day recently contacted me asking if I would like to volunteer at a facility at Sugarloaf Cove along the North Shore of Lake Superior during that week. I'm definitely interested, but if things don't work out I may just end up staying home and doing my part at the Great Lakes Aquarium (which will also be hosting "Bat Week"-related events and are a little reluctant to let go of me :lol).



Pronounced "pan-JEE-uh". Spelled with three A's. Represented by a Lystrosaurus.